What's more Irish - accent or birthplace?

Teafor two12345 · 26-10-2015 01:43PM

One could say citizenship trumps all.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 01:43PM

If you are native born white Irish person whose family have been living here from at least the Norman conquest you are Irish.
Anyone else is not really Irish. They haven't been here long enough. Legally you are Irish but you aren't really Irish.
The major root of my name derives from Rian, the mid-10th century King of the territory Ui Cinsealaigh in South Leinster and I have traced my family records all the way back to the 18th century which is a far as you can go with Irish records.
I'm Irish and proud.
There are plenty of people with Hiberno-Norman names and I would consider them just about Irish.
People with obviously English names who come from planter stock are Anglo-Irish but not really Irish.
Protestants who don't identify with Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic culture and tradition aren't really Irish in my view i.e. Daniel Day Lewis for example who is the from a Anglo-Irish Protestant family that arrived after Cromwell.
Lord Mount Charles and other Anglo-Irish Protestants are just British aristocrats and not Irish at all.
Scots-Irish in Northern Ireland see themselves as British.
Eastern Europeans and Africans and Chinese and South Americans and others have settled here and have kids with Irish citizenship and Irish accents but they aren't Irish really and it will be a few centuries before their differences disappear.

jester77 · 26-10-2015 01:45PM

Most Irish is about how many beers you can handle.

Teafor two12345 · 26-10-2015 01:45PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you are native born white Irish person whose family have been living here from at least the NORMAN CONQUEST you are Irish.
Anyone else is not really Irish. They haven't been here long enough.

Oh....I don't think I'm Irish!?????????

LordSutch · 26-10-2015 01:50PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you are native born white Irish person whose family have been living here from at least the Norman conquest you are Irish.
Anyone else is not really Irish. They haven't been here long enough.

Wow, that throws up many deep questions on many fronts, from Northern Ireland, to families from the continent who settled here in the ROI during WWII (Geldofs inc), to the Shane MacGowans of this world, to all sorts of deep questions

My own family (on both sides) would have landed here during the 1600s.

Complicated it is.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 01:58PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Wow, that throws up many deep questions on many fronts, from Northern Ireland, to families from the continent who settled here in the ROI during WWII (Geldofs inc), to the Shane MacGowans of this world, to all sorts of deep questions

My own family (on both sides) would have landed here during the 1600s.

Complicated it is.

The real Irish are the Irish with Gaelic names and Gaelic roots that go back to before Norman rule. Simple as that. The rest are just blow ins. Irish legally today but blow ins all the same. They can blow out if they like!

Teafor two12345 · 26-10-2015 01:58PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The real Irish are the Irish with Gaelic names and Gaelic roots that go back to before Norman rule. Simple as that. The rest are just blow ins. Irish legally today but blow ins all the same.

Being Irish ain't all that.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 02:00PM

Teafor two12345 wrote: »

Being Irish ain't all that.

Well it is! So there!

Sir Osis of Liver. · 26-10-2015 02:03PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

People with obviously English names who come from planter stock are Anglo-Irish but not really Irish.

Today I learned that I'm not really Irish because my surname is not Irish sounding enough.

Fcuk off.

bodice ripper · 26-10-2015 02:03PM

Growing up in Ireland with an American accent was highly unpleasant. Things have improved dramatically in the last 20 years, but I haven't forgotten. Pricks.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 02:29PM

Sir Osis of Liver. wrote: »

Today I learned that I'm not really Irish because my surname is not Irish sounding enough.

Fcuk off.

Well if your name has English origins and isn't Gaelic Irish then you aren't fully Irish. Your roots clearly are in English. By definition.

The Backwards Man · 26-10-2015 02:37PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Well if your name has English origins and isn't Gaelic Irish then you aren't fully Irish. Your roots clearly are in English. By definition.

Without even thinking, I can come up with three dozen notable Irish republicans, (and I don't mean the modern day cowards) with names that a far from 'Gaelic'

Go away.

Sir Osis of Liver. · 26-10-2015 02:53PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Well if your name has English origins and isn't Gaelic Irish then you aren't fully Irish. Your roots clearly are in English. By definition.

What a load of sh1te.
Not fully Irish.

So generations of my forefathers have fooled the natives like yourself into thinking we were Irish when all along we were Brits.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 02:54PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Without even thinking, I can come up with three dozen notable Irish republicans, (and I don't mean the modern day cowards) with names that a far from 'Gaelic'

Go away.

People like Erksine Childers, Roger Casement and Constance Markievicz were Anglo-Irish Protesants who turned native. Doesn't make them Irish.
William Butler Yeats came from the same stock but he was never really Irish.
The real Irish are the Gaelic people of Ireland

kingchess · 26-10-2015 02:56PM

Have a very Irish surname-but I have to admit that my grannie on my fathers side of the family had a very(hang my head in shame at this point) Norman Name,ie she was a Barry.thankfully none of our neighbours seem to have held that against us and treated us as if we were of pure Gaelic stock,So I feel your pain joesephryann1171

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 02:58PM

Sir Osis of Liver. wrote: »

What a load of sh1te.
Not fully Irish.

So generations of my forefathers have fooled the natives like yourself into thinking we were Irish when all along we were Brits.

If you have a Norman surname, English surname or of Anglo-Irish Protestant stock you are not part of the ancient Gaelic Irish people. Simple as that.
In rural areas you will meet the real Irish not in the cities and towns which were garrisons of the English for centuries.
They talk in Irish accents alright but Dublin for me is still very much an Anglo city and the area around it is still the Pale.
South Dubliners sound English and the north Dublin accent is very similar to the English working class accent for me.
Leinster and Ulster were sown most heavily with English in the past while Connaught and Munster were pure.
They have distain for rural Irish people who are true Gaels.

feargale · 26-10-2015 03:27PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you have a Norman surname, English surname or of Anglo-Irish Protestant stock you are not part of the ancient Gaelic Irish people. Simple as that.

Spot the difference between Gaelic and Irish.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The real Irish are the Irish with Gaelic names and Gaelic roots that go back to before Norman rule. Simple as that. The rest are just blow ins. Irish legally today but blow ins all the same. They can blow out if they like!

Fifteen of my sixteen great-great-grandparents had Gaelic ( i.e. pre-Norman ) surnames. The sixteenth had a Norman surname. Which one-sixteenth of me would you like to blow out?

P.S. How much of yourself will be staying put?

The Corinthian · 26-10-2015 03:36PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you have a Norman surname, English surname or of Anglo-Irish Protestant stock you are not part of the ancient Gaelic Irish people. Simple as that.

Bah. Gaels. Iron age blow-ins. Not real Irish either.

TBH, the only people who believe they have a pure ethnic bloodline are those who can't trace back their family very far.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 03:36PM

feargale wrote: »

Spot the difference between Gaelic and Irish.

I think I have explained it.

Pre-Norman Ireland was populated by Gaelic people who spoke Gaelic dialects. It was only at the mouths of the major rivers where Viking people had built settlements. This Gaelic civilization persisted until the 17th century when it was finally destroyed by Cromwell and it was the Potato Famine that wiped out more than a million Gaelic speakers - the direct descendants of the pre-Norman Gaelic - who were the cottier class and scattered a million more to the four corners of the earth. If you look at the genes of people with Gaelic surnames you will discover their roots go right back to the pre-Norman period. People with Norman surnames are descendants of the Norman invaders and people with English, Scottish and Welsh surnames are descendants of planters who came to Ireland in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

So the real Irish are the Gaelic Irish while other people can claim to be legally Irish but are not real Irish people.

anvilfour · 26-10-2015 03:40PM

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

This isn't a wholly serious question, but I wonder how much emphasis those of us born and raised in Ireland place on accents. It seems accents are a hugely defining characteristic in how others designate someone's Irishness.

Taking someone like Michael Fassbender. Born in Germany, has a very German-sounding last name, but speaks with an Irish accent. The Irish press seems to have no problem claiming him as Irish.

But then look at an actor like Michael Gambon. Born in Dublin, raised Catholic but has a very English-accent. The Irish press, too, has claimed him as Irish.

Personally, which of these make you think of a person as Irish (or any nationality)?

Birthplace, or accent?

I would kindly ask that you refer to him as "The Great" Gambon please! :-D

feargale · 26-10-2015 03:44PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

I think I have explained it.

Pre-Norman Ireland was populated by Gaelic people who spoke Gaelic dialects. It was only at the mouths of the major rivers where Viking people had built settlements. This Gaelic civilization persisted until the 17th century when it was finally destroyed by Cromwell and it was the Potato Famine that wiped out more than a million Gaelic speakers - the direct descendants of the pre-Norman Gaelic - who were the cottier class and scattered a million more to the four corners of the earth. If you look at the genes of people with Gaelic surnames you will discover their roots go right back to the pre-Norman period. People with Norman surnames are descendants of the Norman invaders and people with English, Scottish and Welsh surnames are descendants of planters who came to Ireland in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

So the real Irish are the Gaelic Irish while other people can claim to be legally Irish but are not real Irish people.

I see. Then you should talk to your American and Australian cousins about who the real Americans and Australians are.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 04:02PM

feargale wrote: »

I see. Then you should talk to your American and Australian cousins about who the real Americans and Australians are.

You can't dispute genetic research, history and genealogy. The Gaelic Irish are the native Irish and truly Irish.

"Americans" are predominantly descendants of German, Irish, African American and English.

"Australians" are predominantly descendants of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

The Backwards Man · 26-10-2015 04:08PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

People like Erksine Childers, Roger Casement and Constance Markievicz were Anglo-Irish Protesants who turned native. Doesn't make them Irish.
William Butler Yeats came from the same stock but he was never really Irish.
The real Irish are the Gaelic people of Ireland

Like you?

I'd say you're pure alright.

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 04:11PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Like you?

I'd say you're pure alright.

The Gaelic Irish are the real Irish. Always have and always will.
Are you actually disputing genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical facts?

The Corinthian · 26-10-2015 04:19PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Gaelic Irish are the real Irish. Always have and always will.
Are you actually disputing genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical facts?

No, you are. The Gaelic Irish only appeared in Ireland during the Iron age, supplanting the previous, non-Gael, population. So "always have" is genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical rubbish.

As for "always will", that's a prophesy that only a fool would make.

So, you believe yourself to be of pure descent of the Irish Gaels? On what basis?

josephryan1989 · 26-10-2015 04:23PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, you are. The Gaelic Irish only appeared in Ireland during the Iron age, supplanting the previous, non-Gael, population. So "always have" is genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical rubbish.

As for "always will", that's a prophesy that only a fool would make.

So, you believe yourself to be of pure descent of the Irish Gaels? On what basis?

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

The Corinthian · 26-10-2015 04:35PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

No. If you're going to talk about ethnic purity, you should do so properly and stop inventing convenient historical points, that apparently constitute 'always have' even though the reality is the didn't.

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

Did the Iron age start in the 18th century then? Who knows, perhaps one generation prior to when your can no longer trace your ancestors, there was a Scot-planter married into your family. Or maybe they didn't even bother marrying.

I'm afraid, you don't measure up to even your limited purity standards.

For the record, I'm a bit of everything; Irish, English, Italian, Austrian, Russian, Tuscan, Frankish, Lombard and prior to that records become a little questionable.

The Backwards Man · 26-10-2015 05:05PM

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

Late 16th for me. I'm more Irish than you. Na na na na na

Playground stuff this.

whatismyname · 26-10-2015 05:14PM

Accent.

Specifically the ability to say a decent 'dirty tree and a turd'.

The Corinthian · 26-10-2015 05:33PM

whatismyname wrote: »

Accent.

Specifically the ability to say a decent 'dirty tree and a turd'.

Thing is there's no such thing as an 'Irish' accent? Is it a Cavan accent? Ulster? Cork? South Dublin? North Dublin? Kerry?

As for birthplace, as the Duke of Wellington once retorted when asked about his own Irish birth "just because one is born in a stable, does not make one a horse".

While some Irish ancestry may help to a degree, it probably comes down to what you are culturally, have in common with your community, your diet, education, expressions, attitudes and the like.

A compatriot is someone you will easily find commonality with if you should meet them on some far shore. That's what being Irish, or anything else, means in the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TzC2eqkFdk

What's more Irish - accent or birthplace?

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