What's more Irish - accent or birthplace?

MakeEmLaugh

This isn't a wholly serious question, but I wonder how much emphasis those of us born and raised in Ireland place on accents. It seems accents are a hugely defining characteristic in how others designate someone's Irishness.

Taking someone like Michael Fassbender. Born in Germany, has a very German-sounding last name, but speaks with an Irish accent. The Irish press seems to have no problem claiming him as Irish.

But then look at an actor like Michael Gambon. Born in Dublin, raised Catholic but has a very English-accent. The Irish press, too, has claimed him as Irish.

Personally, which of these make you think of a person as Irish (or any nationality)?

Birthplace, or accent?

dd972

Shane MacGowan has neither but he's still Irish through and through, then you have the likes of Francis Bacon or the Duke of Wellington thoroughly English in background and accent despite being born and raised here, these things are elastic and nuanced.

dodderangler

Neither. Must smell of Guinness and ham cabbage and badatoes
And finish every sentence with be gosh or be gara or sweet mother Devine Jaysus. Also walks around whistling lonesome boatman and discussing the Shiite weather

I reckon I'm as irish as you'd get

The Backwards Man

Neither.

There's a big black Yank beside me that makes his own bread, churns his own butter, and stews his own jam. And he's handy at the turf too. Makes him more Irish than any poncy actor!

steamengine

Accent is really a superficial thing, definitely birthplace but even more so the specific part of Ireland where one's ancestors, particularly the male line, lived for generations.

riclad

I Lived near athlone, i had a country accent,
moved to dublin age 18 , now i have a dublin accent.
i did not try to change my accent .
Some djs have a bland mid atlantic accent ,
could be irish or english .
I think when you have an accent when you are 25 ,it,ll never change .
IT,S funny who many big american actors, comedians are born in canada,
and just make usa tv films,
Many people probably just assume they are american.
they have an american accent .
IF you are born in ireland , you,ll always be irish .even if you have an english accent .

Richard Hillman

Mannerisms.

Ruu

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Mannerisms.

*monocle falls out*

bee06

Why does it have to be one or the other? Michael Fassbender was born in Germany but grew up in Kerry so had an Irish childhood. Someone might be born in Ireland, grow up in England with an English accent but still feel Irish because they grew up with Irish parents in an Irish ex-pat community. They can all identify as Irish as far as I'm concerned.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

To be fair to Mr. Fassbender there's no need to 'claim' him. He was raised in Kerry and has an Irish passport so he's as Irish as anybody. Saying he has a German sounding name doesn't really make him German, it's not like we can say sure Shaquille O Neal must be Irish because he has an O in his surname. So to partly answer your question does accent or birthplace make someone Irish or not, it's certainly not surnames.

I googled Michael Gambon and it says he moved away from Dublin aged 5 and grew up in England. He has dual citizenship so he can be considered an 'Anglo-Irish' person I guess, and a lot of people would fit the 'Anglo-Irish' description to be fair, I guess you could consider it almost its own identity in a way?

I think accents can tell a lot more about a person than their birthplace anyway as your accent reflects more of who you are/where you came from. Like a white South African could 'blend' into a European country without really standing out as 'different', but once they open their mouths you can tell very quickly that they are African. In a somewhat awkward way I'm trying to say accents can tell you more about a person than their race, which I find somewhat odd as skin colour is made out to be such a big deal.

Canadel

Very strong accents are rather annoying after the novelty wears off. A neutral accent is by far the most pleasant in my experience, and I don't refer to D4 when I say neutral, rather simply well spoken and refined without desperately attempting to inform others of where you are from through an exaggerated twang. Basically people choose to have strong accents once they reach a certain age if they have received any decent sort of speech and therapy training in school.

catbear

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

But then look at an actor like Michael Gambon. Born in Dublin, raised Catholic but has a very English-accent. The Irish press, too, has claimed him as Irish.

So only catholics can have an Irish accent?

Boring username

Funny, most Irish actors and celebrities dump the accent the first chance they get don'tchaknowohMyGawd

ygolometsipe

I wonder would Mr Fassbender be able to talk to the Germans
about getting out Taytos back since he knows them and all.

LeeLooLee

Accent because that means you most likely grew up in Ireland and know the country well.

4zn76tysfajdxp

dd972 wrote: »

Shane MacGowan has neither but he's still Irish through and through

He's not, really.

Precious flower

I was born in England but spent most of my life here so I would consider myself Irish. Depends on what the person feels them self really.

LordSutch

dd972 wrote: »

Shane MacGowan has neither but he's still Irish through and through, then you have the likes of Francis Bacon or the Duke of Wellington thoroughly English in background and accent despite being born and raised here, these things are elastic and nuanced.

Good answer to a tricky & debatable question.

Its a personal thing.

DanielODonnell

Irish accents are only a modern thing as they only formed when English started to be spoken, for example if you hear an Ulsterman speak irish or a Scot speaking Gaelic the distinct accents aren't that noticeable.

In my eyes the term "Irish" is simply a modern tag in this modern world of political divisions.

Anyone can be Irish if they move to Hibernia but to be a Gael you need to have it in your blood. Irishmen and Gaels are not equal.
Dublin is viewed as the stronghold of everything Irish but it was never the stronghold of the Gaelic world.

Another way of explaining it is that it is possible to move to Australia and gain citizenship but it doesn't mean you are aboriginal, even if you go and live in an aboriginal community.

MakeEmLaugh

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

But then look at an actor like Michael Gambon. Born in Dublin, raised Catholic but has a very English accent. The Irish press, too, has claimed him as Irish.

catbear wrote: »

So only catholics can have an Irish accent?

I'm sorry, I don't follow you.

feargale

You have a few open soup packets in the dresser, all with just a little left, but enough altogether to make a bowl of soup. You pour them all into the pot, tomato, oxtail, leek and chicken. You stir it continuously, bringing it to the boil. Then you pour it out and slobber up a spoonful. What did you slobber up, tomato, oxtail, leek or chicken?

TheLastMohican

State of mind. That's it!

Calibos

I've got Scandinavian ancestors who emigrated to northern France and eventually settled in Bray after a short stay in Britain. Dropped the 'le' part of the name sometime in the last 800 years since. Am I Irish or a Gael?

Wompa1

Born in the US. Parents moved me to Ireland when I was 1. Grew up and lived in Ireland for 26 years. I'd consider myself to be Irish, though, plenty of times growing up and even in recent years I have been told by others that I'm not.

Galwayguy35

It's not accent anyway listing to the way people who are teenagers and in their early 20s talk, they grew up in the same area as my generation and speak with an accent that's something between Dublin 4 and Beverly hills 90210.

Wompa1

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

It's not accent anyway listing to the way people who are teenagers and in their early 20s talk, they grew up in the same area as my generation and speak with an accent that's something between Dublin 4 and Beverly hills 90210.

In Galway, like?

Galwayguy35

Wompa1 wrote: »

In Galway, like?

Ha yeah hard to believe!

Lucky you though, being born in the US, it's great to have the choice of living in either country.

I'd be out of here in a shot if I had American citizenship.

OhDearyMe

Going to go with neither. I know plenty of people who weren't born in Ireland but were raised there - 2 of my siblings, for example. Accents are not fixed either - I know people who've moved away and they're accent has adapted to their adopted country but they're obviously Irish as Irish can be.

dd972

Henry Muscular Spike wrote: »

He's not, really.

So he's a Brit then?, you'd end up with less teeth than him if you called him that at a Pogues gig :pac: He's got two Irish parents, Irish citizenship and lived here on and off over the years, I'd guess that'd make him pretty much...er.....Irish?

sligojoek

He was born prematurely, in Kent, when his parents were over visiting relatives for xmas. After xmas he was brought home again and lived in Tipperary till he was 6 or 7. After that his parents emmigrated to London. He would have picked up his accent after that. He's spent most of the last 30 years between Tipp and Dublin and only goes to London for work. He holds an Irish passport. I've seen it.

Teafor two12345

Accent?

Teafor two12345

One could say citizenship trumps all.

josephryan1989

If you are native born white Irish person whose family have been living here from at least the Norman conquest you are Irish.
Anyone else is not really Irish. They haven't been here long enough. Legally you are Irish but you aren't really Irish.
The major root of my name derives from Rian, the mid-10th century King of the territory Ui Cinsealaigh in South Leinster and I have traced my family records all the way back to the 18th century which is a far as you can go with Irish records.
I'm Irish and proud.
There are plenty of people with Hiberno-Norman names and I would consider them just about Irish.
People with obviously English names who come from planter stock are Anglo-Irish but not really Irish.
Protestants who don't identify with Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic culture and tradition aren't really Irish in my view i.e. Daniel Day Lewis for example who is the from a Anglo-Irish Protestant family that arrived after Cromwell.
Lord Mount Charles and other Anglo-Irish Protestants are just British aristocrats and not Irish at all.
Scots-Irish in Northern Ireland see themselves as British.
Eastern Europeans and Africans and Chinese and South Americans and others have settled here and have kids with Irish citizenship and Irish accents but they aren't Irish really and it will be a few centuries before their differences disappear.

jester77

Most Irish is about how many beers you can handle.

Teafor two12345

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you are native born white Irish person whose family have been living here from at least the NORMAN CONQUEST you are Irish.
Anyone else is not really Irish. They haven't been here long enough.

Oh....I don't think I'm Irish!?????????

LordSutch

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you are native born white Irish person whose family have been living here from at least the Norman conquest you are Irish.
Anyone else is not really Irish. They haven't been here long enough.

Wow, that throws up many deep questions on many fronts, from Northern Ireland, to families from the continent who settled here in the ROI during WWII (Geldofs inc), to the Shane MacGowans of this world, to all sorts of deep questions

My own family (on both sides) would have landed here during the 1600s.

Complicated it is.

josephryan1989

LordSutch wrote: »

Wow, that throws up many deep questions on many fronts, from Northern Ireland, to families from the continent who settled here in the ROI during WWII (Geldofs inc), to the Shane MacGowans of this world, to all sorts of deep questions

My own family (on both sides) would have landed here during the 1600s.

Complicated it is.

The real Irish are the Irish with Gaelic names and Gaelic roots that go back to before Norman rule. Simple as that. The rest are just blow ins. Irish legally today but blow ins all the same. They can blow out if they like!

Teafor two12345

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The real Irish are the Irish with Gaelic names and Gaelic roots that go back to before Norman rule. Simple as that. The rest are just blow ins. Irish legally today but blow ins all the same.

Being Irish ain't all that.

josephryan1989

Teafor two12345 wrote: »

Being Irish ain't all that.

Well it is! So there!

Sir Osis of Liver.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

People with obviously English names who come from planter stock are Anglo-Irish but not really Irish.

Today I learned that I'm not really Irish because my surname is not Irish sounding enough.

Fcuk off.

bodice ripper

Growing up in Ireland with an American accent was highly unpleasant. Things have improved dramatically in the last 20 years, but I haven't forgotten. Pricks.

josephryan1989

Sir Osis of Liver. wrote: »

Today I learned that I'm not really Irish because my surname is not Irish sounding enough.

Fcuk off.

Well if your name has English origins and isn't Gaelic Irish then you aren't fully Irish. Your roots clearly are in English. By definition.

The Backwards Man

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Well if your name has English origins and isn't Gaelic Irish then you aren't fully Irish. Your roots clearly are in English. By definition.

Without even thinking, I can come up with three dozen notable Irish republicans, (and I don't mean the modern day cowards) with names that a far from 'Gaelic'

Go away.

Sir Osis of Liver.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Well if your name has English origins and isn't Gaelic Irish then you aren't fully Irish. Your roots clearly are in English. By definition.

What a load of sh1te.
Not fully Irish.

So generations of my forefathers have fooled the natives like yourself into thinking we were Irish when all along we were Brits.

josephryan1989

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Without even thinking, I can come up with three dozen notable Irish republicans, (and I don't mean the modern day cowards) with names that a far from 'Gaelic'

Go away.

People like Erksine Childers, Roger Casement and Constance Markievicz were Anglo-Irish Protesants who turned native. Doesn't make them Irish.
William Butler Yeats came from the same stock but he was never really Irish.
The real Irish are the Gaelic people of Ireland

kingchess

Have a very Irish surname-but I have to admit that my grannie on my fathers side of the family had a very(hang my head in shame at this point) Norman Name,ie she was a Barry.thankfully none of our neighbours seem to have held that against us and treated us as if we were of pure Gaelic stock,So I feel your pain joesephryann1171

josephryan1989

Sir Osis of Liver. wrote: »

What a load of sh1te.
Not fully Irish.

So generations of my forefathers have fooled the natives like yourself into thinking we were Irish when all along we were Brits.

If you have a Norman surname, English surname or of Anglo-Irish Protestant stock you are not part of the ancient Gaelic Irish people. Simple as that.
In rural areas you will meet the real Irish not in the cities and towns which were garrisons of the English for centuries.
They talk in Irish accents alright but Dublin for me is still very much an Anglo city and the area around it is still the Pale.
South Dubliners sound English and the north Dublin accent is very similar to the English working class accent for me.
Leinster and Ulster were sown most heavily with English in the past while Connaught and Munster were pure.
They have distain for rural Irish people who are true Gaels.

feargale

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you have a Norman surname, English surname or of Anglo-Irish Protestant stock you are not part of the ancient Gaelic Irish people. Simple as that.

Spot the difference between Gaelic and Irish.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The real Irish are the Irish with Gaelic names and Gaelic roots that go back to before Norman rule. Simple as that. The rest are just blow ins. Irish legally today but blow ins all the same. They can blow out if they like!

Fifteen of my sixteen great-great-grandparents had Gaelic ( i.e. pre-Norman ) surnames. The sixteenth had a Norman surname. Which one-sixteenth of me would you like to blow out?

P.S. How much of yourself will be staying put?

The Corinthian

josephryan1989 wrote: »

If you have a Norman surname, English surname or of Anglo-Irish Protestant stock you are not part of the ancient Gaelic Irish people. Simple as that.

Bah. Gaels. Iron age blow-ins. Not real Irish either.

TBH, the only people who believe they have a pure ethnic bloodline are those who can't trace back their family very far.

josephryan1989

feargale wrote: »

Spot the difference between Gaelic and Irish.

I think I have explained it.

Pre-Norman Ireland was populated by Gaelic people who spoke Gaelic dialects. It was only at the mouths of the major rivers where Viking people had built settlements. This Gaelic civilization persisted until the 17th century when it was finally destroyed by Cromwell and it was the Potato Famine that wiped out more than a million Gaelic speakers - the direct descendants of the pre-Norman Gaelic - who were the cottier class and scattered a million more to the four corners of the earth. If you look at the genes of people with Gaelic surnames you will discover their roots go right back to the pre-Norman period. People with Norman surnames are descendants of the Norman invaders and people with English, Scottish and Welsh surnames are descendants of planters who came to Ireland in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

So the real Irish are the Gaelic Irish while other people can claim to be legally Irish but are not real Irish people.

anvilfour

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

This isn't a wholly serious question, but I wonder how much emphasis those of us born and raised in Ireland place on accents. It seems accents are a hugely defining characteristic in how others designate someone's Irishness.

Taking someone like Michael Fassbender. Born in Germany, has a very German-sounding last name, but speaks with an Irish accent. The Irish press seems to have no problem claiming him as Irish.

But then look at an actor like Michael Gambon. Born in Dublin, raised Catholic but has a very English-accent. The Irish press, too, has claimed him as Irish.

Personally, which of these make you think of a person as Irish (or any nationality)?

Birthplace, or accent?

I would kindly ask that you refer to him as "The Great" Gambon please! :-D