"Ó Ríordáin’s hopes for drug decriminalisation"

Walter Bishop · 03-11-2015 05:03PM

JustTheOne wrote: »

So thats the only advantage?

Hardly will help the actual drug problem.

Well, the police prosecuting every Tom, Dick and Harry for small amounts of weed is hardly stamping out the drug problem now, is it?

If people want to take drugs, they're going to obtain and take them, legal or no. The way to reducing drug use is to educate people about the dangers, not waste resources on prosecuting small amounts, and ultimately legalise and regulate it.

Prohibition has never worked and never will. Portugal decriminalised drugs in 2001, and opted to treat users as patients requiring treatment, rather than criminals requiring punishment. The result: drug abuse dropped by around 50%.

Jayop · 03-11-2015 05:32PM

Some of the comments on the IT facebook posts about this are hilarious. Totally clueless people with their head in the sand and an attitude about drugs they've retained since they learned about the evils of marijuana in school in the 70's and 80's.

The Pheasant2 · 03-11-2015 05:37PM

Jayop wrote: »

Some of the comments on the IT facebook posts about this are hilarious. Totally clueless people with their head in the sand and an attitude about drugs they've retained since they learned about the evils of marijuana in school in the 70's and 80's.

Yeah there also needs to be a massive overhaul in drug education in schools in this country.

The current system consists of "Drugs are bad m'kay; don't do 'em."
Which is tantamount to telling kids that abstinence is the safest form of sex ie. It's pointless and only spreads misinformation.

Jayop · 03-11-2015 05:44PM

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Yeah there also needs to be a massive overhaul in drug education in schools in this country.

The current system consists of "Drugs are bad m'kay; don't do 'em."
Which is tantamount to telling kids that abstinence is the safest form of sex ie. It's pointless and only spreads misinformation.

Big time. Look, I did pretty much everything bar Heroin/Meth in my young days with a particular fondness for a Saturday night E. In the last 10 years i wouldn't think I've taken anything stronger than a paracetamol more than twice though and even when I was taking it was never more than recreational and didn't effect my ability to go to school or work. Never caused anyone any trouble, never got in fights, never robbed anyone and honestly I had a fecking blast. I don't mind saying that but I've sine grown up.

Now I find myself at a point in life where I have kids and the eldest is a young teen so she'll soon be getting introduced to the things that I took myself. I have a difficult choice to make, do I be a complete hypocrite and tell her drugs are all awful and she should stay well clear of them or should I be honest and explain the true issues with them in modern Ireland and try to discourage them that way?

For me the biggest reason I stopped was because I moved from the North to the South and I didn't really know anyone to get them off and my social circle changed. Then once I had kids I didn't want to have a reputation as a "druggie" in a small town when they grew up.

What are the biggest dangers of taking drugs in Ireland?

Sleepy · 03-11-2015 05:58PM

Depends on the drugs but for marijuana, the biggest danger would probably be the risk of a criminal record if found in possession of any amount whatsoever.

Colorado have proved fairly conclusively the values of legalising weed imo. Those massive gains in tax revenue have come straight out of the pockets of criminal gangs. That's a definitive win-win.

The Pheasant2 · 03-11-2015 05:59PM

Jayop wrote: »

Big time. Look, I did pretty much everything bar Heroin/Meth in my young days with a particular fondness for a Saturday night E. In the last 10 years i wouldn't think I've taken anything stronger than a paracetamol more than twice though and even when I was taking it was never more than recreational and didn't effect my ability to go to school or work. Never caused anyone any trouble, never got in fights, never robbed anyone and honestly I had a fecking blast. I don't mind saying that but I've sine grown up.

Now I find myself at a point in life where I have kids and the eldest is a young teen so she'll soon be getting introduced to the things that I took myself. I have a difficult choice to make, do I be a complete hypocrite and tell her drugs are all awful and she should stay well clear of them or should I be honest and explain the true issues with them in modern Ireland and try to discourage them that way?

For me the biggest reason I stopped was because I moved from the North to the South and I didn't really know anyone to get them off and my social circle changed. Then once I had kids I didn't want to have a reputation as a "druggie" in a small town when they grew up.

What are the biggest dangers of taking drugs in Ireland?

E in particular is one that needs a huge shift in the way kids are taught about it.
I study medicinal chemistry in uni so learn exactly how it works, mechanism of action etc. and so I'd take an active interest in researching heavily any drugs that I take and how to minimise any harm.

MDMA (E, yokes etc.) is actually very safe provided it is used responsibly (at least 2 month gaps between uses, and proper supplementation to reduce any neurotoxic effects) and that it is in fact MDMA that's being used -
EVERY SINGLE person should know that they should always test whatever they have to make absolutely certain they're taking what they think they're taking.

Tests kits can be purchased very cheaply and freely here: http://www.eztest.com
and provide priceless peace of mind.

The sad thing is that in my experience the overwhelming majority of people know nothing about how often is safe to use or about needing to test. They've been failed by their education system and are in more danger from drugs because of the education they received.

If I were you I'd simply explain to my daughter the risks objectively and that testing everything and researching harm reduction fully is absolutely paramount.

In the case of MDMA www.rollsafe.org is a great resource for harm reduction and I'd encourage anybody considering its use to read it fully.

RDM_83 again · 03-11-2015 06:03PM

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Well, the police prosecuting every Tom, Dick and Harry for small amounts of weed is hardly stamping out the drug problem now, is it?

If people want to take drugs, they're going to obtain and take them, legal or no. The way to reducing drug use is to educate people about the dangers, not waste resources on prosecuting small amounts, and ultimately legalise and regulate it.

Prohibition has never worked and never will. Portugal decriminalised drugs in 2001, and opted to treat users as patients requiring treatment, rather than criminals requiring punishment. The result: drug abuse dropped by around 50%.

I am a bit wary of the Portugal worship that always happens in these threads not because I am strongly ideologically opposed but because you are looking at a reduction in a country that apparently had barely any harm reduction/anti drugs programmes before this and a geographic position that was an issue.

For the middle point you make, I know from experience of my acquaintances more of them consumed "legal highs" and more regularly and in larger amounts when those were available compared to when you could only get their illegal analogues.

03-11-2015 06:04PM

There is no problem with weed in this country. People lumping it in with "the drug problem" proves how uneducated they actually are on the subject.

Smoking and alcohol are a million times more of a "problem" for the health of Irish people and there isn't nearly as much stigma.

RDM_83 again · 03-11-2015 06:06PM

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

E in particular is one that needs a huge shift in the way kids are taught about it.
I study medicinal chemistry in uni so learn exactly how it works, mechanism of action etc. and so I'd take an active interest in researching heavily any drugs that I take and how to minimise any harm.

MDMA (E, yokes etc.) is actually very safe provided it is used responsibly (at least 2 month gaps between uses, and proper supplementation to reduce any neurotoxic effects) and that it is in fact MDMA that's being used -
EVERY SINGLE person should know that they should always test whatever they have to make absolutely certain they're taking what they think they're taking.

Tests kits can be purchased very cheaply and freely here: http://www.eztest.com
and provide priceless peace of mind.

The sad thing is that in my experience the overwhelming majority of people know nothing about how often is safe to use or about needing to test. They've been failed by their education system and are in more danger from drugs because of the education they received.

If I were you I'd simply explain to my daughter the risks objectively and that testing everything and researching harm reduction fully is absolutely paramount.

In the case of MDMA www.rollsafe.org is a great resource for harm reduction and I'd encourage anybody considering its use to read it fully.

while true its low risk has anybody done work on the effects of MDMA on adolescents brains?
Isn't the case with THC that its fairly low harm, if one has an adult brain? (edit) But surprisingly negative to juveniles

Jayop · 03-11-2015 06:09PM

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

E in particular is one that needs a huge shift in the way kids are taught about it.
I study medicinal chemistry in uni so learn exactly how it works, mechanism of action etc. and so I'd take an active interest in researching heavily any drugs that I take and how to minimise any harm.

MDMA (E, yokes etc.) is actually very safe provided it is used responsibly (at least 2 month gaps between uses, and proper supplementation to reduce any neurotoxic effects) and that it is in fact MDMA that's being used -
EVERY SINGLE person should know that they should always test whatever they have to make absolutely certain they're taking what they think they're taking.

Tests kits can be purchased very cheaply and freely here: http://www.eztest.com
and provide priceless peace of mind.

The sad thing is that in my experience the overwhelming majority of people know nothing about how often is safe to use or about needing to test. They've been failed by their education system and are in more danger from drugs because of the education they received.

If I were you I'd simply explain to my daughter the risks objectively and that testing everything and researching harm reduction fully is absolutely paramount.

In the case of MDMA www.rollsafe.org is a great resource for harm reduction and I'd encourage anybody considering its use to read it fully.

If I was still at them I'd 100% be using the test kits nowadays.

With your chemistry knowledge you'd know a lot more about this than me, but I've been reading that a recent spike in people dying as a result of taking E is because it's not always MDMA anymore. They're other compounds that the manufacturers are forced to make because the EU drugs admins have banned the precursor to MDMA. This attempt to make it harder to make what was a pretty safe drug have forced them to make the more dangerous varieties and as a result have let to multiple deaths.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/05/superman-pill-ecstasy-pma-deaths-drugs-policy

This is why I've long been of the opinion that if you want to take something like E, you should be able to go to your doctor for a check up, get a prescription and get a clean drug from your local pharmacy.

Jayop · 03-11-2015 06:11PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

while true its low risk has anybody done work on the effects of MDMA on adolescents brains?
Isn't the case with THC that its fairly low harm, if one has an adult brain?

Put the resources currently being wasted on the war on drugs into studies like this.

The Pheasant2 · 03-11-2015 06:41PM

Jayop wrote: »

If I was still at them I'd 100% be using the test kits nowadays.

With your chemistry knowledge you'd know a lot more about this than me, but I've been reading that a recent spike in people dying as a result of taking E is because it's not always MDMA anymore. They're other compounds that the manufacturers are forced to make because the EU drugs admins have banned the precursor to MDMA. This attempt to make it harder to make what was a pretty safe drug have forced them to make the more dangerous varieties and as a result have let to multiple deaths.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/05/superman-pill-ecstasy-pma-deaths-drugs-policy

This is why I've long been of the opinion that if you want to take something like E, you should be able to go to your doctor for a check up, get a prescription and get a clean drug from your local pharmacy.

Yep you're dead right - anyone who's ever died of an "E overdose" weren't actually taking E (MDMA). When you hear of these deaths the culprit is most commonly PMA or PMMA which is vastly more neurotoxic than MDMA and also has a longer "come up" time so people might take one, not feel anything, take another, still not feel anything and take another before eventually succumbing to it's toxic effects.
The exact lethal dose for MDMA in humans is actually unknown; but what is known is that it's very high ie. you'd have to take a ludicrous amount of pills (we're talking ~20+) to overdose.

Deaths that are attributable to MDMA however come from people overheating from dancing too much without a break and not rehydrating - an issue easily solved with proper education.

Any danger from PMA or PMMA laced pills is completely nullified by test kits as these compounds show up if present.
So if everybody is testing their stuff dealers probably wouldn't even bother with the PMA as they know they'll be found out and will sell nothing.

captbarnacles · 03-11-2015 06:51PM

Good read here:

https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/

suicide_circus · 03-11-2015 07:08PM

A christopher hitches quote from 1996 when a poll in america suggested voters were in favour of decriminalisation;

"I'm very heartened to find that in spite of all the incessant, ridiculous, hateful, self-evidently contradictory propaganda about "the war on drugs" that when American voters are asked about it it shows this prpaganda has had no effect. It really cheers me up to think that. It restores ones faith in the thinking voter. I think decriminalization of drugs is long long overdue, it will be looked back on when it is done as: "What was all that about? How did we let Richard Nixon declare a "war on drugs" and ruin so much of our society, throw away so many of our liberties, incarcerate so many innocent people, deny ourselves - in the case of marijuana - so many potential remedies. How did we ever let this prohibition go as far as it has gone?"

Jayop · 03-11-2015 07:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

A christopher hitches quote from 1996 when a poll in america suggested voters were in favour of decriminalisation;

"I'm very heartened to find that in spite of all the incessant, ridiculous, hateful, self-evidently contradictory propaganda about "the war on drugs" that when American voters are asked about it it shows this prpaganda has had no effect. It really cheers me up to think that. It restores ones faith in the thinking voter. I think decriminalization of drugs is long long overdue, it will be looked back on when it is done as: "What was all that about? How did we let Richard Nixon declare a "war on drugs" and ruin so much of our society, throw away so many of our liberties, incarcerate so many innocent people, deny ourselves - in the case of marijuana - so many potential remedies. How did we ever let this prohibition go as far as it has gone?"

It's literally nuts in America how many vested interested from big business there are to keep the phoney war on drugs in place. It's really all about money over liberty and life.

The police and ATF rely on the war for their funding.
The private and public prisons as well as the prison guard unions.
The arms manufacturers so they can sell their wares to countries like Cuba to fight a war caused by American policy that's ripping their continent apart.

suicide_circus · 03-11-2015 07:36PM

It is beyond the competence of the state to decide what an adult puts into their body...the state cannot realistically control this and should not waste time or money trying. You are an independent sentient being, it is not for a committee of "elders" to decide such matters for you.

RDM_83 again · 03-11-2015 08:38PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

It is beyond the competence of the state to decide what an adult puts into their body...the state cannot realistically control this and should not waste time or money trying. You are an independent sentient being, it is not for a committee of "elders" to decide such matters for you.

We live in a world where they want to put extra tax sugary drinks because people don't have the cop on to stop eating and get their asses of the couch and not drink two litres of coke a day. The prevailing attitude and not just for drugs

Illegal drugs doesn't just = Cannabis and MDMA

There is a lot of compounds where usage is dangerous and detrimental to life even if its not criminalised

mynameis905 · 03-11-2015 09:20PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Hopefully these shooting alleys can also become places where addicts can seek help for their terrible addiction. Remember using heroin should never become normalised or accepted in society.

Almost all of the negative effects of heroin addiction (overdoses, criminal/anti-social behaviour, health problems) are caused by the fact that it is criminalised.

Safe, long-term usage of opiates is entirely possible - there are millions of people across the world who take them daily for pain and the side effects are pretty benign.

Assuming you had a good supply of uncut, pure heroin you could safely take it for decades. It it was legalised and available to addicts on prescription then the deleterious effects on society would be minimal.

keane2097 · 03-11-2015 09:40PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

We live in a world where they want to put extra tax sugary drinks because people don't have the cop on to stop eating and get their asses of the couch and not drink two litres of coke a day. The prevailing attitude and not just for drugs

Illegal drugs doesn't just = Cannabis and MDMA

There is a lot of compounds where usage is dangerous and detrimental to life even if its not criminalised

You can obviously still tax drugs the same way you tax other things that lead to medical spending.

I know smoking and drinking are bad for me but it's a choice I'm happy to have to partake in them when I feel like it.

Tony EH · 03-11-2015 09:42PM

Labour really are trying to kill themselves...

Carlo Ancelotti · 03-11-2015 09:47PM

Legalisation makes sense from both a health and crime point of view
I have severe doubts this will amount to much though
Theres too much paranoia about drugs and politicians wont take any risks with losing votes

nxbyveromdwjpg · 03-11-2015 10:44PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

There is a lot of compounds where usage is dangerous and detrimental to life even if its not criminalised

If crack was suddenly legalised tomorrow do you really think there would be a flood of people lining up to ruin their lives?

The legality isn't the reason why most people won't want to become junkies, and as for the ones that do - the illegality won't stop them either.

This (if it happens) will open the door to better education and harm reduction, which is the way forward imo.

bodhrandude · 04-11-2015 05:08PM

About fecking time, fair play to O'Riordain.

MadsL · 04-11-2015 06:57PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I am a bit wary of the Portugal worship that always happens in these threads not because I am strongly ideologically opposed but because you are looking at a reduction in a country that apparently had barely any harm reduction/anti drugs programmes before this and a geographic position that was an issue.

Then perhaps you should examine the Czech Republic. All drugs in user amounts were legal 1989-1998, then the political climate changed and drugs were recriminalised. After a ten year period during which addiction and crime rates increased, the Czechs decriminalised again in 2009.

On latest Data CZ have a problem drug use rate of 6.28/1000. Compare this to the UK with a problem rate of 9.16/1000

I'd like to give you stats for Ireland but bizarrely the Health Research Board fails to give problem drug rates data to the EMCDDA. Browse the site to see for yourself. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu

Nodin · 04-11-2015 07:10PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

We live in a world where they want to put extra tax sugary drinks because people don't have the cop on to stop eating and get their asses of the couch and not drink two litres of coke a day. The prevailing attitude and not just for drugs

Illegal drugs doesn't just = Cannabis and MDMA

There is a lot of compounds where usage is dangerous and detrimental to life even if its not criminalised

Entirely true. However when you consider that illegal coke and heroin in this country generally contain only 20% coke or heroin (to the best of my knowledge), it can't be said that leaving it illegal is doing anyone any favours.

MadsL · 04-11-2015 07:55PM

MadsL wrote: »

I'd like to give you stats for Ireland but bizarrely the Health Research Board fails to give problem drug rates data to the EMCDDA. Browse the site to see for yourself. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu

Latest stats from HRB give a treatment problem drug rate of 5.5/1000 - that's treatment rates, as we know actual rates are much higher.

http://imgur.com/kiB62g0

Tragamin2k2 · 05-11-2015 04:14AM

meanwhile 20 million years ahead of the rest of the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onyKsyOwI7k

MadsL · 05-11-2015 07:43AM

Mexico's Supreme Court Declares Individuals Have the Right to Consume and Cultivate Marijuana

http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2015/11/mexicos-supreme-court-declares-individuals-have-right-consume-and-cultivate-marijuana

BlibBlab · 05-11-2015 09:50AM

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Prohibition has never worked and never will.

Don't think you can say that. Singapore has some of the harshest laws in the world when it comes to drugs and also some of the lowest rates of drug use.

suicide_circus wrote: »

It is beyond the competence of the state to decide what an adult puts into their body...the state cannot realistically control this and should not waste time or money trying. You are an independent sentient being, it is not for a committee of "elders" to decide such matters for you.

I don't know, humans have always needed leaders and laws, we live in a society.

I'm in favour of legalization and have tried my share of drugs, I don't like the blind anti-establishment focus of a lot of proponents though, particularly those who push cannabis at every opportunity. They're a bit like militant atheists, as bad as the people they rail against and doing more harm than good to the position they support and often unwilling to consider something contrary to their opinions.

ghostdancer · 05-11-2015 09:51AM

Carlo Ancelotti wrote: »

Legalisation makes sense from both a health and crime point of view
I have severe doubts this will amount to much though
Theres too much paranoia about drugs and politicians wont take any risks with losing votes

well if you're expecting legalisation, then you'll be disappointed, as he talked about decriminalisation, not legalisation.

"Ó Ríordáin’s hopes for drug decriminalisation"

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