Are we dead as a country?

Knex* · 09-10-2015 09:59AM

seamus wrote: »

If the OP is anything to go by, all we have to do is figure out how to export exaggeration, self-loathing and hyperbole and the country would be set.

Add begrudgery to that, and we'd blow the Celtic Tiger out of the park.

jamesbere · 09-10-2015 10:07AM

gandalf wrote: »

Given Ireland has the second highest fertility rate in the EU (from CSO 2012 figures) I don't see any issue here.

Breeding like rabbits we are. We're mad for the sex

Playboy · 09-10-2015 10:20AM

I would think that birth rates are linked to an extent to home ownership and cost of living. Thinking logically if you can afford a home (excluding countries where renting is the norm and there is far more protection for renters) and a decent standard of living on one income then its easier to reproduce. If you are living in rented accommodation and both parents have to work then having 3, 4 or 5 kids just isn't really possible. Nursery fees are extortionate and the pressure on parents who are both working is just too much to make it a realistic aspiration.

I imagine a lot of immigrant families still have more traditional family roles where a woman raises children and the man works hence why they have more children. The crucial thing is though that many immigrants are prepared to put up with less 'material' comforts in order to have more children. There is a different set of priorities and immigrants don't tend be as immersed in consumer culture like we are.

seamus · 09-10-2015 10:26AM

Playboy wrote: »

I would think that birth rates are linked to an extent to home ownership and cost of living. Thinking logically if you can afford a home (excluding countries where renting is the norm and there is far more protection for renters) and a decent standard of living on one income then its easier to reproduce. If you are living in rented accommodation and both parents have to work then having 3, 4 or 5 kids just isn't really possible. Nursery fees are extortionate and the pressure on parents who are both working is just too much to make it a realistic aspiration.

I imagine a lot of immigrant families still have more traditional family roles where a woman raises children and the man works hence why they have more children. The crucial thing is though that many immigrants are prepared to put up with less 'material' comforts in order to have more children. There is a different set of priorities and immigrants don't tend be as immersed in consumer culture like we are.

You're overanalysing it here. Birth rates are inversely related to income levels, the world over. The richer people are, the less children they have.

It's not about people being "prepared" to put up less material things in order to have more children. Less educated people lack the skills and foresight to practice family planning and so just breed like rabbits and figure it out as they go.
People with more education recognise that their personal resources (i.e. people and time) are restricted and so practice family planning that suits those resources and/or their personal preferences.

Part of the problem here is that economic and political systems are traditionally structured in a way that discourages educated people from having children and encourages less educated people to have them. We need to restructure taxation and education in order to allow educated people to have more children at less cost and to discourage less educated people from having children through improved education and limiting the benefits of large families for those on low incomes.

AudreyHepburn · 09-10-2015 10:52AM

I don't know why people still persist in pretending that Ireland is on the edge of a meltdown and is akin to most Third World countries when the truth couldn't be farther from that.

Yes some are struggling, yes some are corrupt, yes some have had to leave in recent years to find work but like it or not we have a very high standard of living here and the economy is in fact on the way back up. There are plenty of jobs if people would stop limiting themselves and assuming that 'no jobs in my preferred sector' equals ' no jobs full stop'.

Our government isn't actually that bad but because they can't click their fingers and make our problems disappear just like that everyone has decided to hate them. It took 20 years to get into the Recession, we're not going to get better in 3 or 4 years. They were dealt a horrible hand and naturally have to make some tough decisions to fix the mess they were left with. I defy any one of the whingers and moaners to do better in the same circumstance.

Of course there is room for improvement....but that is true of every country.

Not to mention there are no wars, no terrorists/extremist groups, no extreme weather, no major disease epidemics etc.

A little less doom-and-gloom would go along way tbh. The OP is grossly exaggerating our situation.

Valetta · 09-10-2015 10:58AM

^^*
Whingers will always whinge.

Don't Chute! · 09-10-2015 11:03AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I don't know why people still persist in pretending that Ireland is on the edge of a meltdown and is akin to most Third World countries when the truth couldn't be farther from that.

Yes some are struggling, yes some are corrupt, yes some have had to leave in recent years to find work but like it or not we have a very high standard of living here and the economy is in fact on the way back up. There are plenty of jobs if people would stop limiting themselves and assuming that 'no jobs in my preferred sector' equals ' no jobs full stop'.

Our government isn't actually that bad but because they can't click their fingers and make our problems disappear just like that everyone has decided to hate them. It took 20 years to get into the Recession, we're not going to get better in 3 or 4 years. They were dealt a horrible hand and naturally have to make some tough decisions to fix the mess they were left with. I defy any one of the whingers and moaners to do better in the same circumstance.

Of course there is room for improvement....but that is true of every country.

Not to mention there are no wars, no terrorists/extremist groups, no extreme weather, no major disease epidemics etc.

A little less doom-and-gloom would go along way tbh. The OP is grossly exaggerating our situation.

This post ends the argument for me. Agree 100%

c_man · 09-10-2015 11:06AM

C'mon OP even leaving aside all the good arguments above, you have to admit that the country is in a much better state than a few years ago.

LordSutch · 09-10-2015 11:08AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Are we dead as a country?

If this question was asked anytime up until about 1985 I would have said YES.

This country is doing very well these days, and its not perfect, but its doing alright...

What a peculiar question to ask?

Tobyglen · 09-10-2015 11:09AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

When less than a half of the country can afford a house and raise 2 kids on their average middle of the road salary it would to me equate that the country is dead in that it can't regenerate the individuals that existed in new births? Why does the government insist on supporting a rental/builder class that is actually killing the future sustainable existance of the country?

Clueless post, go back to the 80s for a time when we struggled. Standard of living is vastly higher than at any other time in the state.(quality of housing, heating, food affordability). You would swear we were a 3rd world country.

Rental/Builder needs incentives to build otherwise housing market will stagnate, rental/builders getting crucified with taxes/charges so are getting out of the market.

I say this as a non renter/builder

DarkyHughes · 09-10-2015 11:53AM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I think that thread title sums up why I hate the concept of nationhood, making out that people are some sort of single entity under a fleg and behind borders. Russell Brand agrees with me.

In Ireland we live under multiple flegs. The Starry Plough , The Republicans Flag, The Scottish National Flag, The Northern Ireland Flag, The Four Provinces Flags, The Starry Plough version 2.0, The Ulsters Volunteers flag etc... .

You feel better now don't you?

sheesh · 09-10-2015 12:03PM

seamus wrote: »

If the OP is anything to go by, all we have to do is figure out how to export exaggeration, self-loathing and hyperbole and the country would be set.

we are exporting enough of that already! why just this week Hyperbole exports have shot up by 20,000%!

Duggy747 · 09-10-2015 12:51PM

I wrote to the UN over human rights abuse because the local shop didn't stock Tayto Smokey Bacon crisps.

We're not going to see the end of the decade at this rate!

Playboy · 09-10-2015 01:05PM

seamus wrote: »

You're overanalysing it here. Birth rates are inversely related to income levels, the world over. The richer people are, the less children they have.

It's not about people being "prepared" to put up less material things in order to have more children. Less educated people lack the skills and foresight to practice family planning and so just breed like rabbits and figure it out as they go.
People with more education recognise that their personal resources (i.e. people and time) are restricted and so practice family planning that suits those resources and/or their personal preferences.

Part of the problem here is that economic and political systems are traditionally structured in a way that discourages educated people from having children and encourages less educated people to have them. We need to restructure taxation and education in order to allow educated people to have more children at less cost and to discourage less educated people from having children through improved education and limiting the benefits of large families for those on low incomes.

I'm aware of the relationship between income and birth rates but isn't that a very simplistic way of looking at things. Why does more income mean less children? You mention family planning and recognition of limited resources and I don't disagree. My own experience is that people with middle class incomes would prefer to have more children but more children = bigger house, bigger car, more nursery fees, more challenging to continue with two working parents and maintain the same standard of living etc. To an extent middle class people sacrifice a bigger family in order that they can avoid the pressures I describe above and to an extent that's the decision that I'm personally facing. Giving up the comforts of my life for another child doesnt really seem worth it but if you speak to people from less developed countries/economies children are king. They are prepared to sacrifice more in order to have more and prepared to make do with less. I dont think we can just put it down to poor family planning. I think we are doing low income/immigrant a family a disservice when we describe them as just breeding without any forethought.

Robsweezie · 09-10-2015 01:15PM

We're with o leary in his grave

diomed · 09-10-2015 01:17PM

Why do you end a statement with a question mark?
Have you ever been in a sit-down protest on O'Connell Bridge?

DanielODonnell · 09-10-2015 01:54PM

arayess wrote: »

brand still believes in a community which is a nation of sorts so not sure the point ? you just hate flags ? ok.

brand is entertaining but apart from his robin hood mantra of giving the poor everything and sticking to fingers up to David Cameron types he doesn't really have in depth plans

But sorry ,
I'm too hungover to argue with you but you are wrong.

Last time I listened to Brand he was making fun of Canadian prime minister who was standing behind his fleg and making fun of phrases like "we as a nation"

You can feel free to keep believing that strangers down the road from you are your brethren if you wish.

DanielODonnell · 09-10-2015 01:55PM

DarkyHughes wrote: »

In Ireland we live under multiple flegs. The Starry Plough , The Republicans Flag, The Scottish National Flag, The Northern Ireland Flag, The Four Provinces Flags, The Starry Plough version 2.0, The Ulsters Volunteers flag etc... .

You feel better now don't you?

There is no Northern Ireland flag, maybe you are referring to the patricks saltire.

topper75 · 09-10-2015 02:06PM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Eh, migration is one of the oldest 'ways of the world'.

Migration into heavily populated areas isn't one of the oldest ways of the world. In fact, one could argue that it only began in the late 20th century.

The migration you are thinking of was into empty undeveloped lands. Which is fine. But that game is over.

09-10-2015 03:22PM

AngryHippie wrote: »

Ireland is a tough place to live

Let me guess.. You had to skip a few luxuries to tax the car, yea? Missed the pints with the lads? :rolleyes:

bnt · 09-10-2015 05:01PM

If I look around the world, at all the wars, overpopulation, droughts & famines, and general stupidity and lack of foresight, I honestly think that Ireland is better-placed than most to withstand what's coming. The USA isn't a viable option any more - it's being hollowed out from the inside.

Herb Powell · 09-10-2015 05:36PM

bnt wrote: »

If I look around the world, at all the wars, overpopulation, droughts & famines, and general stupidity and lack of foresight, I honestly think that Ireland is better-placed than most to withstand what's coming. The USA isn't a viable option any more - it's being hollowed out from the inside.

What is coming?

riclad · 09-10-2015 08:28PM

IT would be more accurate to say house,s may be too expensive in dublin,cork, galway.You can buy a house in rural area,s for 50k.
We need a national broadband plan for rural area.s .
WE need to build 50 thousand homes for social housing.
Maybe cancel housing levys for five years .
Irish governments waste alot of money,one example
million,s spent on the seanad.
Was,t the seanad supposed to be abolished .
Do we need a metro link to dublin airport.
Theres loads of bus,s that go there .
And a good taxi service.
Do td,s ,senators need 2 pensions ?
Theres councils ,charitys, various diiferent agencys dealing with housing .
we need someone to make a real housing policy ,
Say we need 20 k plus houses per year ,
how do we make it happen.
Give landlords 100 per cent tax relief on loans for rental housing.
The revenue taxes landlord s who make no profit .
IN the 60,s 70,s 1000,s of house,s were built in this country .
Can the government do these things in an organised logical fashion.
We need a 5 -10 year housing plan.
Take 1 example ,it takes 10 years to build a hospital in ireland.
WE are in a housing crisis .
The next intel, paypal will not come here .
Rents are too high ,
and there is not enough rental units for even the people who
work full time .
Have irish governments lost the will to do long term planning ?
WE are not dead,
but the government has major problems to tackle ?
The usa has problems with gun control and corruption,
big corporations are writing the laws and evading paying tax.
Apart from the civil service,unions hardly exist in the us.

Tony EH · 09-10-2015 08:37PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I dunno. We have higher home ownership rates than Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the UK or Germany, to name but a few, so I would have thought that not being able to afford to buy a home is not really a meaningful measure of national not-deadness.

That's only because people who are desperate to have a home are hocking themselves in debt until they're 65 (or dead). Some are even passing the debt onto their kids.

There's no realistic rental options in Ireland. Above a certain age and especially when children are involved, renting simply isn't a good thing. 12 month leases, landlords raising rent to stupid levels on a whim and everything stacked in the landlords favour. One only rents because of desperation, not by choice.

In Europe, renting all of your life IS an option, because those countries are generally run better than our little side show, with much better lease terms, proper rent control and a more favourable situation for the tenants. There are many families in Europe that could buy a house if they so wished, but actually choose to rent.

Pherekydes · 09-10-2015 11:47PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

What is coming?

The Zombie apocalypse.

Aidric · 09-10-2015 11:50PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I dunno. We have higher home ownership rates than Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the UK or Germany, to name but a few, so I would have thought that not being able to afford to buy a home is not really a meaningful measure of national not-deadness.

Indeed. This notion of being mortgaged up to the tits is a peculiar one.

Eugene Norman · 09-10-2015 11:56PM

In fact the continental house ownership rate is increasing while Ireland and Britain are decreasing. France overtook the UK recently at 70%. The reason is simple -- they build 400k houses a year compared to Britains 150 k. That's not all market housing either but most is.

Prices are high here because we keep them high. It's a political decision.

Eugene Norman · 10-10-2015 12:00AM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Last time I listened to Brand he was making fun of Canadian prime minister who was standing behind his fleg and making fun of phrases like "we as a nation"

You can feel free to keep believing that strangers down the road from you are your brethren if you wish.

Of course nations exist. And of course they are based on real cultural similarities

Eugene Norman · 10-10-2015 12:27AM

We need to explode the myth that "Anglo Saxon democracies" have high house ownership rates.

Here's a low which shows the uk way down the list relative to other European / OECD countries. Ireland isn't in there but we are heading lower and having the worst of both worlds. Relatively low ownership and no protection of renters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

booooring! · 10-10-2015 12:49AM

We have it ****in easy here. Have a baby get a house. Heres some extra money for having it. What's better than that?

Go on a trip to India and stay in the slums. See how you like it.

Are we dead as a country?

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