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Luas for Galway

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13

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    #62
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    stehyl15 wrote: »
    Look a Luas for Galway may sound great and all but face its never going to happen and its no alternative to a bypass its like saying the luas is an alternative to the m50.
    it may never happen but yes it can be an alternative to a by-pass. done right it could encourage enough people to use it meaning people get out of their cars bringing down traffic. of course you won't get everyone out of their cars there will always be those who will never use public transport no matter what but getting a good number to use it will make a difference in terms of road capacity. the m50 is slightly different all though had it been planned properly public transport could have been a huge part bringing people into the city leaving the traffic wanting to by-pass the city to use the road.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #63
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    monument wrote: »
    No, I'm not from, nor live in Galway. But this personalization focus which distracts from the issues is exactly why we have rules about such. Common sense does not come into it when you don't seem to have a clue about the issues.

    Galway has unique issues which are not common to Cork.

    It's not a case of Luas in Galway or Cork. The options here is ~€600m on a commuter bypass or the same on Luas and upgrading key junctions.

    For some reason prioritising spending and public transport always gets messed up -- stuck in the this or that mindset while the people pushing for roads get things moving and ever closer to getting this done -- they get the studies done, get past planning and start looking for funding, while the public transport heads are still fighting over nothing, pitting each project against the next before it even gets to the drawing board.

    Wow! Slow down there. Just because you are a mod of another forum, it doesn't give you the right to churn out this;
    Common sense does not come into it when you don't seem to have a clue about the issues.

    Now unless you have badly articulated your point, that comes across as saying or at the very least suggesting, that I don't have a clue about the issues. I really hope I'm wrong. I know Galway inside out. Not from Galway, but a regular visitor/staycationer via bus, train and car since the late 70s up to the present day. I know the issues.
    But this personalization focus which distracts from the issues is exactly why we have rules about such.

    The entire political system in this country is based on the same thing, which is exactly why we waste millions and fail epically to plan anything properly, including roads. The localisation of projects, promoted on the basis of local interests is exactly where your OP sits whether you like it or not. I am quite right to assume you are from the area or at least on the same side of the country, because in the context of addressing commuting issues (road or rail) Galway is way down the list.
    Galway has unique issues which are not common to Cork.

    No it doesn't. Galway is no more unique than Dublin, Limerick, Waterford, Cork. etc. The issues are the same, only the proposed solutions may be unique.
    It's not a case of Luas in Galway or Cork. The options here is ~€600m on a commuter bypass or the same on Luas and upgrading key junctions.

    This argument wears me out. The "either/or" thing from transport afficionados is a red herring. I believe it is based on an insecurity complex, because roads receive the greater funding. But roads quite righly receive more funding, because they are more important and used by more of the population. The Galway bypass project is a necessity regardless of any LR proposals. The issue in Ireland is that our politicians have no appreciation for rail based transport or where it works and doesn't work.
    For some reason prioritising spending and public transport always gets messed up -- stuck in the this or that mindset while the people pushing for roads get things moving and ever closer to getting this done -- they get the studies done, get past planning and start looking for funding, while the public transport heads are still fighting over nothing, pitting each project against the next before it even gets to the drawing board.

    My point above addresses most of this. However I think you are putting too much emphasis on discussions here on boards over the years. Roads are a fact of life. Public transport projects and in particular rail based ones are a different kettle of fish. I appreciate the sense of despair you display in the above quote, but until there is a political sea change that understands rail transport and fully commits to implementing it where it is deemed sustainable to a realistic degree, rail will languish in the arms of enthusiasts and agenda ridden promoters with outrageous suggestions, further damaging any potential success. That is a fact that can be backed up, if you would like me to back it up. In an ideal world Galway could have LR and its bypass. But the world isn't ideal and the political and financial issues will always be wolves baying at the door.


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    #64
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    I'm a mod in this forum -- if you can't help but to personlise the debate, don't bother posting.

    Where people live is really none of your business and posting history is off-topic, deal with what is being said in the thread. This rule always applies even when debating with a mod.

    -- moderator


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    #65
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    stehyl15 wrote: »
    Look a Luas for Galway may sound great and all but face its never going to happen and its no alternative to a bypass its like saying the luas is an alternative to the m50.

    Expect your analogy fails for two reasons:

    1. The M50 at some point maybe was supposed to be a bypass rather than a commuter motorway -- the M50 has a large number of national primary routes feeding into it which go to cities. This could not be further from Galway's case if you tried.

    2. The M50 is starting to fail as a bypass because of the volume of local commuter traffic using it. Of pretext of a bypass in Galway with some kind of national importance was weak to start with and is fading more and more.

    Grandeeod wrote: »
    The localisation of projects, promoted on the basis of local interests is exactly where your OP sits whether you like it or not.

    If you can't back that up, it's baseless.
    Grandeeod wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Galway is no more unique than Dublin, Limerick, Waterford, Cork. etc. The issues are the same, only the proposed solutions may be unique.

    Sure, Galway is no more unique than those other cities. But just like those cities, Galway is unique.

    Galway is unique in its notably large percentage of east-west commutes, the ability to serve such a large section of the city with one line, the constrains, its ability not to continue down its path of making the same mistake and worse as Dublin's M50, and an attempt to build such a major bypass to nowhere.

    Grandeeod wrote: »
    The Galway bypass project is a necessity regardless of any LR proposals.

    It's really not clear at all that the planned bypass is a necessity -- it's being designed mainly for commuting -- some current road route upgrades and Luas you could serve more people than the bypass can.

    And, sure, roads are a fact of life but what is the right road in the right place or not is all subjective, not fact.


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    #66
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    monument wrote: »
    If you can't back that up, it's baseless.



    Sure, Galway is no more unique than those other cities. But just like those cities, Galway is unique.

    Galway is unique in its notably large percentage of east-west commutes, the ability to serve such a large section of the city with one line, the constrains, its ability not to continue down its path of making the same mistake and worse as Dublin's M50, and an attempt to build such a major bypass to nowhere.




    It's really not clear at all that the planned bypass is a necessity -- it's being designed mainly for commuting -- some current road route upgrades and Luas you could serve more people than the bypass can.

    And, sure, roads are a fact of life but what is the right road in the right place or not is all subjective, not fact.

    I'll jump out of this so called discussion for now. But before I do, I'll say the following. I did not personalise it by asking the question I did. I clearly explained why I asked and in the context of national interests rather than localized interests. You have ignored my attempts to have an honest and friendly debate about this by immediately going on the defensive regarding my question.

    Had your proposal been made by a local TD, would I be personalising it by stating that said TD is only concerned about Galway? No I wouldn't. I would be stating the obvious. As I said before, my thinking about rail based transport projects is based on priorities and the national interest in tandem with limited funds being made available. I do not believe that Galway is currently deserving of an LRT at this point in time. Its traffic congestion is micky mouse in comparison to other areas, but is a result of poor planning. (another point you don't seem to want to discuss)


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    #67
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    roads quite righly receive more funding, because they are more important and used by more of the population.

    A circular argument, imo. Also known as "predict and provide" transport planning.

    tdm100_01.jpg

    Grandeeod wrote: »
    The Galway bypass project is a necessity regardless of any LR proposals.

    What LR proposals are you referring to, in the context of a comparative analysis of various transport options?

    Grandeeod wrote: »
    The entire political system in this country is based on the same thing, which is exactly why we waste millions and fail epically to plan anything properly, including roads. The localisation of projects, promoted on the basis of local interests ...

    So in what way is Galway City different from the above at this point in time?

    Grandeeod wrote: »
    I do not believe that Galway is currently deserving of an LRT at this point in time. Its traffic congestion is micky mouse in comparison to other areas, but is a result of poor planning. (another point you don't seem to want to discuss)

    if Galway's traffic congestion is Mickey Mouse in comparison to other areas, then all transport options should be regarded in that light. The corollary is that if the problem is serious enough to merit a €500 million expressway for car commuters then LR, or at least a PT-based solution, should get serious consideration too.


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    #68
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    A circular argument, imo. Also known as "predict and provide" transport planning.

    tdm100_01.jpg




    What LR proposals are you referring to, in the context of a comparative analysis of various transport options?




    So in what way is Galway City different from the above at this point in time?




    if Galway's traffic congestion is Mickey Mouse in comparison to other areas, then all transport options should be regarded in that light. The corollary is that if the problem is serious enough to merit a €500 million expressway for car commuters then LR, or at least a PT-based solution, should get serious consideration too.


    I'd love to comment in detail, but the mod sickened me to such a degree, including a remark that I "don't bother posting", that I have decided to jump ship. Please respect (and others too) that it's very impolite to quote me, when I have decided to leave the discussion for the reasons stated, as I do not wish to engage due to the attitude of the OP who is also a mod.


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    #69
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    There's nothing impolite to quoting somebody who has made a point which you disagree with. If you want out, you don't get the last word. Telling other posters what they can or cannot post, even in a roundabout way, is clearly off-topic and most likely going to be seen as backseat modding too. Discussing moderation again will get you infracted or a short ban.

    Vague digs at other posters will also likely get you infracted too, any posters, not just mods.

    Stop personalising your focus (you already claimed not to be personalising things, but that's most people do, and then after denying personalising things you started to try to defend such).

    -- moderator


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    #70
    The Reign
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭The Reign


    Hello ,

    In regard of the Trams in Galway and if it ever becomes a possibility , most people I have spoken to over the past couple of months have all signalled that the SUIG system looks the and is best explained I had taken a look myself and it does seem very comprehensive and applied by a guy from Galway actually who is qualified in PLanning according to the papers

    ...... The guy put up a youtube video and loads of ebooks , this guy definitely has my vote ...

    My mother is from Germany and the presentation looks very much like it does there , those systems are usually very good with layout .

    Here the links my friend received from his mailshot sometime ago ...

    Go to youtube and type

    "Solas Uirbeach Iarnrod na Gaillimhe " then click the link option 2 , I see there is also one for Limerick and Shannon aswell... interesting



    ____________________________________________________________________________


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://youtu.be/2lpzca5Cx58

    That's the link to what he's talking about


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    #72
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Not another tram system that doesnt connect with itself.

    Also why is that map half in English and half in irish. I've never heard anyone ever refer to the docks as Na Duggana.


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    #73
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    What a load of absolute horse ****e. Galway is too small for a luas type system. It needs a ring road like Limerick, Cork and Dublin end of story.


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    #74
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    What a load of absolute horse ****e. Galway is too small for a luas type system. It needs a ring road like Limerick, Cork and Dublin end of story.
    no, not end of story at all. put along the right corridor a smaller luas type system absolutely could work in galway. we have bigger things to do first but no reason why in the future it shouldn't be done.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #75
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    end of the road wrote: »
    no, not end of story at all. put along the right corridor a smaller luas type system absolutely could work in galway. we have bigger things to do first but no reason why in the future it shouldn't be done.

    After a proper bypass is built maybe


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    #76
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    After a proper bypass is built maybe
    no . a bypass is a separate issue and has nothing to do with this

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #77
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,969 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Tbh the thread title needs to change from Luas for Galway to Tram for Galway. There are cities in Europe which were comparable sizes to what Galway are now, which had tram systems 100 years ago. Its not a new technology.

    IMO Luas was overpriced when it was bought, and as a result providing another Luas to another irish city feels like too high a price to pay. A tram system which does the job could be sourced cheaper than Luas was.


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    #78
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    With respect to Luas costs, an engineer colleague of mine wondered why were they pouring enough concrete down Harcourt Street to run the Dublin-Cork express, let alone a tram?

    That, as they say, is a very good question.


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    #79
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    The extra concrete on Harcourt st was to fill the coal bunkers under the roadway, which the rpa lads only learned about, when one collapsed in front of a bus.

    I wonder what advantage a tram would have over a high frequency bus service with dedicated bus routes? Considering the cost is way more, and the complete lack of flexibility to change a route.


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    #80
    deathtocaptcha
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭deathtocaptcha


    ridiculous idea... there quite simply isn't enough demand to make a tram system profitable in the long run...

    Galway is a small, isolated, rural city that you can walk around in half an hour...

    it needs a bypass without doubt but there are bigger, more important public transport projects that need to be executed... i.e. Cork to Limerick motorway...


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    #81
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    ridiculous idea... there quite simply isn't enough demand to make a tram system profitable in the long run...

    Galway is a small, isolated, rural city that you can walk around in half an hour...

    it needs a bypass without doubt but there are bigger, more important public transport projects that need to be executed... i.e. Cork to Limerick motorway...

    That's a new one on me - a motorway as a public transport project? Plainly it isn't.

    What it would be though would be an outdoor relief programme for landowners along the route and for aggregate suppliers. Socialism for the wealthy in other words.


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    #82
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    ridiculous idea... there quite simply isn't enough demand to make a tram system profitable in the long run...

    That's a strange statement as part of a post which looks for a ridiculous bypass to nowhere. You want an bypass to nowhere funded but not a tram system which would serve more people!?!

    But equally strange things were said years ago in Dublin re Dart first and then Dublin.
    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    Galway is a small, isolated, rural city

    What's isolated about Galway? For a city of its size it is reasonably connected to Dublin, Knock and Shannon airports; It has motorways to Dublin and Limerick; it is well connected to Dublin by public transport (a mix of rail and public and private coaches).

    Also: I'm not sure what a "rural city" is but it sounds like something that needs fixing, no made worse by a "bypass" which will compound the city's and region's transport, economic and social issues.
    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    that you can walk around in half an hour...

    Most people won't walk those kind of distances and I've walked a lot more than a half hour in Galway.

    You can walk the most popular and profitable sections of Dublin's Luas routes in and, in many cases, well under a half hour. Many we should not have built Luas -- let the people eat cake and walk!

    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    it needs a bypass without doubt but there are bigger, more important public transport projects that need to be executed... i.e. Cork to Limerick motorway...

    Three points:

    1. A motorway is not a public transport project.

    2. Nowhere in this thread have I said that this is the top priority for the country.

    3. The priority projects don't always get funded first (i.e. a motorway to Tuam before the Cork to Limeick one etc).


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    #83
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    Galway is a small, isolated, rural city that you can walk around in half an hour...

    Hmm I walk to work some mornings from Rahoon - via the Quincentenial bridge - to Ballybane. The shortest distance I can do it in is 7km ish which still takes me about 70mins between waiting at crossings etc.

    To walk around the city would take a multiple of that time.


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    #84
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    deathtocaptcha wrote: »
    ridiculous idea... there quite simply isn't enough demand to make a tram system profitable in the long run...

    Galway is a small, isolated, rural city that you can walk around in half an hour...

    it needs a bypass without doubt but there are bigger, more important public transport projects that need to be executed... i.e. Cork to Limerick motorway...

    Many Galway sized cities have had and continue to operate tram systems for a hundred years. The bypass, at a whopping half a billion is a waste for a town of 75k. Half that money would provided effective BRT and cycle routes to permanently end Galways traffic woes.

    Cork and Limerick are well connected by rail.


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    #85
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    What was wrong with old Luas that you had down there? :D

    20100812_galway_and_salthill_trams-b.jpg

    ****



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    #86
    MrJones2013
    Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭MrJones2013


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    What a load of absolute horse ****e. Galway is too small for a luas type system. It needs a ring road like Limerick, Cork and Dublin end of story.

    Ring roads aren't the be all and end all, personally I think we should be planning for the future and reducing the number of cars on the roads.

    Would it be worthwhile implementing a single line BRT/LRT system on the busiest/most populated route in the remaining major cities, ie Cork, Limerick and Galway and see the impact this has on commuting in these cities and based on the impact in the future have multiple lines (which interconnect, within reason, not like the disasterous existing LUAS lines)?

    Public transport here is light years behind and if we don't start planning for the future eventually it'll just end up being next to impossible to introduce.


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    #87
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Other cities the size of Galway don't have the low population density of Galway. Suburban rail needs a high population density to work and be viable, Galway is spread out but it's certainly not densely populated for a city. Considering that we can't even do BRT in Dublin (2 projects previously announced quietly shelved only last week) let alone anything more exotic, what makes anyone think that a Luas for Galway is going to happen any time soon? Also, anyone who thinks that the current problems with Galway's congestion can be solved without a bypass is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.


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    #88
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    captainspeed wrote: »
    Other cities the size of Galway don't have the low population density of Galway. Suburban rail needs a high population density to work and be viable, Galway is spread out but it's certainly not densely populated for a city. Considering that we can't even do BRT in Dublin (2 projects previously announced quietly shelved only last week) let alone anything more exotic, what makes anyone think that a Luas for Galway is going to happen any time soon?

    Is a bypass for Galway going to happen anytime soon?

    What's a better option: (a) build a commuter freeway dressed up as a bypass and keep fueling Ireland's most unsustainable city planning practices in terms of housing and transport, or (b) take a different direction and invest in sustainable transport and plan more density and a more livable city?

    captainspeed wrote: »
    Also, anyone who thinks that the current problems with Galway's congestion can be solved without a bypass is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

    The vast bulk of traffic is local commuter traffic, not bypass traffic so thinking a bypass will make things better is not only "living in cloud cuckoo land" but dismissing all evidence that commuter freeways make things worse not better and that Galway just does not have the space to add more and more bypasses or extra lanes to the same. And long tunnels are out of the question.


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    #89
    MrJones2013
    Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭MrJones2013


    captainspeed wrote: »
    Other cities the size of Galway don't have the low population density of Galway. Suburban rail needs a high population density to work and be viable, Galway is spread out but it's certainly not densely populated for a city. Considering that we can't even do BRT in Dublin (2 projects previously announced quietly shelved only last week) let alone anything more exotic, what makes anyone think that a Luas for Galway is going to happen any time soon? Also, anyone who thinks that the current problems with Galway's congestion can be solved without a bypass is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Bypasses/Motorways only encourage more cars on the roads, we should be planning for the future and trying to reduce the number of cars in urban areas while increasing the use of public transport. People will only use public transport if it is reliable, fast and accessible.

    The gif on the following link, (washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/08/10/what-cities-would-look-like-without-cars/), is very interesting. We need to plan for the future otherwise the next generation will have to try deal with a problem they have inherited from us.


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    #90
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    captainspeed wrote: »
    Other cities the size of Galway don't have the low population density of Galway. Suburban rail needs a high population density to work and be viable, Galway is spread out but it's certainly not densely populated for a city. Considering that we can't even do BRT in Dublin (2 projects previously announced quietly shelved only last week) let alone anything more exotic, what makes anyone think that a Luas for Galway is going to happen any time soon? Also, anyone who thinks that the current problems with Galway's congestion can be solved without a bypass is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Galway is plenty dense and for a good QBC/BRT system. Fixed rail might be an issue at present due to bad planning practices.

    Galway is certainly not big enough for €0.75bn bypass, especially given that the other side of the bypass is a national park and one of the most sparsely populated areas of the country. If Galway were located inland and on a route between two cities, then perhaps.


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    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Galway is certainly not big enough for €0.75bn bypass.

    Sigh, if you are going to use a figure as a basis for your argument, please *try* to quote the correct one or risk looking ridiculous by inflating the actual figure by 50%


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