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Fire at a halting site in Dublin *Mod Warning Post #1*

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Comments

  • #392
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    efb wrote: »
    I'll be living beside them 3 years this month and that has never happened me.

    No anti social behaviour either!!

    No blacks No Irish eh?

    You're lucky. There are two halting sites close to where I live and both always have rubbish strewn across them and outside them. With one of the sites there is a very definite anti-social problem emanating from one of the families.

    Now I am positive that the vast majority of travelers are lovely people but they do seem to have a very definite problem sorting out the antisocial elements within their community. Until they sort this out they won't be welcomed with open arms by other communities within Irish society with open arms because who wants to potentially turn their area into a litter infested crime zone willingly.


  • #393
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    efb wrote: »
    Replace traveller with black or Catholic and see how it reads
    It reads perfectly fine. The ethnicity here is incidental. These people are a known anti-social crowd.

    Imagine a black family lived on the other side of your estate and had a reputation for being loud, disruptive and abusive to other residents. Now imagine they were left homeless by a fire and the council proposed putting them into the house adjoining yours.

    Are you a racist for objecting? No, of course you're not.

    The problem here is people playing the race card as a catch-all way of undermining valid objections. In fact it makes those using it look like Helen Lovejoys rather than rational people.

    This is not a race issue. This is an issue of anti-social behaviour. The residents aren't protesting because they're travellers, they're protesting because they're scumbags - according to the residents anyway.


  • #394
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    gandalf wrote: »
    You're lucky. There are two close to where I live and both always have rubbish strewn across them and outside them. With one of the sites there is a very definite anti-social problem emanating from one of the families.

    Now I am positive that the vast majority of travelers are lovely people but they do seem to have a very definite problem sorting out the antisocial elements within their community. Until they sort this out they won't be welcomed with open arms by other communities within Irish society with open arms because who wants to potentially turn their area into a litter infested crime zone willingly.

    One family? Name one estate in Ireland that doesn't have a bad family???


  • #395
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    seamus wrote: »
    It reads perfectly fine. The ethnicity here is incidental. These people are a known anti-social crowd.

    Imagine a black family lived on the other side of your estate and had a reputation for being loud, disruptive and abusive to other residents. Now imagine they were left homeless by a fire and the council proposed putting them into the house adjoining yours.

    Are you a racist for objecting? No, of course you're not.

    The problem here is people playing the race card as a catch-all way of undermining.

    This is not a race issue. This is an issue of anti-social behaviour. The residents aren't protesting because they're travellers, they're protesting because they're scumbags - according to the residents anyway.


    So all moving in are scumbags??? How do you or they know this???


  • #396
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    efb wrote: »
    So all moving in are scumbags??? How do you or they know this???

    The residents have lived in proximity to them since either they moved there or the original site was constructed. Its safe to say they might have a better knowledge of their behaviour than you or the rest of the bleeding heart brigade.


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  • #397
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,463 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    efb wrote: »
    Or maybe I'm not as quick to prejudge and label

    I campaigned last spring for equality I'm not going to be a hypocrite

    For every case you can provide of law-abiding travellers, i can provide 10 examples of ruined neighbourhoods.

    Were they to move in beside me, i wouldn't wait for the fairly strong odds of my home area being trashed.

    I'll start treating travellers as law-abiding, upstanding citizens, when they start ****ing acting like it, not before.


  • #398
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    efb wrote: »
    One family? Name one estate in Ireland that doesn't have a bad family???

    Out of ten houses and no one in their community sees anything wrong with what they do. If they took responsibility for their community and helped to bring the anti-social elements into check then I think the traveling community would go a long way to sorting out the current mainstream perceptions that mar their image. They don't co-operate with the authorities against the anti-social elements within their community and couple this with the blatant disregard for their immediate environment through littering I can see a very valid reason for home owners who have paid for their own homes over the years in resisting them being foisted upon the home owners community.


  • #399
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    VinLieger wrote: »
    The residents have lived in proximity to them since either they moved there or the original site was constructed. Its safe to say they might have a better knowledge of their behaviour than you or the rest of the bleeding heart brigade.

    I would wager that any other group of residents put in the same situ would do exactly the same.
    Why aren't there people putting their hands up offering living spaces a la the Syrians? Answers on a postcard.


  • #400
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    For every case you can provide of law-abiding travellers, i can provide 10 examples of ruined neighbourhoods.

    Were they to move in beside me, i wouldn't wait for the fairly strong odds of my home area being trashed.

    I'll start treating travellers as law-abiding, upstanding citizens, when they start ****ing acting like it, not before.

    So you are painting them all with the one brush, nice


  • #401
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    gandalf wrote: »
    Out of ten houses and no one in their community sees anything wrong with what they do. If they took responsibility for their community and helped to bring the anti-social elements into check then I think the traveling community would go a long way to sorting out the current mainstream perceptions that mar their image. They don't co-operate with the authorities against the anti-social elements within their community and couple this with the blatant disregard for their immediate environment through littering I can see a very valid reason for home owners who have paid for their own homes over the years in resisting them being foisted upon the home owners community.

    Do settled communities actively discourage their trouble makers???


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  • #402
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    VinLieger wrote: »
    The residents have lived in proximity to them since either they moved there or the original site was constructed. Its safe to say they might have a better knowledge of their behaviour than you or the rest of the bleeding heart brigade.

    Do they know who is moving in? Very positive reports about the family directly affected by the fire


  • #403
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    seamus wrote: »
    It reads perfectly fine. The ethnicity here is incidental. These people are a known anti-social crowd.

    Imagine a black family lived on the other side of your estate and had a reputation for being loud, disruptive and abusive to other residents. Now imagine they were left homeless by a fire and the council proposed putting them into the house adjoining yours.

    Are you a racist for objecting? No, of course you're not.

    The problem here is people playing the race card as a catch-all way of undermining valid objections. In fact it makes those using it look like Helen Lovejoys rather than rational people.

    This is not a race issue. This is an issue of anti-social behaviour. The residents aren't protesting because they're travellers, they're protesting because they're scumbags - according to the residents anyway.

    I wasn't aware the family made homeless were scumbags... Heard the opposite in fact


  • #404
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,870 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    In my opinion (which no one asked for but f*ck you this is the internet so I'll give it anyway), the solution, as per usual, lies somewhere in the middle.

    People need to realise that not all travellers are anti-social or engage in criminality, and that we shouldn't tar them all with the same brush. These people, particularly the ones at the centre of this most recent tragedy, need to be relocated somewhere. And if people were more accepting of travellers, maybe there'd be less inclination for travellers to engage in anti-social behaviour, out of respect of those who showed respect to them.

    At the same time, travellers have to accept that an above-average proportion of their community engages in criminality and anti-social behaviour and gives their community a very bad name. The good need to separate from the bad and actively condemn them. If they did, maybe there'd be less inclination for people to prejudge them and they would be accepted and integrated into the wider community more easily.


  • #405
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    efb wrote: »
    Do they know who is moving in? Very positive reports about the family directly affected by the fire

    And previously in this thread and the other that got closed there has been the opposite about the group who lived on the site.


  • #406
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    VinLieger wrote: »
    And previously in this thread and the other that got closed there has been the opposite about the group who lived on the site.

    Will if it's said on boards that's certifiable. Must be scum so.


  • #407
    whatismyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    VinLieger wrote: »
    And previously in this thread and the other that got closed there has been the opposite about the group who lived on the site.

    The site that the homeless people are due to move into, or the site where they lived which had the fire?


  • #408
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Penn wrote: »
    In my opinion (which no one asked for but f*ck you this is the internet so I'll give it anyway), the solution, as per usual, lies somewhere in the middle.

    People need to realise that not all travellers are anti-social or engage in criminality, and that we shouldn't tar them all with the same brush. These people, particularly the ones at the centre of this most recent tragedy, need to be relocated somewhere. And if people were more accepting of travellers, maybe there'd be less inclination for travellers to engage in anti-social behaviour, out of respect of those who showed respect to them.

    At the same time, travellers have to accept that an above-average proportion of their community engages in criminality and anti-social behaviour and gives their community a very bad name. The good need to separate from the bad and actively condemn them. If they did, maybe there'd be less inclination for people to prejudge them and they would be accepted and integrated into the wider community more easily.

    All well made points, but like say weaning the nation off alcohol, it's never going to happen.
    Both communities have been driving each other nuts and rubbing each other the wrong way up for donkeys years, how could such a mass shift in attitudes even take place?


  • #409
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    efb wrote: »
    Will if it's said on boards that's certifiable. Must be scum so.

    And if its said anonymously to the media then it must also be true.


  • #410
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    VinLieger wrote: »
    And if its said anonymously to the media then it must also be true.

    It wasn't anonymous


  • #411
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,992 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    efb wrote: »
    I'll be living beside them 3 years this month and that has never happened me.

    No anti social behaviour either!!

    No blacks No Irish eh?

    Beside these families or other families? Because if it's other families then you're making the exact same time of sweeping generalisations that you are complaining about others doing.


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  • #412
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    efb wrote: »
    It wasn't anonymous

    Link?


  • #413
    ArielAtom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    These people must be housed somewhere, the council have a problem on their hands. No one wants them beside their homes. The families will not return to the site where the fire was as its bad luck in their culture, they will probably torch any remaining houses and look for alternative housing.

    It was short notice as it was an emergency to have them housed.


  • #414
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,992 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    efb wrote: »
    So all moving in are scumbags??? How do you or they know this???

    Go up to Wayside Celtic FC, or De La Salle Palmerston RFC, and ask about whether there's been problems with these specific families.

    Might give an idea of why the residents of the estate, who are already familiar with these specific families, have objections.

    Of course, arming yourself with actual facts from the locality would impinge on your ability to label anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot.


  • #415
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Beside these families or other families? Because if it's other families then you're making the exact same time of sweeping generalisations that you are complaining about others doing.

    I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty

    So no, it's not the same as hang them all let god decide...


  • #416
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,096 ✭✭✭conorhal


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    All well made points, but like say weaning the nation off alcohol, it's never going to happen.
    Both communities have been driving each other nuts and rubbing each other the wrong way up for donkeys years, how could such a mass shift in attitudes even take place?

    Perhaps if the counsel and the Guards actually dealt with antisocial behaviour it would fix the problem.

    Head over to the property forum and read a few of the absolute horror stories about people that have had their piece of mind, health and lives destroyed by anti-social neighbours.
    Give this piece a specific read an realise that a tenant\neighbour can piss up against your door, threaten you with violence, make your home unliveable and leave you living in constant fear while all around you those who should be doing something about it, from the guards, to the landlord, to the counsel that rents a property on the individuals behalf, all stand by and do nothing. It's really shocking.
    If swift action was taken against people like this there would be no problems:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057506647

    Hi there,

    My brother bought an apartment 12 years ago. It has been rented to a friend of his for 10 years.

    In February 2014, the apartment below my brothers was rented to a male, Mr X by the county council.

    He began complaining about the noise made by the my brothers friend.
    She was living there for 10 years, without a single incident of noise complaint from her or any other neighbor's.

    He quickly became abusive and intimidating towards her.

    She made a complaint to the Gardai.

    We tried to contact the owner of the apartment downstairs, but the owner has not returned our calls, texts, emails or letters.

    She moved out in November 2014 in fear of her safety.

    For the next 7 months, the apartment was un rented.

    We then found a tenant via the RAS scheme in June. From the day the apartment was rented, Mr X was very abusive to the tenant, and even more threatening than before.

    During the last 3 months, he assaulted the new tenant (and was arrested by the Gardai, but shortly released), put a key into the front door and used a hammer to deform the lock, forcing us to have a locksmith replace the entire lock on the door.

    At least twice a week, Mr X urinates on the front door of the apartment.

    The Gardai have been notified of this and each time the county council have been informed.

    The County Council have told us an eviction notice has been served against Mr X, but Mr X has appealed this through a solicitor. (Can we believe this? or is this just a passing the buck response)

    The County Council appear reluctant to deal with the situation and instead, they relocated the tenant from our apartment. He didn't want to move, but felt reluctant to do so for safety and peace of mind. (He's a student and has a young daughter).

    We are now left with an apartment we cannot rent due to Mr X.

    The County Council are interested in taking our apartment, but they feel it would be impossible to find a tenant due to Mr X downstairs, and as such will not move forward with renting the apartment from us.

    There is an elderly woman living above our apartment, and she has requested to be moved from the building as she also fears for her safety.
    She won't make a complaint to the Gardai, due to extreme intimidation from Mr X.

    He is also very abusive to a couple living in the final apartment.

    The main door to the apartment block was broken by Mr X, to the point where anyone can push the door open.

    There is a very noticeable smell of drugs from his apartment, in particular on Monday and Tuesday.

    The smell of urine in the stairway is beyond ability to stomach.

    Around 4am every morning, he will repeatedly bang on walls and ceilings for 30 minutes to let the other tenants know he is going to sleep.

    He sleeps until around 11am each morning, and any noise made by any tenant is met with extreme hostility, abuse, both verbal and bordering physical, and very often leads to random acts of defamation on front doors, such as urine, broken locks, kick marks on doors etc.

    This is just a small sample of issues caused by him.

    Were now concerned for the entire apartment block, as with the elderly lady upstairs looking for a transfer out, the other couple are also planning to move away.

    This will leave him being the only tenant left, and the other three apartments will remain vacant. We don't want the block to fall into disrepair as a result of him remaining there, let alone the loss of income from the apartment.

    We have been pleading with the Gardai, County Council, local TD's and the management company of the apartment block, but each time we are met with further delays, excuses, in-ability to do anything.

    Can anyone please, give us some advice on what to do? I feel like beating him to an inch of his life, but I know this will do absolutely nothing to help resolve the matter, and will only end up with me being arrested for assault.

    We are desperate at this stage.

    The property thread is FULL of such posts. Now tell me, would you want to risk living next to this mess?


  • #417
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    Knee jerk reaction by the council , lack of consultation with the residents is 100% to blame. Seriously what did they expect ?

    The family's could have been housed in hotels like all the other homeless people in Dublin.

    After proper consultation and planning a permanent site could have been found. I'm sure the travellers wouldn't want to return to the previous "temporary" site where the tragedy took place.

    The proposed new "temporary" site is not suitable.

    It all begs the question what where the councils plans for finding the travellers a permanent site before this tragedy happened ? They where happy to leave them be living in a none suitable site which I'm sure will be exposed as a major reason for the extent of the tragedy. Now they want to shame the residents of that estate into accepting another below standard residences built next to them without consultation.

    Alan Kelly and the council should hang their heads in shame for creating this smoke screen to absolve them of their responsibility


  • #418
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Go up to Wayside Celtic FC, or De La Salle Palmerston RFC, and ask about whether there's been problems with these specific families.

    Might give an idea of why the residents of the estate, who are already familiar with these specific families, have objections.

    Of course, arming yourself with actual facts from the locality would impinge on your ability to label anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot.

    Not everyone who disagrees with me is a bigot!

    Where is your evidence of the people being housed as Scumbags???


  • #419
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    conorhal wrote: »
    Perhaps if the counsel and the Guards actually dealt with antisocial behaviour it would fix the problem.

    Head over to the property forum and read a few of the absolute horror stories about people that have had their piece of mind, health and lives destroyed by anti-social neighbours.
    Give this piece a specific read an realise that a tenant\neighbour can piss up against your door, threaten you with violence, make your home unliveable and leave you living in constant fear while all around you those who should be doing something about it, from the guards, to the landlord, to the counsel that rents a property on the individuals behalf, all stand by and do nothing. It's really shocking.
    If swift action was taken against people like this there would be no problems:

    http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057506647




    Now tell me, would you want to risk living next to this mess?

    No. But innocent until proven guilty


  • #420
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Go up to Wayside Celtic FC, or De La Salle Palmerston RFC, and ask about whether there's been problems with these specific families.

    Might give an idea of why the residents of the estate, who are already familiar with these specific families, have objections.

    Of course, arming yourself with actual facts from the locality would impinge on your ability to label anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot.

    You present the evidence of them being scumbags- that's how it works.

    People are proven guilty, not innocent. Innocent is the default


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  • #421
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Does this mean anyone in the UK that had a problem with Irish tenants is entitled to ban all Irish???


This discussion has been closed.
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