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Wind farms - ugly truths

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Comments

  • #812
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,539 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Unfortunatly this article refers to wholesale prices only
    Pretty much standard operating practice in some quarters, unfortunately.
    The real costs of wind on a grid shows up in the retail price of power which factors in constraint payments,subsidies,back up power, extra pylon builds and maintainance costs etc. associated with wind power. That is why the likes of Germany and Denmark have the highest retail energy prices in the EU as pointed out many times on this thread.
    Yes. Germany and Denmark have not just the highest electricity prices in the EU, but among the most expensive (both are in the Top 10) in the entire world. That is, it's cheaper to buy a kw/h retail in some tiny remote Pacific island countries - like Kiribati - than to do so in Germany or Denmark. There is only one reason for this.

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  • #813
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Wind energy being cheap is kind of irelevant-it's how much a wind oriented system costs to run...
    It’s about the optimal system composition, from the perspective of maximising value for money, whilst minimising emissions.


  • #814
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The real costs of wind on a grid shows up in the retail price of power which factors in constraint payments,subsidies,back up power, extra pylon builds and maintainance costs etc. associated with wind power. That is why the likes of Germany and Denmark have the highest retail energy prices in the EU as pointed out many times on this thread.
    It’s also been pointed out that this represents a reasonable investment.
    SeanW wrote: »
    Germany and Denmark have not just the highest electricity prices in the EU, but among the most expensive (both are in the Top 10) in the entire world. That is, it's cheaper to buy a kw/h retail in some tiny remote Pacific island countries - like Kiribati - than to do so in Germany or Denmark. There is only one reason for this.
    Massive infrastructural investment? Care to demonstrate that this investment is a poor one?


  • #815
    fclauson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    when you have to pay the highest electrical prices in Europe and the cost of carbon offset could be more easily met elsewhere then yes its a rubbish investment

    wind is not the be all and end all

    when wind fails and you have no other renewable you have to burn carbon

    364994.png

    364993.png


  • #816
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    fclauson wrote: »
    wind is not the be all and end all

    when wind fails and you have no other renewable you have to burn carbon
    Here's the thing, since peak demand is more than twice the minimum demand you'll have a lot of idle generators most of the time.

    Using Nuclear , Wind and Solar just changes when those generators are idle.

    If you use nuclear you have to burn carbon at daily peak demand instead of when it's not windy. And the capital costs of nuclear dwarf those of wind or fossil fuel.


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  • #817
    fclauson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    So the answer

    energy demand reduction

    energy load balancing (remove the 6pm spike)

    smart meters

    have electricity "sales" when there is too much available
    have electricity "rationing" when there is high demand

    energy storage in the home e.g.
    • heat home water off peak
    • run HP driven under floor off peak
    • storage heaters (not ideal)
    • charge phones/laptops etc off peak)
    • use slow cookers (i.e. move 6pm spike)
    so many ways to move that spike

    If we can load spread we reduce the need to ramping reserve


  • #818
    signinlate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭signinlate


    fclauson wrote: »

    have electricity "rationing" when there is high demand


    So in cold midwinter when a high pressure sits over the country and demand is at its highest your solution is to ration electricity:confused: .

    Is that not exactly the reason we are told that wind won't work?


  • #819
    fclauson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    signinlate wrote: »
    So in cold midwinter when a high pressure sits over the country and demand is at its highest your solution is to ration electricity:confused: .

    Is that not exactly the reason we are told that wind won't work?

    You miss my point - spreading demand is cheaper than any form of new wind, nuclear, coal or gas

    my comment on rationing was about during the peak periods of the day while making it cheaper at low times - spread the load to let plant run consistently


  • #820
    toptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭toptom


    Horrible rotten intrusive things, Tipperary is blighted with them now.


  • #821
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    fclauson wrote: »
    You miss my point - spreading demand is cheaper than any form of new wind, nuclear, coal or gas

    my comment on rationing was about during the peak periods of the day while making it cheaper at low times - spread the load to let plant run consistently

    I haven't checked out in ages, but as far as I know, there is no option for a regular customer to get reduced rates at night, no ? only farmers !
    It's an awful shame really.
    People in France often tailor their consumption on the rates : my Mum like countless others sticks on the dishwasher and washing machines at night (easier now even with the programming !).

    I'd love to be able to do that, it'd be no hassle, and I'd save a few bobs. In fact, most of my washes happen at night already, but even if the cheaper rate was pushed at say, midnight or 1 am, I reckon lots of people would plan accordingly and adjust their electricity use.


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  • #822
    fclauson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    I haven't checked out in ages, but as far as I know, there is no option for a regular customer to get reduced rates at night, no ? only farmers !
    ..

    Night rate is available - I use it to run my HP and washer etc

    I do my bit for load spreading where I can !!


  • #823
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    toptom wrote: »
    Horrible rotten intrusive things, Tipperary is blighted with them now.

    If you study economic history. You will see that the world entered a deep recession in the 1970s, when OPEC tripled the price of oil over night. The world decided we couldnt be held ransom to a group of a few countries. So American increased production, we made our economies more energy efficient.

    Imagine in 2015, Putin gets sick of the West destroying his economy and hits back by turning off the Gas to Europe. What happens then? Most homes in Ireland are heated by Gas. A lot of our Electricity is generated from Gas. Our economy will be destroyed.

    When are literally in darkness and the cold, as there is no Gas for power generation. Will we be thinking "God, Im so glad we protected the landscape for the handful of people who choose to live in one off housing, while the rest of the country is in darkness". Honestly I dont think so.

    Germany is very eco friendly. But a lot of their desire for renewables is simply to ensure Putin literally doesnt have the power to turn off the lights.


  • #824
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Here's the thing, since peak demand is more than twice the minimum demand you'll have a lot of idle generators most of the time.

    Using Nuclear , Wind and Solar just changes when those generators are idle.

    If you use nuclear you have to burn carbon at daily peak demand instead of when it's not windy. And the capital costs of nuclear dwarf those of wind or fossil fuel.

    I don't doubt that- it's just when an article is quoted saying wind energy is now the electricity -
    Wind (or solar) can't power the grid in isolation -it needs back up (as would nuclear ) .As for all power generation it's the entire system cost -
    To be fair the US system may work differently -as to who and how companies get paid to generate power- if a plant is inefficient or inflexible then yeah it should be left go - but if the grid needs that plant to be available then it'll have to be pay for it.

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #825
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,945 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    djpbarry wrote: »
    It’s also been pointed out that this represents a reasonable investment.
    Massive infrastructural investment? Care to demonstrate that this investment is a poor one?

    It certainly benefits wind developers. You haven't posted anything here that suggests it has much benefit for anyone else. How does higher energy bills and windfarm/pylon sprawl across sensitive landscapes benefit a country??


  • #826
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,945 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    If you study economic history. You will see that the world entered a deep recession in the 1970s, when OPEC tripled the price of oil over night. The world decided we couldnt be held ransom to a group of a few countries. So American increased production, we made our economies more energy efficient.

    Imagine in 2015, Putin gets sick of the West destroying his economy and hits back by turning off the Gas to Europe. What happens then? Most homes in Ireland are heated by Gas. A lot of our Electricity is generated from Gas. Our economy will be destroyed.

    When are literally in darkness and the cold, as there is no Gas for power generation. Will we be thinking "God, Im so glad we protected the landscape for the handful of people who choose to live in one off housing, while the rest of the country is in darkness". Honestly I dont think so.

    Germany is very eco friendly. But a lot of their desire for renewables is simply to ensure Putin literally doesnt have the power to turn off the lights.

    Even if your rather extreme scenario came about wind/solar would be pretty useless in any case as it cannot be used as a base power source - so on the coldest nights of the winter under HP conditions you can have as many windfarms as you like but little power entering the grid(recent nights being a prime example). Btw Germany still depends on coal/gas despite their massive spend on wind which still only provides barely a tenth of their power demands. In any case Ireland does not use Russian Gas and many European countries are already building LPG terminals to take advantage of the world wide glut of cheap gas outside of Russia that will be with us for many decades to come as more and more contries(like the US) become self sufficient in gas thanks to new technologies


    PS: I can't see it in Russia's interest to cut off gas supplies to paying customers in any case given how much their economy depends on it. It would hurt their economy far more than anyone elses


  • #827
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    fclauson wrote: »
    Night rate is available - I use it to run my HP and washer etc

    I do my bit for load spreading where I can !!

    Got to get back on to them so !

    edit : hhmmm... there's a very high rural standing charge per year, it's going to take a bit of digging in to ensure it is actually cost worthy ! I'll be doing my share of off loading too if it is. (I'm mostly doing it now anyway !)


  • #828
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    If you study economic history. You will see that the world entered a deep recession in the 1970s, when OPEC tripled the price of oil over night. The world decided we couldnt be held ransom to a group of a few countries. So American increased production, we made our economies more energy efficient
    Imagine in 2015, Putin gets sick of the West destroying his economy and hits back by turning off the Gas to Europe. What happens then? Most homes in Ireland are heated by Gas. A lot of our Electricity is generated from Gas. Our economy will be destroyed.


    When are literally in darkness and the cold, as there is no Gas for power generation. Will we be thinking "God, Im so glad we protected the landscape for the handful of people who choose to live in one off housing, while the rest of the country is in darkness". Honestly I dont think so.


    Germany is very eco friendly. But a lot of their desire for renewables is simply to ensure Putin literally doesnt have the power to turn off the lights.

    We'd still be screwed because currently we have no gas storage -and no smart meters
    So if for some reason the gas goes off - and the wind ain't blowing hard we're screwed - admittedly the modern gas turbines can run on diesel for a couple of weeks - if they have to - but electricity use would go through the roof as most peoples heating and cooking is gas - - even if the corrib field is flat out there wouldn't be near enough -
    And if it's Putin he won't pull the plug until there's a Europe wide freeze and still weather across much if Europe /

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #829
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    In any case Ireland does not use Russian Gas and many European countries are already building LPG terminals to take advantage of the world wide glut of cheap gas outside of Russia that will be with us for many decades to come as more and more contries(like the US) become self sufficient in gas thanks to new technologies


    PS: I can't see it in Russia's interest to cut off gas supplies to paying customers in any case given how much their economy depends on it. It would hurt their economy far more than anyone elses

    Why does our Gas come from? It comes from the UK, which is piped from the European pipelines from Russia. The UK lies on imports of Gas. That will take decades though. The Russia-Ukraine situation has significantly gotten worse in the last 18 months.

    Why not? Wars arent fought on the battle field. Its though embargoes and economic sanctions. The EU has crippled the Russian economy already this year. What if Russia decided to punish the EU by cutting off the Gas? Europe cant survive without Russian Gas. Trade war benefit no one and countries still engage in them anyway

    No one expect OPEC to triple prices over night and they did.


  • #830
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,945 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    Why does our Gas come from? It comes from the UK, which is piped from the European pipelines from Russia. The UK lies on imports of Gas. That will take decades though. The Russia-Ukraine situation has significantly gotten worse in the last 18 months.

    Why not? Wars arent fought on the battle field. Its though embargoes and economic sanctions. The EU has crippled the Russian economy already this year. What if Russia decided to punish the EU by cutting off the Gas? Europe cant survive without Russian Gas. Trade war benefit no one and countries still engage in them anyway

    No one expect OPEC to triple prices over night and they did.



    http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/03/Russian%20Gas%20Europe%20Reliance.jpg

    Actually the UK uses little Russian gas. In any case for your "worst case" scenario the likes of Germany(and others) would simply burn more coal to keep the lights on in the short term and then look to LPG imports after that. The idea that wind/solar will come to the rescue simply doesn't stack up as I outlined earlier. Indeed it highlights the stupidity of German policy of shutting down their low carbon nuclear power industry on the back of groundless hysteria. As for OPEC - they control less and less of the worlds oil supply with the US near self sufficiency and other countries continually boosting output so the comparison to the 70's has little relevance in todays world. In any case we're drifting off topic in relation to this thread's original OP into the area of Geopolitics and speculation.


  • #831
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    fclauson wrote: »
    when you have to pay the highest electrical prices in Europe and the cost of carbon offset could be more easily met elsewhere then yes its a rubbish investment
    Prove it – let’s see the costs of the alternatives.

    It's rather ironic that you kicked off this thread with "science" in the title, because there is a distinct lack of scientific reasoning in your posts.


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  • #832
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    You haven't posted anything here that suggests it has much benefit for anyone else.
    I have shown that, in the case of Ireland:
    1. Electricity generated from wind is cheap.
    2. Wind generation is an effective means of reducing CO2 emissions.


  • #833
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,539 ✭✭✭SeanW


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    If you study economic history. You will see that the world entered a deep recession in the 1970s, when OPEC tripled the price of oil over night. The world decided we couldnt be held ransom to a group of a few countries. So American increased production, we made our economies more energy efficient.

    Imagine in 2015, Putin gets sick of the West destroying his economy and hits back by turning off the Gas to Europe. What happens then? Most homes in Ireland are heated by Gas. A lot of our Electricity is generated from Gas. Our economy will be destroyed.

    When are literally in darkness and the cold, as there is no Gas for power generation. Will we be thinking "God, Im so glad we protected the landscape for the handful of people who choose to live in one off housing, while the rest of the country is in darkness". Honestly I dont think so.

    Germany is very eco friendly. But a lot of their desire for renewables is simply to ensure Putin literally doesnt have the power to turn off the lights.
    Wind mills are not the solution to gas dependence, they are the cause of it.

    If you want to get Europe unhooked from Russian gas you should oppose any further renewables expansion. The reason is that windmills do not produce power as needed, they only produce when the wind blows, which is usually a completely different matter. The only power plant type that can react and compensate for the instability introduced by renewables is gas, oil as well, but for obvious reasons that's not used much. Coal, nuclear etc cannot at this point respond to the instabilities introduced by windmills.

    djpbarry wrote: »
    I have shown that, in the case of Ireland:
    1. Electricity generated from wind is cheap.
    2. Wind generation is an effective means of reducing CO2 emissions.

    It has been proven that it is cheaper to buy a kw/h of electricity in Samoa (a remote Pacific island chain) than Germany. Nothing whatsoever has been shown that the French model is not a good one at least in large markets, with its competitive electricity costs and 90%+ non-fossil sources.

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  • #834
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    SeanW wrote: »
    It has been proven that it is cheaper to buy a kw/h of electricity in Samoa (a remote Pacific island chain) than Germany.
    That contradicts my points how?
    SeanW wrote: »
    Nothing whatsoever has been shown that the French model is not a good one...
    The massive cost of Hinckley Point C and the guaranteed inflation-linked strike price of £92.50/MWh negotiated by EDF suggest that the French model is not all it's cracked up to be. This is why comparing retail prices between territories is meaningless.


  • #835
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    djpbarry wrote: »
    That contradicts my points how?
    The massive cost of Hinckley Point C and the guaranteed inflation-linked strike price of £92.50/MWh negotiated by EDF suggest that the French model is not all it's cracked up to be.
    There is also the added points that France has a LOT of Hydro, can load balance with Germany , Italy and the UK, and is also reducing nuclear from 70% to 50%.

    Oh yeah, they haven't completed any of the new nuclear plants and costs have spiralled.


  • #836
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    With a more flexible grid we could accommodate more wind.

    With our current limit of 50% non-synchronous generation we can hit 25% power from wind some months. When the grid will able to take more then more of our power will come from it.

    Using Nuclear or Wind could save up to 50% of fossil fuel annually.
    Wind is a lot cheaper to install. Even if you had to build gas plants, which we don't.
    And years quicker to install.
    And doesn't have the same sort of hidden costs.


  • #837
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,539 ✭✭✭SeanW


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks Ireland is in any way “wild and unspoilt” is utterly deluded.
    Even with all the one off houses Ireland is a lot more unspoit than without windmills than with them. With windmills, each industrial windmill is several multiples in height of the Dublin Millenium Spire (a.k.a the Spike). Because they have to be placed on mountain and hilltops, their already massive visual impact is magnified much further still.

    I sometimes drive a long distance on a particular set of L-roads near the Border and can see an ugly windfarm from 10+ miles away, soaring high into the sky. Because they are on a mountain top, it's presumably much harder for birds and bats to fly over them safely. If it is your contention that one off houses do this much damage to Irelands scenery and natural environment, that is quite a strange claim.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Why waste time and money building a “passive house” when there already exist plenty of perfectly good houses?
    Retrofitting insulation, adding boiler stoves etc would be a good idea, knocking and rebuilding houses, not so much.
    fclauson wrote:
    viewpost.gif
    And the PSO level for renewabels is €173.9M ...
    No, that’s the total figure for renewables.
    Huh? :confused:
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    There is also the added points that France has a LOT of Hydro, can load balance with Germany , Italy and the UK, and is also reducing nuclear from 70% to 50%.
    On what planet? Germany doesn't co-operate with its neighbors, it destablises them.

    You didn't get lessons in creating a "reality distortion field" from Steve Jobs did you? Because reading your posts make me feel like I'm in some bizarro world where up is down, left is right and expensive is cheap. Or they would if I could take any of it seriously.
    Oh yeah, they haven't completed any of the new nuclear plants and costs have spiralled.
    Which indicates that they should probably build new nuclear in the same way as the current generation. remember, the French had cheap, clean,non-fossil electricity since they went nuclear in the 70s, and they still have 90% non-fossil supply with the seventh cheapest prices. So any change from the policies of the 70s cannot end well, including, possibly, the EPR if the delays with that are not an issue of "first movers disadvantage".
    djpbarry wrote: »
    That contradicts my points how?
    The massive cost of Hinckley Point C and the guaranteed inflation-linked strike price of £92.50/MWh negotiated by EDF suggest that the French model is not all it's cracked up to be. This is why comparing retail prices between territories is meaningless.
    Huh? The retail price is the "bottom line" to a bill payer it's all that matters - especially if said bill payer is not loaded, or like a lot of people, struggles to pay said bills. E.g. minimum wage, high personal debt, children. Any number of reasons why a big retail price is a big headache for an individual or family in difficulty, and abominable as social policy.

    The retail price includes all the renewables mandates, all the renewables subsidies that are required, as well as the cost of generating power from useful sources (nuclear fossil fuels etc) transmission, capacity overhead etc. So this idea that the retail price is not a good measure is bizarre. Granted, it may be less accurate if there are taxes other than green taxes or subsidies from the government general tax pool to the consumer or the producer. Other than that, the retail price perfectly encapsulates the cost of supplying a kilowatt hour to a customer.

    And it is literally cheaper to buy a Kilowatt-hour in Kiribati than Denmark, as I showed above. And there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is caused by anything other than green policy.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    With a more flexible grid we could accommodate more wind.
    So far, your only plan for this involves demand management. Doesn't change the fact that peak power demand is during a winter anti-cyclone (like Xmas 2010) while peak supply from renewables is during warm breezy summer days.
    Using Nuclear or Wind could save up to 50% of fossil fuel annually.
    Wind is a lot cheaper to install. Even if you had to build gas plants, which we don't.
    France saves 90% of fossil fuel annually. And sells its people electricity at the 7th cheapest rate in Europe.

    BTW gas plants don't last forever, they will all have to be rebuilt eventually. And the business model that paid for the current generation of gas plant won't be viable for the next.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • #838
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    SeanW wrote: »
    So far, your only plan for this involves demand management. Doesn't change the fact that peak power demand is during a winter anti-cyclone (like Xmas 2010) while peak supply from renewables is during warm breezy summer days.
    Our peak demand was 5GW and that wasn't during that really bad winters of 2010. Since we've more than 6GW dispatchable it's a complete non issue.
    France saves 90% of fossil fuel annually. And sells its people electricity at the 7th cheapest rate in Europe.
    France has LOTS of hydro. Yes they sell power to Italy and UK, but they import from Germany.
    BTW gas plants don't last forever, they will all have to be rebuilt eventually. And the business model that paid for the current generation of gas plant won't be viable for the next.
    yeah.
    Gas isn't anywhere near as cheap as coal
    It's used because it's flexible.
    Yes the business model will have to change. Like the pumped storage model in Germany that been decimated by renewables. It's very hard to compete with 'free' energy when you have to pay for fuel or import energy.

    O&M costs per KWhr will go up because they'll be generating power less of the time. But they were never going to generate power 24/7/365 anyway. All it means is that instead of being able to forecast how much power they'll generate next month they'll have to look at the weather forecasts to see how much power they'll generate next week.

    From the economics side of things it means instead of being able to command peaking price every day they will only get that peak price half of the days.

    O&M costs for gas turbines are associated with stop/start. By spinning at low power you eliminate a lot of the wear and tear. And there's still payments for spinning reserve. And lower fuel costs. So it just means that gas turbine operators have to be more agile. Just like everyone else in the private sector really.

    Nuclear with it's dependence on decades of high prices to break even, is toast if anyone figures out cheap storage or cheao energy to gas or cheap photolysis or even just better demand shedding.


  • #839
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,945 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I have shown that, in the case of Ireland:
    1. Electricity generated from wind is cheap.
    2. Wind generation is an effective means of reducing CO2 emissions.

    Yeah - wind energy is free!! Dear god we're back to that simplistic nonsense. Yet somehow Ireland's retail power bills have spiralled from below the EU averge just 15 years ago to now the third highest in the block on the back of spending billions lining the pockets of wind developers!!

    http://www.ors.ie/current-eu-energy-policies-have-damaged-european-industrial-competitiveness/

    You've recycled some old posts with back of the envelope calculations that prove nothing and have very little relevance as to the operation of a national grid forced to accept high levels of variable wind energy. The Dept of Energy still refuse to publish a comprehensive or credible CBA on the matter which is telling in itself.The relationship between high retail energy costs and installed wind capacity cannot be denied.

    https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/electricitypriceseurope.jpg

    https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/rstudioscreensnapz027.png


  • #840
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The relationship between high retail energy costs and installed wind capacity cannot be denied.]
    If all that matter is cheap power today then just burn lignite :rolleyes:

    But if you want a better environment and or reduced dependency on imports you'll have to choose other options.


    Remind us again what percentage of Germans support their renewables policy?


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  • #841
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,945 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    If all that matter is cheap power today then just burn lignite :rolleyes:

    But if you want a better environment and or reduced dependency on imports you'll have to choose other options.


    Remind us again what percentage of Germans support their renewables policy?


    Are you suggesting people who don't support the agenda of wind developers, also don't want a better environment?? Sounds a bit condescending and arrogant to me. What do you base that view on??

    Plenty of alternative ways to reduce emissions without the enormous cost of plastering the countryside with windfarms and their pylon sprawl as discussed already here in terms of retrofitting houses, converting existing power stations to sustaineable biomass,natural gas etc. As highlighted by myself and others wind does FA to reduce our dependency on imported power in any case as the recent run of windless nights shows. The "wind power at any cost"
    brigade seem to be more a PR wing of wind developers these days desperately spreading propaganda to keep the gravy train going in this country in the face of other governments cutting back on this enormous financial black hole like the UK,Australia etc.

    As for Germany

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3261018/German-consumers-face-billions-extra-costs-new-power-lines.html

    They must be very proud of their wonderfull low emmission VW diesel engines too!!

    PS: I suggest people read the submissions from ordinary people on the Government's recent energy white paper if they want to know what the mood is out there as regards our energy future. It certainly suggests the public are getting sick of the current wind developer led energy policies in this country.


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