Primary schools to get Tricolour for 1916 centenary

DanielODonnell · 16-09-2015 1:01pm

My former primary school is in a republican gaelic townland who would have been anti-treaty, the townland was sold out by Collins though, but I doubt the townlanders cared too much about some rising that was going on in Dublin at the time, noone in the townland had probably even been to Dublin, it would have been the same for places like Mayo and Kerry too.

DanielODonnell · 16-09-2015 1:03pm

In my local towns protestant high school there is a union fleg outside the school, I would have liked to have seen an Ulster province flag outside my Catholic grammar school in retaliation as it was put up solely to antagonise the passers by on the main road.

donegaLroad · 16-09-2015 1:13pm

When I was at primary school / national school... there was a copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on the classroom wall along with photographs of the martyrs of the rising. I thought that this was issued by the department and was in every school?

seamus · 16-09-2015 1:19pm

donegaLroad wrote: »

When I was at primary school / national school... there was a copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on the classroom wall along with photographs of the martyrs of the rising. I thought that this was issued by the department and was in every school?

Don't remember anything like this in school myself. Most of the walls in the halls were plastered with pictures of classes from years gone by and sporting achievements, etc. In the classrooms just the usual teaching aids and art projects and such.

riffmongous · 16-09-2015 1:29pm

seamus wrote: »

Don't remember anything like this in school myself. Most of the walls in the halls were plastered with pictures of classes from years gone by and sporting achievements, etc. In the classrooms just the usual teaching aids and art projects and such.

I remember in our 5/6th class room the walls were covered in posters that had been put up of the years, of maps and animals and plants, it was really great for those moments when you got bored and needed a distraction, the teacher himself was big into quizes and community history and the likes.

Of course when he retired everything was taken down and replaced with the usual teachers aids and it just seemed so dull and bland

recipio · 16-09-2015 1:33pm

donegaLroad wrote: »

When I was at primary school / national school... there was a copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on the classroom wall along with photographs of the martyrs of the rising. I thought that this was issued by the department and was in every school?

I think you are confusing the American Declaration of Independence ( 1776 ) with the Proclamation.
With hindsight,the 1916 'rising' wasn't for an independent Ireland, it was for a rejection of Dominion Status within the UK which had already been granted.
It was a one way bet that an Irish Republic would usher in a prosperous new era. The Unionists in the North would see sense eventually and we would start speaking Irish immediately after a little coercion in school.
What were these people thinking

Iwasfrozen · 16-09-2015 1:47pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I would have thought you, as a nervous conservative type, would thoroughly embrace state indoctrination of the unruly youth. You see, if you look at the origins of modern schooling (The Prussian-Industrial Model) its function is to train children for obedience, their future role in industry/economy and respect for hierarchy.

We couldn't have a load of little rebels, anarchists and free thinkers running around the place upsetting the status quo now could we? That simply wouldn't do.

Nope. In fact I believe our "one size fits all" school system encourages mediocrity, damages creative entrepreneurship and holds back gifted children from finding their potential.

Dyr · 16-09-2015 1:53pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And here we see the problem with blind nationalism. If you don't 100% agree with us, then **** off elsewhere you traitor.

It's ironic that the people who are really in favour of this, are the same ones that were glad to see the Union flag taken down from Belfast City Hall because it doesn't represent all the people that live up there, yet in today's multicultural society expect six year old kids to stand to attention in front of the tri colour.

I have no problem with people waving flags if that's what they want to do, nor do I have people being proud of their country, but soldiers visiting primary schools and putting up flags just seems wrong to me.

(que Junkyard Tom telling me that he doesn't care what a Brit says)

A bit of flag hanging now and then does no harm to remind some fordiners of what country it is they live in

Having the army wandering around schools is stupid though, but fine gael still have that blue shirt love affair with martial rule

RMDrive · 16-09-2015 1:55pm

donegaLroad wrote: »

When I was at primary school / national school... there was a copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on the classroom wall along with photographs of the martyrs of the rising. I thought that this was issued by the department and was in every school?

Those were issued as part of the 50 year celebrations AFAIK.

DanielODonnell · 16-09-2015 2:00pm

recipio wrote: »

I think you are confusing the American Declaration of Independence ( 1776 ) with the Proclamation.
With hindsight,the 1916 'rising' wasn't for an independent Ireland, it was for a rejection of Dominion Status within the UK which had already been granted.
It was a one way bet that an Irish Republic would usher in a prosperous new era. The Unionists in the North would see sense eventually and we would start speaking Irish immediately after a little coercion in school.
What were these people thinking

Well the unionists in Dublin seemed to convert quickly enough, you know the type who were out waving the top hats at Queen victoria in 1900?

DanielODonnell · 16-09-2015 2:02pm

Fratton Fred, sure the wee uns in the primary schools probably play gaelic football, at gaelic football grounds the tri colour is flown so they already stand under it.

recipio · 16-09-2015 2:56pm

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Well the unionists in Dublin seemed to convert quickly enough, you know the type who were out waving the top hats at Queen victoria in 1900?

They played 'God save the Queen' at the RDS horse show up to 1924

DEFTLEFTHAND · 16-09-2015 2:58pm

recipio wrote: »

They played 'God save the Queen' at the RDS horse show up to 1924

Second city of the Empire.:pac:

conorhal · 16-09-2015 3:02pm

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, because nothing screams "free thinking rebels" more than five-year-olds saluting a flag and reciting a defunct war declaration written 100 years ago.

I can guarantee you plenty of our teachers will have the kids learning the proclamation off by rote and lining them up in front of the class to recite it.

The only pitty about that is the fact that our politicians could do with a bit of the same.

This post pretty much encapsulates the reason why we are such a pathetic nation, not half the things that have been done to this country over the years and even centuries would have been possible without the degree of self loathing on display here.

seamus · 16-09-2015 3:07pm

conorhal wrote: »

The only pitty about that is the fact that our politicians could do with a bit of the same.

This post pretty much encapsulates the reason why we are such a pathetic nation, not half the things that have been done to this country over the years and even centuries would have been possible without the degree of self loathing on display here.

Because I should be angry about things that my ancestors had to deal with?

It's backward-looking begrudgery and allowing oneself to be vicariously offended through long-dead ancestors that causes the most suffering in this world.

Learn to let history be history and look to the future. You'll be a lot happier.

conorhal · 16-09-2015 3:17pm

seamus wrote: »

Because I should be angry about things that my ancestors had to deal with?

It's backward-looking begrudgery and allowing oneself to be vicariously offended through long-dead ancestors that causes the most suffering in this world.

Learn to let history be history and look to the future. You'll be a lot happier.

Angry? You should be effin' greatful for the benefits you have accrued from their sacrifices.

seamus · 16-09-2015 3:31pm

conorhal wrote: »

Angry? You should be effin' greatful for the benefits you have accrued from their sacrifices.

Well, isn't that a loaded statement

These things occurred before I was born. If they had not occurred, I would not have been born. Being "grateful" is a bit of an odd concept, because it's not like my life would be any different - my life wouldn't even exist. But that's also true of the entirety of human history. If the British had never occupied, I wouldn't exist. And neither would you or anyone else. A whole host of other people would exist in our place. Perhaps I should be grateful for the British occupation giving the Republicans the chance to sacrifice themselves for me?

I can certainly appreciate the sacrifices people made on the basis the principles for which they stood. But from an impersonal point of view. Making historical incidents a part of my identity is nonsensical. I am where I am today because of all of history, the good and the bad, the Vikings, the Celts, the British, the Republicans, even Hitler and the Nazis. Should I be grateful to all of them?

conorhal · 16-09-2015 3:47pm

seamus wrote: »

Well, isn't that a loaded statement

These things occurred before I was born. If they had not occurred, I would not have been born. Being "grateful" is a bit of an odd concept, because it's not like my life would be any different - my life wouldn't even exist. But that's also true of the entirety of human history. If the British had never occupied, I wouldn't exist. And neither would you or anyone else. A whole host of other people would exist in our place. Perhaps I should be grateful for the British occupation giving the Republicans the chance to sacrifice themselves for me?

I can certainly appreciate the sacrifices people made on the basis the principles for which they stood. But from an impersonal point of view. Making historical incidents a part of my identity is nonsensical. I am where I am today because of all of history, the good and the bad, the Vikings, the Celts, the British, the Republicans, even Hitler and the Nazis. Should I be grateful to all of them?

You're all a bit 'what have the Romans ever done for us' regards your own history. I'm often bemused by the a-historical generation's belief that history belongs in a boring book that I don't need to read.
You are where you are because of your history, the good and the bad. For the good you should thank those people on who's shoulders you stand for the opportunities you can now reach up to, as for the bad, well those you need to learn from, for those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it.

seamus · 16-09-2015 3:56pm

conorhal wrote: »

You're all a bit 'what have the Romans ever done for us' regards your own history. I'm often bemused by the a-historical generation's belief that history belongs in a boring book that I don't need to read.

That's entirely unrelated to my post.

You do know the "what have the Romans ever done for us" sketch?

You are where you are because of your history, the good and the bad. For the good you should thank those people on who's shoulders you stand for the opportunities you can now reach up to, as for the bad, well those you need to learn from, for those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it.

That's a bit convenient. I can equally reach those opportunities because of the bad. Let's take one example - if the Germans had never developed the Enigma machine, then there would have been no counter-technology developed and the basis of a lot of the technology we take for granted today would never have come about.

It's a chain of causality, and being thankful for one step in that chain while at the same time being angry about the preceding step is a logical paradox.

Yes, we should seek to replicate the good that has occurred in the past and avoid repeating the bad. But getting angry about the bad and proud of the good, is in fact repeating the same mistakes our ancestors made.

recipio · 16-09-2015 6:04pm

Those who are happy with the Republic ( and partition ) will celebrate. Those who are not will regard 1916 as a monumental cock up.:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred · 16-09-2015 8:44pm

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Fratton Fred, sure the wee uns in the primary schools probably play gaelic football, at gaelic football grounds the tri colour is flown so they already stand under it.

As I said, I have no problem with people waving flags, it's soldiers coming in to schools to read the proclamation and teach about the flag I'm not comfortable with. It all seems a bit "dated".

Maybe it's because I watched the book thief the other night...

sdanseo · 16-09-2015 9:24pm

recipio wrote: »

Those who are happy with the Republic ( and partition ) will celebrate. Those who are not will regard 1916 as a monumental cock up.:rolleyes:

You're missing the point, though.

1916 was a total military failure. It was a stupid, senseless, unplanned, and misguided attempt to show force when no real force existed. It made a mockery of the volunteer movement.

However, two key things came from it:

1. It made a point. It was the spark that lit the fire of Irish independence and provoked many thousands more into rebellion.

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

riffmongous · 16-09-2015 9:27pm

recipio wrote: »

Those who are happy with the Republic ( and partition ) will celebrate.

How exactly did you arrive at this conclusion??

tomwaterford · 16-09-2015 9:38pm

sdanseo wrote: »

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

AFAIK they dug enough graves/big enough pit to execute around 80....but orders soon came from London to stop as public opinion had turned againest them

Though it's no harm for children to learn of there country's history

katydid · 16-09-2015 10:18pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I'd say the soldiers ordered out to do that mission are going to love it , every primary school ?

Sure what else they have to do. It's not like they fight wars or anything.

LordSutch · 16-09-2015 11:54pm

sdanseo wrote: »

You're missing the point, though.

1916 was a total military failure. It was a stupid, senseless, unplanned, and misguided attempt to show force when no real force existed. It made a mockery of the volunteer movement.

However, two key things came from it:

1. It made a point. It was the spark that lit the fire of Irish independence and provoked many thousands more into rebellion.

2. The leaders were executed. 16 Irishmen shot and killed essentially in cold blood on Irish soil (well, one in England). Biggest mistake the brits ever made, because it multiplied point 1 a hundredfold.

Yet on the other hand what were the authorities to do with the rebels after such a violent attack? (in the middle of the Great War). Rebels which openly supported Germany, while 250,000 Irish men were already fighting the Germans in the trenches & on Flanders fields.

What do you do with the rebels which caused so much death & destruction?

This was the question posed to the authorities. Was it 300 civilian deaths? + X amount of army personnel (both Irish & British) + I don't now how many policemen (Irish policemen).

I guess the authorities had to do something, and at that time (during WWI) corporal punishment was often the order of the day, such was the mindset during war.

I'm not saying it was right to execute the leaders, but what the hell was General Maxwell meant to do????

What should have been done with the rebels?

DanielODonnell · 17-09-2015 1:31am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I said, I have no problem with people waving flags, it's soldiers coming in to schools to read the proclamation and teach about the flag I'm not comfortable with. It all seems a bit "dated".

Maybe it's because I watched the book thief the other night...

I will agree with you on that as I am not too fond of that army as they remind me of the Pro-treaty sort of fellows at the time.

Nodin · 17-09-2015 5:20am

LordSutch wrote: »

Yet on the other hand what were the authorities to do with the rebels after such a violent attack?

I suppose giving them a nod and fucking off back to their own country was asking too much?

Nodin · 17-09-2015 5:23am

Bambi wrote: »

A bit of flag hanging now and then does no harm to remind some fordiners of what country it is they live in

Having the army wandering around schools is stupid though, but fine gael still have that blue shirt love affair with martial rule

If it was a true blue shirt affair it would be Gardaí( missing their numbers) hauling out certain kids and given them a hiding, culminating in arrests for the dissappearnce of Shergar, Lord Lucan and the sinking of the Lusitania.

Sunnyisland · 17-09-2015 7:47am

They hoped for success, but believed that even failure was preferable to inaction, as it would reassert, and possibly reinvigorate, the long tradition of violent opposition to British authority (adding another historic date to the unsuccessful risings of 1798, 1803, 1848 and 1867).

The decision to rise was also based on the traditional Fenian dictum that England's difficulty was Ireland's opportunity.

They did not, as is sometimes thought, willingly seek martyrdom or a mystical 'blood sacrifice'. Rather they felt that a heroic gesture was required to reawaken the spirit of militant Irish nationalism.

They believed that the British government's resolution of the land and Home Rule questions, and the decline of Irish cultural identity, had almost extinguished true Irish nationality, rendering the Irish, like the Welsh and Scots, acquiescent subjects of the United Kingdom.

We should be proud of them and IMO it's a great idea, least we forget.

website.http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/easter_rising_01.shtml

Primary schools to get Tricolour for 1916 centenary

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