Are we dead as a country?

Atlantic Dawn

When less than a half of the country can afford a house and raise 2 kids on their average middle of the road salary it would to me equate that the country is dead in that it can't regenerate the individuals that existed in new births? Why does the government insist on supporting a rental/builder class that is actually killing the future sustainable existance of the country?

endacl

Melodrama is alive and kicking anyway...

jamesbere

We just beat germany, we're alive and kicking i'd say.

puckmymuskie

Whinge whinge ****in whinge as Chopper Reed might say

DanielODonnell

I think that thread title sums up why I hate the concept of nationhood, making out that people are some sort of single entity under a fleg and behind borders. Russell Brand agrees with me.

whatdoicare

Sure tis grand, Edna is letting in loads of new people from dodgy countries and will pay for them to pop out loads of childer. In exactly 18 years from now theres going to be a huge campaign with free training and incentives for those now young adults to take up training for working in pallative care/care of the elderly.

Its like ordering take out but with workers.

Of course, none of them will take it up and will be getting the fup out of here in their droves.

So our eedjit gubberment will just ship some more people in and rinse and repeat.

Peregrinus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

When less than a half of the country can afford a house and raise 2 kids on their average middle of the road salary it would to me equate that the country is dead in that it can't regenerate the individuals that existed in new births? Why does the government insist on supporting a rental/builder class that is actually killing the future sustainable existance of the country?

I dunno. We have higher home ownership rates than Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the UK or Germany, to name but a few, so I would have thought that not being able to afford to buy a home is not really a meaningful measure of national not-deadness.

AngryHippie

whatdoicare wrote: »

So our eedjit gubberment will just ship some more people in and rinse and repeat.

Thats mass migration baby !

It's the new way of the world. Trick is to get up, get a degree or a good trade under your arse and gtfo.

Ask not what you can do for your country because it can do SFA for you.
(unless you are an elected official, in which case enjoy the free lunches while they last and manage your own pension in an offshore haven for the love of god)

It's not just the Irish gooberment either. It's pretty much the same everywhere.

Look after no. 1.

Nobody wants to hear your nationalist whinging. It's an illusion, and the sooner you wise up to that, the better for you. Ireland is a tough place to live, but I suppose in one way or another, it always was.

4zn76tysfajdxp

AngryHippie wrote: »

Ireland is a tough place to live

lol

Bulbous Salutation

AngryHippie wrote: »

Ireland is a tough place to live, but I suppose in one way or another, it always was.

You smoking something?

Badly Drunk Boy

AngryHippie wrote: »

Thats mass migration baby !

It's the new way of the world.

Eh, migration is one of the oldest 'ways of the world'.

Electric Sheep

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

When less than a half of the country can afford a house and raise 2 kids on their average middle of the road salary it would to me equate that the country is dead in that it can't regenerate the individuals that existed in new births? Why does the government insist on supporting a rental/builder class that is actually ailling the future sustainable existance of the country?

Grow up FFS, life is not about owning a house.

endacl

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I think that thread title sums up why I hate the concept of nationhood, making out that people are some sort of single entity under a fleg and behind borders. Russell Brand agrees with me.

Well, if bad country singers and idiots agree...

Day Lewin

Aw it's all broken. Back to the emigration boats. Let's all go to Syria - I hear they have plenty of vacancies.

Azalea

whatdoicare wrote: »

Sure tis grand, Edna is letting in loads of new people from dodgy countries and will pay for them to pop out loads of childer. In exactly 18 years from now theres going to be a huge campaign with free training and incentives for those now young adults to take up training for working in pallative care/care of the elderly.

Its like ordering take out but with workers.

Of course, none of them will take it up and will be getting the fup out of here in their droves.

So our eedjit gubberment will just ship some more people in and rinse and repeat.

Wha?

arayess

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I think that thread title sums up why I hate the concept of nationhood, making out that people are some sort of single entity under a fleg and behind borders. Russell Brand agrees with me.

brand still believes in a community which is a nation of sorts so not sure the point ? you just hate flags ? ok.

brand is entertaining but apart from his robin hood mantra of giving the poor everything and sticking to fingers up to David Cameron types he doesn't really have in depth plans

But sorry ,
I'm too hungover to argue with you but you are wrong.

jimgoose

There's a lot wrong with and in this little bass-ackward vegetable patch, but I'd have to say that anyone who remembers the '80s would have to admit it's certainly struggling for life now as opposed to clinically dead per sé. Back then if the country was an oul' dag you'd shoot it out of kindness. :pac:

Pherekydes

Did anyone mention white genocide yet?

gandalf

Given Ireland has the second highest fertility rate in the EU (from CSO 2012 figures) I don't see any issue here.

Wibbs

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Russell Brand agrees

Those words right there are an incredibly precise bullshít detector.

BoJack Horseman

If an OP could be a political pamphlet, it would be this.

Don't Chute!

AngryHippie wrote: »

Thats mass migration baby !

It's the new way of the world. Trick is to get up, get a degree or a good trade under your arse and gtfo.

Ask not what you can do for your country because it can do SFA for you.
(unless you are an elected official, in which case enjoy the free lunches while they last and manage your own pension in an offshore haven for the love of god)

It's not just the Irish gooberment either. It's pretty much the same everywhere.

Look after no. 1.

Nobody wants to hear your nationalist whinging. It's an illusion, and the sooner you wise up to that, the better for you. Ireland is a tough place to live, but I suppose in one way or another, it always was.

First you tell us to get a degree or a trade and gtfo and then you tell us it's the same in every other country. Why should we leave then? People really need to start copping themselves on. Is this country dead? Ffs!

The Corinthian

gandalf wrote: »

Given Ireland has the second highest fertility rate in the EU (from CSO 2012 figures) I don't see any issue here.

Well, that's not necessarily a good thing as EU fertility rates are overall quite low on a global scale.

Ireland has a birth rate of 2.1 children per woman. Worldwide the the total fertility rate at replacement was 2.33 children per woman, in 2003, and Ireland is below this - although being a wealthy country with a high life expectancy and low infant mortality rate, the Irish total fertility rate at replacement is likely to be much lower (but naturally would still have to be over 2).

Note also that 23% of births are by foreign mothers, so it is likely that the replacement rate of non-naturalized Irish is, as a result, not being met. Even without that, with 17.5% of non-naturalized Irish having emigrated, we're almost certain not to maintain the present population without replenishing it through immigration.

Overall, Ireland is in this regard in a much healthier state than most other EU, or even developed, countries, but this does not equate necessarily to being in a healthy state, so I'd think twice before using the rest of the EU as a measuring stick.

gandalf

Yes but we can't blame this on the fact the Gubberment aren't providing cheap/free/affordable housing (delete as appropiate) though as per the OP's train of thought The Corinthian can we

Also given the nature of workforce mobility throughout the EU just because someone is born in Ireland doesn't naturally equate to them remaining in that country for part or all of their adult life. You're a good example of that.

My son is half French, whilst we have currently no plans to move outside Ireland he very well could when he is an adult head to France.

The Corinthian

gandalf wrote: »

Yes but we can't blame this on the fact the Gubberment aren't providing cheap/free/affordable housing (delete as appropiate) though as per the OP's train of thought The Corinthian can we

Didn't even touch that point - the EU comparison was plenty to keep my pedantry going

Also given the nature of workforce mobility throughout the EU just because someone is born in Ireland doesn't naturally equate to them remaining in that country for part or all of their adult life. You're a good example of that.

I'm not; for a start I wasn't born in Ireland

gandalf

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm not; for a start I wasn't born in Ireland

Whoops my bad

But you have such lovely dulcet Irish tones :P

The Corinthian

gandalf wrote: »

But you have such lovely dulcet Irish tones :P

I'm glad someone notices. Here they all presume I'm English. Bizarrely it's the English that are most likely to presume this.

gandalf

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm glad someone notices. Here they all presume I'm English. Bizarrely it's the English that are most likely to presume this.

Feck it a lot of people think I am American!!

The Corinthian

gandalf wrote: »

Feck it a lot of people think I am American!!

That'll be your weight

Knex*

AngryHippie wrote: »

Ireland is a tough place to live, but I suppose in one way or another, it always was.

No, it most certainly is not. Not when you look at it from a global perspective, anyway, that's for sure.

We are immensely privileged to be born in this country. It instantly puts you in the top 15%, if not higher, in terms of wealth, education, living standards, etc.

Perspective is completely lost if you think Ireland is a tough place to live.

On top of that, we don't even have things like dangerous animals or weather to worry about, for God sake!

seamus

If the OP is anything to go by, all we have to do is figure out how to export exaggeration, self-loathing and hyperbole and the country would be set.

Knex*

seamus wrote: »

If the OP is anything to go by, all we have to do is figure out how to export exaggeration, self-loathing and hyperbole and the country would be set.

Add begrudgery to that, and we'd blow the Celtic Tiger out of the park.

jamesbere

gandalf wrote: »

Given Ireland has the second highest fertility rate in the EU (from CSO 2012 figures) I don't see any issue here.

Breeding like rabbits we are. We're mad for the sex

Playboy

I would think that birth rates are linked to an extent to home ownership and cost of living. Thinking logically if you can afford a home (excluding countries where renting is the norm and there is far more protection for renters) and a decent standard of living on one income then its easier to reproduce. If you are living in rented accommodation and both parents have to work then having 3, 4 or 5 kids just isn't really possible. Nursery fees are extortionate and the pressure on parents who are both working is just too much to make it a realistic aspiration.

I imagine a lot of immigrant families still have more traditional family roles where a woman raises children and the man works hence why they have more children. The crucial thing is though that many immigrants are prepared to put up with less 'material' comforts in order to have more children. There is a different set of priorities and immigrants don't tend be as immersed in consumer culture like we are.

seamus

Playboy wrote: »

I would think that birth rates are linked to an extent to home ownership and cost of living. Thinking logically if you can afford a home (excluding countries where renting is the norm and there is far more protection for renters) and a decent standard of living on one income then its easier to reproduce. If you are living in rented accommodation and both parents have to work then having 3, 4 or 5 kids just isn't really possible. Nursery fees are extortionate and the pressure on parents who are both working is just too much to make it a realistic aspiration.

I imagine a lot of immigrant families still have more traditional family roles where a woman raises children and the man works hence why they have more children. The crucial thing is though that many immigrants are prepared to put up with less 'material' comforts in order to have more children. There is a different set of priorities and immigrants don't tend be as immersed in consumer culture like we are.

You're overanalysing it here. Birth rates are inversely related to income levels, the world over. The richer people are, the less children they have.

It's not about people being "prepared" to put up less material things in order to have more children. Less educated people lack the skills and foresight to practice family planning and so just breed like rabbits and figure it out as they go.
People with more education recognise that their personal resources (i.e. people and time) are restricted and so practice family planning that suits those resources and/or their personal preferences.

Part of the problem here is that economic and political systems are traditionally structured in a way that discourages educated people from having children and encourages less educated people to have them. We need to restructure taxation and education in order to allow educated people to have more children at less cost and to discourage less educated people from having children through improved education and limiting the benefits of large families for those on low incomes.

AudreyHepburn

I don't know why people still persist in pretending that Ireland is on the edge of a meltdown and is akin to most Third World countries when the truth couldn't be farther from that.

Yes some are struggling, yes some are corrupt, yes some have had to leave in recent years to find work but like it or not we have a very high standard of living here and the economy is in fact on the way back up. There are plenty of jobs if people would stop limiting themselves and assuming that 'no jobs in my preferred sector' equals ' no jobs full stop'.

Our government isn't actually that bad but because they can't click their fingers and make our problems disappear just like that everyone has decided to hate them. It took 20 years to get into the Recession, we're not going to get better in 3 or 4 years. They were dealt a horrible hand and naturally have to make some tough decisions to fix the mess they were left with. I defy any one of the whingers and moaners to do better in the same circumstance.

Of course there is room for improvement....but that is true of every country.

Not to mention there are no wars, no terrorists/extremist groups, no extreme weather, no major disease epidemics etc.

A little less doom-and-gloom would go along way tbh. The OP is grossly exaggerating our situation.

Valetta

^^*
Whingers will always whinge.

Don't Chute!

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I don't know why people still persist in pretending that Ireland is on the edge of a meltdown and is akin to most Third World countries when the truth couldn't be farther from that.

Yes some are struggling, yes some are corrupt, yes some have had to leave in recent years to find work but like it or not we have a very high standard of living here and the economy is in fact on the way back up. There are plenty of jobs if people would stop limiting themselves and assuming that 'no jobs in my preferred sector' equals ' no jobs full stop'.

Our government isn't actually that bad but because they can't click their fingers and make our problems disappear just like that everyone has decided to hate them. It took 20 years to get into the Recession, we're not going to get better in 3 or 4 years. They were dealt a horrible hand and naturally have to make some tough decisions to fix the mess they were left with. I defy any one of the whingers and moaners to do better in the same circumstance.

Of course there is room for improvement....but that is true of every country.

Not to mention there are no wars, no terrorists/extremist groups, no extreme weather, no major disease epidemics etc.

A little less doom-and-gloom would go along way tbh. The OP is grossly exaggerating our situation.

This post ends the argument for me. Agree 100%

c_man

C'mon OP even leaving aside all the good arguments above, you have to admit that the country is in a much better state than a few years ago.

LordSutch

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Are we dead as a country?

If this question was asked anytime up until about 1985 I would have said YES.

This country is doing very well these days, and its not perfect, but its doing alright...

What a peculiar question to ask?

Tobyglen

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

When less than a half of the country can afford a house and raise 2 kids on their average middle of the road salary it would to me equate that the country is dead in that it can't regenerate the individuals that existed in new births? Why does the government insist on supporting a rental/builder class that is actually killing the future sustainable existance of the country?

Clueless post, go back to the 80s for a time when we struggled. Standard of living is vastly higher than at any other time in the state.(quality of housing, heating, food affordability). You would swear we were a 3rd world country.

Rental/Builder needs incentives to build otherwise housing market will stagnate, rental/builders getting crucified with taxes/charges so are getting out of the market.

I say this as a non renter/builder

DarkyHughes

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I think that thread title sums up why I hate the concept of nationhood, making out that people are some sort of single entity under a fleg and behind borders. Russell Brand agrees with me.

In Ireland we live under multiple flegs. The Starry Plough , The Republicans Flag, The Scottish National Flag, The Northern Ireland Flag, The Four Provinces Flags, The Starry Plough version 2.0, The Ulsters Volunteers flag etc... .

You feel better now don't you?

sheesh

seamus wrote: »

If the OP is anything to go by, all we have to do is figure out how to export exaggeration, self-loathing and hyperbole and the country would be set.

we are exporting enough of that already! why just this week Hyperbole exports have shot up by 20,000%!

Duggy747

I wrote to the UN over human rights abuse because the local shop didn't stock Tayto Smokey Bacon crisps.

We're not going to see the end of the decade at this rate!

Playboy

seamus wrote: »

You're overanalysing it here. Birth rates are inversely related to income levels, the world over. The richer people are, the less children they have.

It's not about people being "prepared" to put up less material things in order to have more children. Less educated people lack the skills and foresight to practice family planning and so just breed like rabbits and figure it out as they go.
People with more education recognise that their personal resources (i.e. people and time) are restricted and so practice family planning that suits those resources and/or their personal preferences.

Part of the problem here is that economic and political systems are traditionally structured in a way that discourages educated people from having children and encourages less educated people to have them. We need to restructure taxation and education in order to allow educated people to have more children at less cost and to discourage less educated people from having children through improved education and limiting the benefits of large families for those on low incomes.

I'm aware of the relationship between income and birth rates but isn't that a very simplistic way of looking at things. Why does more income mean less children? You mention family planning and recognition of limited resources and I don't disagree. My own experience is that people with middle class incomes would prefer to have more children but more children = bigger house, bigger car, more nursery fees, more challenging to continue with two working parents and maintain the same standard of living etc. To an extent middle class people sacrifice a bigger family in order that they can avoid the pressures I describe above and to an extent that's the decision that I'm personally facing. Giving up the comforts of my life for another child doesnt really seem worth it but if you speak to people from less developed countries/economies children are king. They are prepared to sacrifice more in order to have more and prepared to make do with less. I dont think we can just put it down to poor family planning. I think we are doing low income/immigrant a family a disservice when we describe them as just breeding without any forethought.

Robsweezie

We're with o leary in his grave

diomed

Why do you end a statement with a question mark?
Have you ever been in a sit-down protest on O'Connell Bridge?

DanielODonnell

arayess wrote: »

brand still believes in a community which is a nation of sorts so not sure the point ? you just hate flags ? ok.

brand is entertaining but apart from his robin hood mantra of giving the poor everything and sticking to fingers up to David Cameron types he doesn't really have in depth plans

But sorry ,
I'm too hungover to argue with you but you are wrong.

Last time I listened to Brand he was making fun of Canadian prime minister who was standing behind his fleg and making fun of phrases like "we as a nation"

You can feel free to keep believing that strangers down the road from you are your brethren if you wish.

DanielODonnell

DarkyHughes wrote: »

In Ireland we live under multiple flegs. The Starry Plough , The Republicans Flag, The Scottish National Flag, The Northern Ireland Flag, The Four Provinces Flags, The Starry Plough version 2.0, The Ulsters Volunteers flag etc... .

You feel better now don't you?

There is no Northern Ireland flag, maybe you are referring to the patricks saltire.

topper75

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Eh, migration is one of the oldest 'ways of the world'.

Migration into heavily populated areas isn't one of the oldest ways of the world. In fact, one could argue that it only began in the late 20th century.

The migration you are thinking of was into empty undeveloped lands. Which is fine. But that game is over.

AngryHippie

AngryHippie wrote: »

Ireland is a tough place to live

Let me guess.. You had to skip a few luxuries to tax the car, yea? Missed the pints with the lads? :rolleyes: