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Primary schools to get Tricolour for 1916 centenary

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    #152
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    recipio wrote: »
    Many of us are asserting that the present banana Republic we live in was simply not worth all the bloodletting started by the 1916 generation.To present it to our schoolchildren as a worthwhile cause is disgusting.
    It's funny though how many of those who decry the bloodletting of the Rising are usually to be found elsewhere glorifying the 49,000 Irish dead from WW1


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    #153
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Well that certainly ranks amongst one of the most ridiculous commentaries I've ever read on this site.
    I think his point is more that it wasn't a legitimate act of war, rather than pointing out that they were breaking the law. Armed insurrections are of course by any definition illegal, it's not even necessary to point it out.


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    #154
    recipio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭recipio


    kneemos wrote: »
    I think the issue is celebrating an unsuccessful rising that nobody wanted.

    Well, it was ultimately successful in that Collins made the country ungovernable. All this is 'whatiffery' to a large extent but thankfully Nationalist upsurges tend to be decided democratically nowadays as in the case of Scotland.


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    #155
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Nodin wrote: »
    I don't think your unionist perspective would be backed up by Diarmaid Ferriter, tbh.

    Indeed Diarmaid Ferriter is no Unionist, but listening to him on the radio from time to time discussing the Easter Rising is eye opening (for the uninitiated).

    That piece I wrote about the rebels being a minority (within a minority of the IRB) is taken directly from Diarmaid teaching on the Rising. You don't have to be a Unionist to read history. He also alerted me to the fact that it wasn't the gunboat Helga that destroyed large swathes of O'Connell Street, but rather 'looters' who set fires after their looting spree! Hence O'Connell Street was reduced to rubble during that week.

    What a sorry mess.


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    #156
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    recipio wrote: »
    Well, it was ultimately successful in that Collins made the country ungovernable. All this is 'whatiffery' to a large extent but thankfully Nationalist upsurges tend to be decided democratically nowadays as in the case of Scotland.

    We did have a democratic upsurge too prior to WW1 but it was undemocraticaly defeated by the army mutiny


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    #157
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Indeed Diarmaid (..............)week.

    What a sorry mess.

    Look at the bright side Sutch, next year you'll be able to empathise with a whole new group of people - you'll know exactly how Germans of a certain unrepentant sympathy feel on VE day.


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    #158
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    LordSutch wrote: »
    He also alerted me to the fact that it wasn't the gunboat Helga that destroyed large swathes of O'Connell Street, but rather 'looters' who set fires after their looting spree! Hence O'Connell Street was reduced to rubble during that week.

    What a sorry mess.
    Yes I remember reading that certain buildings on O'Connell Street were heavily targeted by looters as they belonged to William Martin Murphy. But I would think it likely the british artillery would have had an effect, if you extrapolate from the the damage that was done to Liberty Hall and the surrounding buildings which were shelled by the 18pdrs and the Helga

    http://www.historyireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The-Irish-Citizen-Army-1913-16-White-Larkin-and-Connolly-6.jpg


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    #159
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Indeed Diarmaid Ferriter is no Unionist, but listening to him on the radio from time to time discussing the Easter Rising is eye opening (for the uninitiated).

    That piece I wrote about the rebels being a minority (within a minority of the IRB) is taken directly from Diarmaid teaching on the Rising. You don't have to be a Unionist to read history. He also alerted me to the fact that it wasn't the gunboat Helga that destroyed large swathes of O'Connell Street, but rather 'looters' who set fires after their looting spree! Hence O'Connell Street was reduced to rubble during that week.

    What a sorry mess.

    It's fairly common knowledge that the ICA gave Murphys properties a good kicking during rising as payback for 1913, and fair play to them.

    But it was the helga that reduced everything to rubble


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    #160
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Bambi wrote: »
    It's fairly common knowledge that the ICA gave Murphys properties a good kicking during rising as payback for 1913, and fair play to them.

    But it was the helga that reduced everything to rubble
    I'm loving that you just outright contradict a historian without providing any kind of backup. :rolleyes:


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    #161
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,354 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Deleted User wrote: »
    About time we started embracing our national flag. I think all public places should have it flown proudly. I really like the way the Americans are proud of their flag and wish we could be as proud of ours.

    Similarly the main square in Mexico city has a gigantic Mexican flag and it's impressive tbh.

    I'd certainly like to see one on O'Connell Street rather than the bland giant steel syringe that sits in the middle of it.

    Ah the Americans are WAY to precious about thier flag though. I would not like to see it taken to thier extremes.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #162
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Are we really paying soldiers to do this crap? Really? Nationalism should stay out of schools, it's not appropriate for the government to push any kind of ideology on children. Our schools should be a blank canvas.


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    #163
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Are we really paying soldiers to do this crap? Really? Nationalism should stay out of schools, it's not appropriate for the government to push any kind of ideology on children. Our schools should be a blank canvas.


    *snicker

    Yeah, like you believe that. If it wasn't a nationalist gesture you'd be fine with it.


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    #164
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Nodin wrote: »
    *snicker

    Yeah, like you believe that. If it wasn't a nationalist gesture you'd be fine with it.
    Nope, I'm not to keen on public schools or armed forces at the best of times, the govt certainly shouldn't be using them to import ideology on children.

    Thankfully I don't have any kids but if I did they'd be getting a day off.


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    #165
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Nope, I'm not to keen on public schools or armed forces at the best of times, the govt certainly shouldn't be using them to import ideology on children.

    Thankfully I don't have any kids but if I did they'd be getting a day off.

    I hear there all going to learn the words to the rifles of the ira aswell
    :rolleyes:


    There hanging the national flag at national schools and you've managed to find issue with it :pac:


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    #166
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    riffmongous wrote: »
    It's funny though how many of those who decry the bloodletting of the Rising are usually to be found elsewhere glorifying the 49,000 Irish dead from WW1

    At least those who died in the rising actually died for something. There was no freedom at stake in Europe in WWI and no actual cause to fight for. Defend the colonies against other colonists? Meh...

    WWI should be remembered as one of the most trivial wastes of young lives in human history.
    recipio wrote: »
    Many of us are asserting that the present banana Republic we live in was simply not worth all the bloodletting started by the 1916 generation.To present it to our schoolchildren as a worthwhile cause is disgusting.

    So we squandered our Independence and failed to build a utopia. That doesn't mean the cause of Independence wasn't worth it -- the leaders of the Rising were dead. They're not responsible for the failures & shambles that came afterwards. Our failures --not theirs.

    If anything, the failures of our state are disrespectful to the memories of those who died for it. Now that's disgusting.


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    #167
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Thankfully I don't have any kids but if I did they'd be getting a day off.

    I was discussing this with someone and I think that the above is the best action to take. It would be interesting to know how much this is going to cost? Schools are complaining about a lack of funding but the powers that be have no problem wasting god knows how much on this, which has no place in our schools.

    The celebrations next Easter will be another scandalous waste of money. I suspect that there will be a sequence of horrifically expensive events in Dublin city centre. There will also be the biggest p'ss up of all time to accompany it. Best to book a holiday abroad that weekend.

    On a slightly unrelated note, I would like to see the flag design revisited, as I do not believe that it represents the RoI of today. A sizeable proportion; those who are not idealistic Irish republicans or strong minded Protestants, are not represented in the flag.
    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    WWI should be remembered as one of the most trivial wastes of young lives in human history.

    You could say the exact same thing about 1916. The RoI today is closer to the UK, in every aspects of everyday life than it was at that time. I am very happy that that is the case, for the record.


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    #168
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Berserker wrote: »
    I would like to see the flag design revisited, as I do not believe that it represents the RoI of today. A sizeable proportion; those who are not idealistic Irish republicans or strong minded Protestants, are not represented in the flag.

    What exactly are you?


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    #169
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,354 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Berserker wrote: »
    The RoI today is closer to the UK, in every aspects of everyday life than it was at that time. I am very happy that that is the case, for the record.

    That English Premier League has a lot to answer for ! :D

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #170
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,354 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Berserker wrote: »
    On a slightly unrelated note, I would like to see the flag design revisited, as I do not believe that it represents the RoI of today. A sizeable proportion; those who are not idealistic Irish republicans or strong minded Protestants, are not represented in the flag.

    Your bit is the white bit so......

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #171
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Berserker wrote: »
    I was discussing this with someone and I think that the above is the best action to take. It would be interesting to know how much this is going to cost? Schools are complaining about a lack of funding but the powers that be have no problem wasting god knows how much on this, which has no place in our schools.

    The celebrations next Easter will be another scandalous waste of money. I suspect that there will be a sequence of horrifically expensive events in Dublin city centre. There will also be the biggest p'ss up of all time to accompany it. Best to book a holiday abroad that weekend.

    On a slightly unrelated note, I would like to see the flag design revisited, as I do not believe that it represents the RoI of today. A sizeable proportion; those who are not idealistic Irish republicans or strong minded Protestants, are not represented in the flag.



    You could say the exact same thing about 1916. The RoI today is closer to the UK, in every aspects of everyday life than it was at that time. I am very happy that that is the case, for the record.

    Maybe you should move over to the "mainland" so. Surrender your passport at the airport and we'll have it destroyed.


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    #172
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Paramite Pie wrote: »

    If anything, the failures of our state are disrespectful to the memories of those who died for it. Now that's disgusting.
    Exactly, you'd wonder how some of them are able to keep a straight face while they recite the Proclamation


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    #173
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    ..........
    Thankfully I don't have any kids but if I did they'd be getting a day off.

    Lovely.


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    #174
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    sdanseo wrote: »
    Maybe you should move over to the "mainland" so. Surrender your passport at the airport and we'll have it destroyed.

    And here we see the problem with blind nationalism. If you don't 100% agree with us, then **** off elsewhere you traitor.

    It's ironic that the people who are really in favour of this, are the same ones that were glad to see the Union flag taken down from Belfast City Hall because it doesn't represent all the people that live up there, yet in today's multicultural society expect six year old kids to stand to attention in front of the tri colour.

    I have no problem with people waving flags if that's what they want to do, nor do I have people being proud of their country, but soldiers visiting primary schools and putting up flags just seems wrong to me.

    (que Junkyard Tom telling me that he doesn't care what a Brit says)


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    #175
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Nodin wrote: »
    Lovely.
    State indoctrination doesn't sit with me, sorry* if that annoys you.

    *I'm not sorry.


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    #176
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If you don't 100% agree with us, then **** off elsewhere you traitor.

    The person didn't have to be told he suggested '****ing off' himself. Sometimes it's genuinely diffucult to tell if people like Beserker are actually Irish. Note the sneering comments and ambiguous nationality. Check this out:
    Berserker wrote: »
    Or we could just knock it off the billions that you owe us from the loan we gave you during your banking system collapse. As usual, you were over in London with 'cap in hand' when it all went wrong.

    Bizarre crisis of identity going on there accompanied by sneering at the Irish people. What the actual fuck is going on there?
    It's ironic that the people who are really in favour of this, are the same ones that were glad to see the Union flag taken down from Belfast City Hall because it doesn't represent all the people that live up there, yet in today's multicultural society expect six year old kids to stand to attention in front of the tri colour.

    The flag wasn't taken down - its flying was synchronized with the days its flown in Britain. The 24/7/365 flying was the usual bunch trying to mark territory that they no longer have absolute control of. **** 'em.


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    #177
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    State indoctrination doesn't sit with me,

    I would have thought you, as a nervous conservative type, would thoroughly embrace state indoctrination of the unruly youth. You see, if you look at the origins of modern schooling (The Prussian-Industrial Model) its function is to train children for obedience, their future role in industry/economy and respect for hierarchy.

    We couldn't have a load of little rebels, anarchists and free thinkers running around the place upsetting the status quo now could we? That simply wouldn't do.


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    #178
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    State indoctrination doesn't sit with me, sorry* if that annoys you.

    *I'm not sorry.


    I'd suggest that would depend on the state.


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    #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    And here we see the problem with blind nationalism. If you don't 100% agree with us, then **** off elsewhere you traitor.

    It's ironic that the people who are really in favour of this, are the same ones that were glad to see the Union flag taken down from Belfast City Hall because it doesn't represent all the people that live up there, yet in today's multicultural society expect six year old kids to stand to attention in front of the tri colour.

    I'm not seeing the contradiction.


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    #180
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    The person didn't have to be told he suggested '****ing off' himself. Sometimes it's genuinely diffucult to tell if people like Beserker are actually Irish.

    And if they aren't?


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    #181
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    We couldn't have a load of little rebels, anarchists and free thinkers running around the place upsetting the status quo now could we? That simply wouldn't do.
    Yeah, because nothing screams "free thinking rebels" more than five-year-olds saluting a flag and reciting a defunct war declaration written 100 years ago.

    I can guarantee you plenty of our teachers will have the kids learning the proclamation off by rote and lining them up in front of the class to recite it.


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