Admitting that you have no ambition?

Wanderer2010 · 26-10-2015 10:45AM #1

I'm in my job just over 8 years now and over the years I have seen opportunities for senior roles and promotion come up and frankly the wrong people have secured them and by that I mean company pole climbers who would cut your throat for an extra euro or else yes men/women who suck up to the boss.

I went for a senior role in my third year here but missed out to some irritating little licka@@ who was incompetent so I now only do the bare minimum in work and will never go for anything senior. I told my boss last year when he suggested a senior role that I'm not interested as the wrong people always get the job and now I feel that recently I have been set up for failure by being assigned harder jobs with tighter deadlines.
I'm very close to filing a complaint with HR that I'm getting picked on and I feel it's because I admitted I have no ambition but why is that a problem, not every single workplace can be filled with eager go getters wanting to move up?? Thoughts?

seamus · 26-10-2015 11:10AM

You've asked a similar question here before. The problem is not motivation, but attitude.

Since you were passed over for promotion, you've decided the company is a sh1thole where people only get promoted by kissing ass. You've self-admittedly since followed this up with a lacklustre work performance and eagerness to tell management that they're incompetent and are promoting the wrong people.

In effect, you've decided that there's no point in trying to get promoted and set about sabotaging it for yourself with a sh1tty attitude.

You're not lacking ambition, you just hate where you work. Unfortunately staying in such an environment makes it hard to discern demotivation from a lack of ambition, it becomes a downward spiral.

Get a new job. It doesn't have to be better paid, it could be the same job in a different company. It will expand your horizons and give you a new energy. It may not be the job you want to do, but it will give you a bit of a kick to figure out what you do want to do.

Mrs OBumble · 26-10-2015 11:56AM

If you're there for over 8 years, you should be one of the experienced team members, well able for the more difficult jobs. That's likely why they're being given to you.

If you don't want to better yourself, well that's your call. (And most people do reach an age where they decide that they've climbed as high as they want to).

But don't expect to kick back and to a lazy job at the level where you're at, that's not how things work.

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 12:22PM

I know what you are saying OP.
About 5 years ago I left a job that I had been in for the previous 10 years.
I was good at the job and was asked several times to apply for slightly higher paying management jobs, but which would need be to be someone im not and to also work almost twice the number of hours.

I just said "nope, im not interested. Im out of here at 5pm every day and not work weekends, so that I can do what I like to do instead of what my boss like me to do after work."

Queue lots of sniping and accusations of "are you leaving early? You have no ambition. Why are you here if you dont like it? "

Well I wasnt leaving early. I did have an ambition, which was to enjoy my time off, even more that work, and then to be able to retire at 45. And I did like my job, i just liked not being at work and doing other things far more, like going off to Florence or Barcelona for the weekend or hiking in the mountains with family and friends, or my own little side projects that I enjoy.

Come my 45th birthday and I walked into the office and handed in my notice. Should have seen the look on my bosses face and the rest of the people there when I said I was retiring. "But how can you retire at your age they said". "How will you get enough income to retire?". "Planning it for many a year, while you guys were planning your next move up the corporate ladder and spending 18 hours a day in the office and coming in at the weekends just to show the person above you that you were ambitious, even though you added nothing during most of those weekends", I said.

Some of my best friends are still there and now they see what I was doing was the right thing for me. In fact they are all very jealous if truth be told. And I guarantee none of them will be able to retire comfortably even if they wanted to til they are farmed off.

I havent looked back since. Now I do what I want, when I want, and get to spend all my time with my loved ones or going on holidays, or doing my own pet projects that i enjoy. Best decision ever. And those who accused me of having no ambition are still stuck in their daily slog, but at least they have ambition. The wrong type of ambition, I would wager.

26-10-2015 12:27PM

Dead right mate! You work to live not live to work!

commonsense. · 26-10-2015 12:48PM

Jaketherake wrote:

I know what you are saying OP. About 5 years ago I left a job that I had been in for the previous 10 years. I was good at the job and was asked several times to apply for slightly higher paying management jobs, but which would need be to be someone im not and to also work almost twice the number of hours.

Jaketherake wrote:

Come my 45th birthday and I walked into the office and handed in my notice. Should have seen the look on my bosses face and the rest of the people there when I said I was retiring. "But how can you retire at your age they said". "How will you get enough income to retire?". "Planning it for many a year, while you guys were planning your next move up the corporate ladder and spending 18 hours a day in the office and coming in at the weekends just to show the person above you that you were ambitious, even though you added nothing during most of those weekends", I said.

So you work in a job doing minimum hours, don't take any promotions and are able to retire at 45 with enough money to support yourself for the next 40 years or more. Must have been some job or you won the lotto.
Care to tell us which?

Mongfinder General · 26-10-2015 12:59PM

OP, you've copped on to what most of us don't. If you work hard you will get the rewards you deserve. Total and utter bollox. It's about playing the game. And you don't want to play their game.

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 01:00PM

commonsense. wrote: »

So you work in a job doing minimum hours, don't take any promotions and are able to retire at 45 with enough money to support yourself for the next 40 years or more. Must have been some job or you won the lotto.
Care to tell us which?

Well I didnt win the lotto. And no I didnt inherit either if thats your next question.
I made enough money and saved enough of it to be able to invest enough to support myself for the next however long. I didnt save all the money for the next 40 years already. Thats not how retirement works.

You are able to retire if the income from your investments exceeds your expenditure needs. Thats where I wanted to be and thats where I made sure I went. Basically I earn from investments the same as I earned from salaried work now. Well more actually, but the same or a bit less would still be enough.

Dont see what the big surprise is.

Work 18 hours a day and weekends to earn x amount plus a small bonus for those extra hours of you are lucky.
or
Work the required 7.5 hours a day Monday to Friday to earn the same amount, dont get the small bonus but do your own thing during those hours extra hours that you used to give to your company for free.

Easy choice for me.

People need to do some sums and actually figure out how much they are making for the extra hours they give their companies. Then compare that to your own hourly value on your own time.

Wanderer78 · 26-10-2015 01:12PM

abandoned the whole rat race years ago. havent looked back since. more to life. if your not happy in work op, move on. looking back, its very sad to see how badly people are treated in the whole race. ive seen people far more senior than you being treated appallingly. ive seen people become very ill due to stress induced in them mainly from their working environment. the whole rat race encourages and promotes the ill treatment of people. its a truly disgusting system. it causes an incredible amount of mental health problems, in fact i resent the whole system for this alone. people are the most important asset a business can ever have as without them a business would only be ideas on pieces of paper. people make things happen and should be prioritised but sadly this isnt always the case. many businesses has become mainly about the bottom line and peoples needs are way down the list and sometimes not even on the list. do we really think this system is sustainable? id be looking into what kind of work or environment you d like to spend your days in, be realistic of course, and start making shapes towards that. you will become very unhappy if you dont and this will start affecting all aspects of your life including your relationships. there really is more to life. best of luck with things

seachto7 · 26-10-2015 01:21PM

I never could understand people putting in 10/12 hour days.
They'll still turn around and let you go if it comes to it.
Then again if I was running a business, I can see the advantages as it would be to my benefit, and not making someone else rich!
Maybe if I was in a well paid job...

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 01:41PM

Heres how one of the conversations went with my boss when he told me I was not doing enough overtime.
We were long time friends, so I could speak to him in this manner no problem. Even if we werent I would have had no problem with it.

Boss : "You dont seem to do as much overtime as the other guys."
Me : I still do a few days a week when I dont get lunch or im in early
Boss : But the other guys are doing 18 hour days and they get annoyed when they see you doing 7,5 or 8 hour days.
Me : I get annoyed for them when I see them doing 18 hour days.
Boss : This cant go on.
Me : Im always happy to work as many hours as you want me to above my normal paid hours.
Boss : Good. Glad we got that sorted.
Me : So the rate for OT is 1.5 times normal hourly rate.
Boss : We dont pay OT here.
Me : Oh. So you want me to give up my time for free.
Boss : Its for the good of the company.
Me : But its not for the good of me. I will work all you want. Ill work a hundred hours a week if you want. But you have to pay me properly for my time. If I dont make you pay then you will take it forever, why wouldnt you if its free for you.
Boss : Your contract says you have to do OT.
Me : Contract says "x hours per week and you may be required to work extra hours from time to time". I do work extra hours from time to time already.
Boss : Its not fair on the other guys.
Me : No its not. They are being abused and afraid to stand up for themselves.

and on it went for a while.
He told me a few years afterwards that his boss had told him to make sure that he got at least 48 hours a week out of everyone and more if possible. To create a situation where people felt they needed to be seen to be "company men". He was doing at least 70 hours a week himself.

When you get over that need to be seen to please your boss whatever they say, the stress at work just goes away.

sozbox · 26-10-2015 01:44PM

Jaketherake wrote: »

Well I didnt win the lotto. And no I didnt inherit either if thats your next question.
I made enough money and saved enough of it to be able to invest enough to support myself for the next however long. I didnt save all the money for the next 40 years already. Thats not how retirement works.

You are able to retire if the income from your investments exceeds your expenditure needs. Thats where I wanted to be and thats where I made sure I went. Basically I earn from investments the same as I earned from salaried work now. Well more actually, but the same or a bit less would still be enough.

Dont see what the big surprise is.

Work 18 hours a day and weekends to earn x amount plus a small bonus for those extra hours of you are lucky.
or
Work the required 7.5 hours a day Monday to Friday to earn the same amount, dont get the small bonus but do your own thing during those hours extra hours that you used to give to your company for free.

Easy choice for me.

People need to do some sums and actually figure out how much they are making for the extra hours they give their companies. Then compare that to your own hourly value on your own time.

I've a similar goal, to retire by 50 using investment income, I've over 20 years left to get there. Can I ask what kind of investments you bought? stocks?

Mister Vain · 26-10-2015 01:46PM

There's a difference between being ambitious and working every hour God gives you in a job you don't like.

Wanderer78 · 26-10-2015 01:47PM

sozbox wrote: »

I've a similar goal, to retire by 50 using investment income, I've over 20 years left to get there. Can I ask what kind of investments you bought? stocks?

be very very careful with investments. if you were born in the wrong year, that could go horribly wrong for you. i hear gold is a good investment but i have no investments myself.

commonsense. · 26-10-2015 01:52PM

Jaketherake wrote:

You are able to retire if the income from your investments exceeds your expenditure needs. Thats where I wanted to be and thats where I made sure I went. Basically I earn from investments the same as I earned from salaried work now. Well more actually, but the same or a bit less would still be enough.

So let's say you lead a very modest lifestyle on â‚¬50,000 a year. You are able to generate this â‚¬50k from your investments and GUARANTEE this level of income for the next 40+ years.
You only need a very very basic understanding of risk and return to know that a massive initial sum would be required to be able to do this.
And you claim to have saved that massive sum by age 45???

sozbox · 26-10-2015 01:52PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

be very very careful with investments. if you were born in the wrong year, that could go horribly wrong for you. i hear gold is a good investment but i have no investments myself.

True enough, if I was 5 years older I'd probably have 5 houses in negative equity

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 02:01PM

sozbox wrote: »

I've a similar goal, to retire by 50 using investment income, I've over 20 years left to get there. Can I ask what kind of investments you bought? stocks?

Now this mightnt work for you, so think about what you do and tailor it for yourself.

In order of importance this is what I deemed I needed to do.

1 - Max your pension contributions. This will kick in when you are old enough, even if you retired earlier than you can touch it. So say you retired at 40 and couldnt touch your pension til 55, you have that extra income when you hit 55. Also its tax efficient and gets you used to living on less money per paycheck than if you spent the pension money month to month. And your company might match some of your contribution too.

2 - I bought equities every month. I sold some of these to buy property too when I had enough. That could have backfired at one point, but it bounced back. Pay all your debts down as quickly as possible. The only mortgages I have left are the trackers. Everything else I paid off, even if I could have got a little tax back on the interest. When things go wrong better to own outright than owe. Own your own house and have it paid off BEFORE you retire (some believe renting is better - i dont). I made that and my 45th birthday my trigger for retiring.

3 - Enjoy yourself. No point putting everything away if you have to do without. Then life before and after retirement would be very miserable. Defeats the purpose.

At a point, your normal salary will start to be matched by the money earned every month by your investments. This is effectivly doubling your income, but dont be tempted to spend your retirement fund. Let it grow and dont get used to that income as spendable income. Because it needs to replace your salary when you do retire. And its not easy to half your spending at that point.

Tweak your plans as you go.

Oh, nearly forgot. I ignored the prospect of contributory state pension as it could be gone by the time im 68, so best to plan for not having it.

sozbox · 26-10-2015 02:04PM

Jaketherake wrote: »

Now this mightnt work for you, so think about what you do and tailor it for yourself.

In order of importance this is what I deemed I needed to do.

1 - Max your pension contributions. This will kick in when you are old enough, even if you retired earlier than you can touch it. So say you retired at 40 and couldnt touch your pension til 55, you have that extra income when you hit 55. Also its tax efficient and gets you used to living on less money per paycheck than if you spent the pension money month to month. And your company might match some of your contribution too.

2 - I bought equities every month. I sold some of these to buy property too when I had enough. That could have backfired at one point, but it bounced back. Pay all your debts down as quickly as possible. The only mortgages I have left are the trackers. Everything else I paid off, even if I could have got a little tax back on the interest. When things go wrong better to own outright than owe. Own your own house and have it paid off BEFORE you retire (some believe renting is better - i dont). I made that and my 45th birthday my trigger for retiring.

3 - Enjoy yourself. No point putting everything away if you have to do without. Then life before and after retirement would be very miserable. Defeats the purpose.

At a point, your normal salary will start to be matched by the money earned every month by your investments. This is effectivly doubling your income, but dont be tempted to spend your retirement fund. Let it grow and dont get used to that income as spendable income. Because it needs to replace your salary when you do retire. And its not easy to half your spending at that point.

Tweak your plans as you go.

Cheers for that. Assuming your income now is from rental properties and stocks that pay dividends?

Wanderer2010 · 26-10-2015 02:04PM

Jaketherake wrote: »

Heres how one of the conversations went with my boss when he told me I was not doing enough overtime.
We were long time friends, so I could speak to him in this manner no problem. Even if we werent I would have had no problem with it.

Boss : "You dont seem to do as much overtime as the other guys."
Me : I still do a few days a week when I dont get lunch or im in early
Boss : But the other guys are doing 18 hour days and they get annoyed when they see you doing 7,5 or 8 hour days.
Me : I get annoyed for them when I see them doing 18 hour days.
Boss : This cant go on.
Me : Im always happy to work as many hours as you want me to above my normal paid hours.
Boss : Good. Glad we got that sorted.
Me : So the rate for OT is 1.5 times normal hourly rate.
Boss : We dont pay OT here.
Me : Oh. So you want me to give up my time for free.
Boss : Its for the good of the company.
Me : But its not for the good of me. I will work all you want. Ill work a hundred hours a week if you want. But you have to pay me properly for my time. If I dont make you pay then you will take it forever, why wouldnt you if its free for you.
Boss : Your contract says you have to do OT.
Me : Contract says "x hours per week and you may be required to work extra hours from time to time". I do work extra hours from time to time already.
Boss : Its not fair on the other guys.
Me : No its not. They are being abused and afraid to stand up for themselves.

and on it went for a while.
He told me a few years afterwards that his boss had told him to make sure that he got at least 48 hours a week out of everyone and more if possible. To create a situation where people felt they needed to be seen to be "company men". He was doing at least 70 hours a week himself.

When you get over that need to be seen to please your boss whatever they say, the stress at work just goes away.

18 hours a day??? No way in hell I would ever ever work that much even if I got paid for it. I would love someone to come on here and say that working long hours was worth it and it gave them satisfaction and happiness because I have yet to see that person! There's a small thing called a life which means I only work my required hours and no more and my mental health is all the better for it. Working long hours really is only for ladder climbers.

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 02:08PM

commonsense. wrote: »

So let's say you lead a very modest lifestyle on â‚¬50,000 a year. You are able to generate this â‚¬50k from your investments and GUARANTEE this level of income for the next 40+ years.
You only need a very very basic understanding of risk and return to know that a massive initial sum would be required to be able to do this.
And you claim to have saved that massive sum by age 45???

Yes. Its quite easy actually, whatever amount a person decides they need to have a nice retirement. Looks like its 50k for you.
Some would want more, some less.
Once you have no mortgage / rent your costs go down considerably too. Thats a big one.

And as I explained I have investments that will provide me with money. I dont have the money sitting in the bank waiting for me to take it out over the next x amount of years.

And nothing can ever be guaranteed, even a job.

How much do you think you would need to have your 50k a year for 40 years. Obviously you have an idea of what you need to have at the start of those 40 years for yourself. Tell us what you think it is that you would need and what allocations etc and we can work from there with you.

Vision of Disorder · 26-10-2015 02:08PM

commonsense. wrote: »

So let's say you lead a very modest lifestyle on â‚¬50,000 a year.

You don't need 50k a year to live modestly.

26-10-2015 02:10PM

Its funny. In my experience, the people not interested in promotion think of others as "ladder climbers" or "lick asses".

The people who do chase promotion think of others as unhappy losers.

Two very entrenched attitudes

Wanderer78 · 26-10-2015 02:11PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

18 hours a day??? No way in hell I would ever ever work that much even if I got paid for it. I would love someone to come on here and say that working long hours was worth it and it gave them satisfaction and happiness because I have yet to see that person! There's a small thing called a life which means I only work my required hours and no more and my mental health is all the better for it. Working long hours really is only for ladder climbers.

i know people that have put in the time and are now reaping the rewards but to be honest i probably know more that havent. there really is more to life

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

You don't need 50k a year to live modestly.

depends what your situation is! i read a post on here not too long ago of a family struggling on 75k a year

sozbox · 26-10-2015 02:12PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i know people that have put in the time and are now reaping the rewards but to be honest i probably know more that havent. there really is more to life

depends what your situation is! i read a post on here not too long ago of a family struggling on 75k a year

Take rent/mortgage and possible tax off your monthly expenses and it's a different world.

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 02:16PM

sozbox wrote: »

Cheers for that. Assuming your income now is from rental properties and stocks that pay dividends?

Exactly. Pension is my safety fund if it all goes wrong. Stocks are important as you can liquidate easily if you need to as you go along. My original goal was to take 4% a year, but i havent had to do that so far. Rental properties turned out to be relatively easy money in the end, but that might change with government interference, but thats another story. Also the property thing nearly blew up in my face at one stage, but settled down.

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 02:17PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

18 hours a day??? No way in hell I would ever ever work that much even if I got paid for it. I would love someone to come on here and say that working long hours was worth it and it gave them satisfaction and happiness because I have yet to see that person! There's a small thing called a life which means I only work my required hours and no more and my mental health is all the better for it. Working long hours really is only for ladder climbers.

Working long hours also takes away from your familys quality of life too. Thats a major one.

sozbox · 26-10-2015 02:20PM

Jaketherake wrote: »

Exactly. Pension is my safety fund if it all goes wrong. Stocks are important as you can liquidate easily if you need to as you go along. My original goal was to take 4% a year, but i havent had to do that so far. Rental properties turned out to be relatively easy money in the end, but that might change with government interference, but thats another story. Also the property thing nearly blew up in my face at one stage, but settled down.

Well done on what you've achieved. Not easy. How much ere you putting into stocks per month at the beginning?

Jaketherake · 26-10-2015 02:32PM

sozbox wrote: »

Well done on what you've achieved. Not easy. How much ere you putting into stocks per month at the beginning?

Curiosly it turned out easier than I expected.
I started buying stocks in my 20s.
At that time I put in I think it was 10% into pension fund. There were also matching contributions from employer. 15% into equities and 20% into rent. I quickly decided to put the rent into a mortgage instead, which turned out to be less than rent and then after bought some more property as I went along.

By the time I was retired it was 25% from myself into pension and 25% into equities. They equities were actually making me money then and the pension was growing fast too. Pension funds are still growing but slower as i reduced the risk, but i dotn contribute now to it.

So the day I retired my costs are 25% less for pension contributions i dont make anymore (you have to adjust that for tax too) and 25% that im not putting into equities anymore. So basically before that I was living very comfortably on 50% less than I was earning at the time.

When I retired my investments were growing on average by more than my salary paid me every month, which was a good sign to retire.

sozbox · 26-10-2015 02:39PM

Jaketherake wrote: »

Curiosly it turned out easier than I expected.
I started buying stocks in my 20s.
At that time I put in I think it was 10% into pension fund. There were also matching contributions from employer. 15% into equities and 20% into rent. I quickly decided to put the rent into a mortgage instead, which turned out to be less than rent and then after bought some more property as I went along.

By the time I was retired it was 25% from myself into pension and 25% into equities. They equities were actually making me money then and the pension was growing fast too. Pension funds are still growing but slower as i reduced the risk, but i dotn contribute now to it.

So the day I retired my costs are 25% less for pension contributions i dont make anymore (you have to adjust that for tax too) and 25% that im not putting into equities anymore. So basically before that I was living very comfortably on 50% less than I was earning at the time.

When I retired my investments were growing on average by more than my salary paid me every month, which was a good sign to retire.

Thanks for the detail. One last question, I've started buying stocks and have the house deposit almost ready but something that eats into my money is the transaction and account fees that come with the online brokers. What did you use?

Carlo Ancelotti · 26-10-2015 04:41PM

Always wary of companies where the required work cannot be done during normal hours. Ocassional OT is not an issue, but it should be compensated properly. Have seen people put under pressure many times to do extra hours fir the good of the company
The problem is it can become 'expected' of you and you end up with no reward.

davo10 · 26-10-2015 04:42PM

Should someone who works the minimum required be considered for promotion? And if they are not promoted, should they be entitled to criticise the people who do put in the extra effort and get rewarded? I have no problem with those that are happy with their lot and do not begrudge others when they advance, but employers look for the three A's, aptitude, attitude and ambition, if you do the bare minimum and accept the status quo, don't denigrate others who reap the rewards of a better work ethic.

Admitting that you have no ambition?

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