DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

What an EPIC post, DG, my word, you're exceeding your own dizzying high standards. I was in work when I saw it come in and have been trying to read it ever since

IMHO, this sums it all up: "DONT BE TOO ATTACHED TO THE OUTCOME".

Here comes a bit of waffle. We all want to do great things on the day, times and performances that all our efforts over the past months deserve. But really, the first, and foremost thing, is to listen to our bodies during the event itself and do what they tell us to do. Who cares about whatever arbitrary finish time we have in mind, what's important is that we don't do any physical harm to ourselves. As I was reading last years' race reports, it struck me how many runners ended up in first aid, and worse. It's just a run, folks, at the end of the day - let's get home safe and sound. The second goal is to finish it, enjoy it, meet you all for a pint - if not two, and have a story to tell our grandchildren. Everything else is irrelevant.

Speaking of last years' reports, here's a confession: I read them all in the weeks following DCM 2014, and subconsciously made the decision to run this year. So there - I actually can't believe we're here.

Having said that - I have done some thinking about personal targets.

Training has gone well beyond expectations. Early on in the program I was struggling to try and fit it all in, but that was only temporarily. I checked all LSR boxes, ran further and longer than ever before, and ran some modest PBs on 5k, 10k, and 10M in the process. I actually entered those run-times in one of those online race result calculators and the outcomes make me laugh, they're so unrealistic.

The training run I enjoyed the most was the 13M @ >PMP I ran instead of the DCHM. I nearly ran a HM PB while joking around with a friend and that gave (still gives) me plenty of confidence - I had so much left in the tank. Had we pushed the pace a bit, I am sure I'd take a chunk off. I am also immensely proud of the 2x 20M runs (one in the company of fellow Novice-greatness).

The hardest run, by a mile (har-har), was the 11M @ PMP I ran in the soaring heat in Seattle. Actually it was a great warning sign against hot and humid weather (not likely to be repeated on the day, in fairness) but also the feeling of "this is not going very well". If I recognize that on the day I am going to drop the pace by at least a minute/mile. The most "HTFU" run of all was 17M through far West Beara, my calves still haven't forgiven me for that one.

So, I think most controllables are under control. I have been leaning to go with conventional wisdom and calculate (HM * 2) + 20 min =~ 4 hours, based on a pre-training HM PB of 1h49 in Connemara (April this year). All going well, I hope to line up somewhere behind the 4 hour balloons and see where it takes me - hopefully outrun them. There'll be some awesomeness in wave-2, too, and I hope to see you all at the start AND finish - none more so than diego_b, I am so impressed with your willpower, mate!

But one thing is for sure, if it feels like it isn't my day time-wise, I'll drop my goal faster than I set it, and will just aim to finish it, and soak up the atmosphere.

Dubgal72 wrote: »

I see meno advised not to reduce your frequency too much and he's got a good point, however as you have missed quite a few midweek runs, on no account increase your running frequency at this stage either How's the ankle holding up now you've stopped the lsrs?

Thanks for the reply DG. Yeah meno's point makes perfect sense for someone that has done all their midweek runs but unfortunately that does not apply to me. I am going to try and do 3 more runs of around 6 miles and get to the start well rested and pain free. The ankle will be okay on the day if I am careful with it from here on in. I have decided not to go for the 3.30 as originally planned and to go with the 3.40 pacers. If things go well I might dip into the 3.30's and if not I may still come in under 4.00 which I would have to be happy with considering how miserable my training has been.
I am wondering though that going with the slower time means all my LSR's have been too fast, will this be a problem on the day?

Dubgal72 wrote:

What strikes me diego, is your absolute thoroughness and honesty in analysing your approach. Go for it! I feel that you are just super-aware of your body and so in tune. Fwiw, I think that your approach - for your circumstances - is spot on and means that we're going to be reading all about your exploits throughout 2016.

Ah thanks Dubgal, your support and everyone else here too is just tremendous.
It's a long way to run if you're not happy with what you're doing or to be able for it! Being honest as well my ego tells me to push for the sub 4hr for what kudos that may get me off friends but my brain has always been smarter than my ego and kept me out of trouble.
As I have gone up each distance from 5K on I know I can go possibly go faster but each time for the first run you don't know you can do the distance till you do the distance so I try to give some caution! Knowing as well that a positive experience for me means the first time is never the last time.
I was more anxious about the training than the race itself starting off, just with the fear of not being physically able. My wife joked recently that she thought I was breezing through the training as barring going to bed for the odd 30-45mins after the longer LSRs it's been fine...until the knee started acting up.
I have been very happy myself with training to date barring my recent knee niggle in the last few but I did expect something to come up given my almost complete inactivity for my complete adult life to the age of 31. The niggles, so far have come and gone every so often just a little hurdle here and there to overcome.
Long may running and races last, seeing people at races who are significantly older than myself I find hugely inspiring and gives me great hope for the future.

nop98 wrote:

There'll be some awesomeness in wave-2, too, and I hope to see you all at the start AND finish - none more so than diego_b, I am so impressed with your willpower, mate!

Ah shucks Nop thanks, don't get too far up the pack and I won't be too far behind you all going well!! Def wear your visor if not the full traffic light outfit and I'll spot you!

Course Overview


Its pretty hard to add anything useful to the great work provided by Smashiner, TFGR, yaboyo etc..

I will add a few pointers from my own perspective that might be useful. First off, I am in the 4hr category with a "be careful" warning. I have never run a marathon the complete distance before so I am taking a conservative stance in order to finish the event. I think that this awareness has really influenced how I view the course. I want to mind myself out there!!!

I have broken the course down into sections, which appears to work for me, where I think that a certain approach is required.

Mile 1-2 Downhill to flat with great road surface. Will be well sheltered with the crowds. Containment on this section.. let space emerge and dont get carried away. Steady up on 100m steep incline on Patrick Street and steady down to Liffey on steep short decline.

Mile 2-7.5 Pretty well all uphill although only marginally so over a long distance. Stoneybatter to North Circular Road is the steepest section but is sheltered from prevailing winds. Aughrim Street is pretty narrow. Cannot imagine too much passing room here. Passing Garda HQ and west along Chesterfield Ave puts us into the prevailing wind for a few miles so take Smashiners advice and find shelter behind some group at your pace. It good be a nice investment in this early part of the race.

Mile 7.5-10 Sweet section where I will be happy to make up any time I need, within reason. Prevailing wind behind us and we sweep back into the park before exiting to the Liffey. Might be worth checking out downhill running form to save the quads. Feel free to take revenge on the Upper Glen Road for all the hearthache it gave us in the Race Series:)

Mile 10-13 Over the Liffey at Chapelizod and catch breath for the St. Lawrence Road hill which brings you under the Dual Carriageway. Will be taking it easy here and just maintain the effort as the next 2 miles are flat enough, bar a very short hill or two in Kilmainham. I imagine that the running crowd will have thinned out so think about the bends ahead and line up to your advantage. Again it is fairly sheltered along this section and prevailing winds (south-west) should be behind us, generally speaking.

Mile 13-15 Think SMASHINER here. Its Crumlin Road time up to Walkinstown Roundabout. It is a long but gentle rise with two very short less gentle rises at the very start. If its windy get behind SMASHINER. Once you pass the hospital things improve but it is very exposed to the south west. This section bridges the half way point so most of us will still be conserving some energy. That kind of encapsulates my approach on this section - mark time and enjoy the company.

Mile 15-20 Subject to advice I am going to be a little bolder on this section. It feels as though it is nearly all flat to ever so slightly downhill at times and again the wind, if any, should be behind us. I imagine that there will be a lot of support along here as people can also get out from the start and then back into town for the finish quite easily. Orwell Park is quite a narrow section and as you exit it there follows a short downhill section. Water and gel up here.

Mile 20-22.25ish Man up time!!! This is what we trained for. Nothing that cant be done but will have to concentrate hard. Short steep sections at Milltown and end of Roebuck ( 40 and 50 double strides will pile you over each respectively). The rest of this section is on a gentle uphill section most of the way. Its not so bad but its late in the race. I have tried to run this section a few times late in my LSR's and it worked fine. The Roebuck hill did require a bit of grit to be fair.

Mile 22.25 to Finish Relatively straight forward with the sweep of Fosters Ave in front of you. Watch the speed ramps on Nutley Lane... so easy to catch one with tired dragging legs. Again I think this is the give it whatever you have left section but I would be careful with the Stillorgan Road as it can be very exposed if its blowing from the west.

Singer wrote: »

I have a feeling that myself, yourself and FeenaM (I may have missed others...) are worrying about the same type of pace problems at the moment

I think on paper I've got some stuff indicating that sub-3:30 is a possibility, and it's really tempting (the number is sooooo round ), but blowing up at the end of the half has made me a lot more amenable to going for a slightly more comfortable time. I've been wrecking my head thinking through various scenarios about how I could start off relatively slow but if feeling good catch up to get in under 3:30... but they don't sound like too much fun and are a bit risky (then again, the course is supposed to be good for negative spl... ARGH NO STOP STUPID BRAIN).

So, my own goals (A goal is subject to tweaking):

A goal: < 3:40 Unless there's a hurricane or I feel wonky on the day, I'll start off with the 3:40 pacers. After 10 miles I'll see how things are going and maybe push on. After 20, we'll see what happens but I've got low expectations

B goal: < 4:00 Something went wrong - maybe blowing up, or I'm too sore or whatever. Still meet my original target going into all of this marathon nonsense :cool:

You're getting better all the time Singer. On a good day I don't reckon that you'd be all that far away from 3:30. I think that if I were you I'd start somewhere between the 3:30 and 3:40 pacers and just keep the 3:30 balloons in sight for a while. If it's a good day then you can let them come a bit closer to you, if it's a bad day you can let the 3:40 guys come up to you. Don't strain and just let it happen.

Somewhere between 10 and 13 miles is where you should first feel that you've done a bit of work, not much but it stops being a jog at around this point, this is where you start to focus a little more - still enjoying it though.

By 20 miles you'll be tired but still controlled as you start to enter into uncharted territory. Keep it steady at this point and you'll be passing runners left, right and centre. The effort levels required to maintain pace will start to rise, let that happen but don't try to push on until the last 4 miles when you can use the memory of the fast 4 you did at the end of one of your 20 mile runs to finish strong.

You'll notice I've not mentioned the pacers much. Pacers are great and fantastic and the boardsies doing DCM are some of the best but they're running at their own rhythm not yours. You should use them as a guide as to how well you're doing rather than how fast you should be running for at least the first 20 miles. In the meantime you can settle into your own rhythm and focus on your own performance. If you can do that I think that you'll run a great race.

Just back from physio and all good she said I have runners knee (yay I'm officially a runner !!!) from the 22 miler and related to impact. She worked on my Achilles and calves and knee and I got the all clear. She also saw me out running a few days ago and was checking my form while she was in traffic. She said it was probably the end of my run as I looked fatigued and was a bit hunched over she also said I flick my left leg out slightly when I run which is causing my Achilles probs she reckons. She doesn't want me to change anything before DCM but to watch my posture (sorry DG must have forgotten posture that day !). MurphD did I hear you're pacing 4.30 now ????? Yay !!!:) 4 miles easy done this morning cold out there had the gloves on.

Clearlier wrote: »

You'll notice I've not mentioned the pacers much. Pacers are great and fantastic and the boardsies doing DCM are some of the best but they're running at their own rhythm not yours. You should use them as a guide as to how well you're doing rather than how fast you should be running for at least the first 20 miles. In the meantime you can settle into your own rhythm and focus on your own performance. If you can do that I think that you'll run a great race.

Thanks for this Clearier. In the Athlone half and 3/4, I started with the pacers and they are fantastic but I wasn't comfortable so in each race after a mile or two I passed them but kept within ear shot of them and felt I was running more or less at the same pace as them but more comfortably but I couldn't put my finger on why this was. It was because we were running at our own rhythm

I have been looking at all posts pro & cons for time, have had good think
and do want to enjoy the day, but I think I have got over 95% of runs
Done, most have gone well, I think I have got stronger as training has
Moved on, so to nail my colours to the mast.

Would hope to start ahead of 4 hr pacers & all going well on the day push
on for 3.50 or there about. But will just see how I feel in morning of race.
I will not be to disappointed if does not happen for me on the day, but feel
Worth giving it a go.

Dubgal72 wrote: »

We'd love to hear from previous marathon novices' personal experiences.

Don't mind if I do

I had to trawl back the pages looking for DG's brilliant post that I seen people kept referring to. And what a brilliant post it was (as usual). I felt one thing was left out of the "controllables" list though....the refuelling strategy - which should be well rehearsed by now - but at the same time, it should be considered that this COULD become an "uncontrollable".

Last year, I took 4 gels but had the intention of taking 5. I nearly got sick after the 4th one and so decided to dump the rest (as I had spares too). Looking back on it now, I think the advantage you get from gels is at least a bit, if not mostly placebo effect - but any advantage, even if it is just placebo effect, is still an advantage worth having. If there's any physical boost from them, it doesn't last long (for me anyway)....and you'll be running (hopefully) 26.2 miles (really about 26.5) at MP which you will never have run at before and you’ll probably be taking more gels than you’ve taken on one run before and you have to consider that this may feel a bit sickey after 15 miles or whatever. That happened to me last year as I said - I had never felt sick taking gels in training but on the day, I suppose it was a combination of the heat and the pace and the worry of it all - it didn't go as perfectly.

Even if it does go perfectly, the main thing I learned last year as a novice was not to rely solely on gels anyway. You'll need something else - especially if it goes wrong with the gels - but IMO, also even if it doesn't. Try to have supporters at say roughly the one-third and 2-third points (say the 9 mile sign and the 18 mile sign). Have them hand you something. Know exactly where they'll be, what side of the road they will be on and know exactly what they will hand you - make sure they know all this too - and roughly what time you should be at the meeting point at. Even practice the hand-over strategy - don't stop or it may be a struggle to get going again. I noticed last year a good number of people had support from cyclists who would come up and cycle beside them for a short time and even taking a shopping list to get, to go away and come back with further up the course....because needs might change.

What they hand you is up to you but obviously it has to be something easy to consume while running MP and should be something you are used to consuming at MP by now. Nothing like a banana. Some stranger handed me a banana after I hit the wall after the 21 mile sign last year and I can't describe what that banana did for me. I was a new man. But I should have had at least one much earlier. So don't leave it too late in the race. And don’t forget the most important fuel of all – water. Early and often.

Another thing - when the going gets tough, as it will at some point, focus on the glory. The non-converted will be amazed and hugely impressed that you have finished a marathon at all. Visualize the back slaps. The finishers photo - even your glorious race report on this thread that night or the following day and how proud you'll be. The lot of it. And break the race down into smaller chunks or landmarks - and even smaller chunks when it gets hard.

By the way – I haven’t followed this thread that closely. Maybe it’s been mentioned – but I haven’t seen it. Is today “Toenail Tuesday”?

FBOT01 wrote: »

Sounds like a reasonable approach, G. You have had a very solid block of training so if you hold firm for the 20 mile warm-up on the day hopefully can push on over the last 10k and reap the benefits.:pac::pac:

Thanks M, Thought better to make decision, got caught in two minds
for half, went ok but could have paced better. hope to get into comfortable
9 min or so miles for first 10 - 12 and increase slightly from there.
Signed up for asics pace band with slower first 9 miles, so will see what happens.:D

Laois_Man wrote: »

Even if it does go perfectly, the main thing I learned last year as a novice was not to rely solely on gels anyway. You'll need something else - especially if it goes wrong with the gels - but IMO, also even if it doesn't. Try to have supporters at say roughly the one-third and 2-third points (say the 9 mile sign and the 18 mile sign). Have them hand you something. Know exactly where they'll be, what side of the road they will be on and know exactly what they will hand you - make sure they know all this too - and roughly what time you should be at the meeting point at. Even practice the hand-over strategy - don't stop or it may be a struggle to get going again. I noticed last year a good number of people had support from cyclists who would come up and cycle beside them for a short time and even taking a shopping list to get, to go away and come back with further up the course....because needs might change.

Thanks for this great info! Much appreciated!

Unfortunately for me, I have no one I can ask/rely on to give me stuff on the day. I'm stuck with what I can carry with me in me little belt pouch. While doing my LSRs I filled it with everything I thought I might need on the day, gels, Clif bar, tube of chap stick (my lips get SO dry when I'm running!) so I know how much I can bring with me.

If people are still handing out stuff by the time I get past, I'll keep an eye out for a banana!

aquinn wrote: »

You need to start a log and tell us how you went from 4:05 to 3:33, that's some progress.

The biggest change was the LSR's at 30 sec to a min slower than MP as opposed to MP!!!! - and a mid week 10 -12 miler

None of that matters. Do you think my Dad questioned who took the bottle of water? It's such a friendly and generous day out.

aquinn wrote: »

None of that matters. Do you think my Dad questioned who took the bottle of water? It's such a friendly and generous day out.

Sorry, I read your post wrong at first.

I see what you mean and it's good to know. Thanks again!