Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose my argument is more along the lines of it worked in pilot schemes in the UK, it's worth a shot.

I'm not downplaying such behaviour, but everything happens for a reason. If they're just thugs, why are they that way. If they were provoked, why were they?

I have a lot of empathy for victims, but I do have empathy for the attackers as well. There's a reason they feel that way.

I have worked in the past with people from difficult backgrounds as a facilitator, and one of the big problems you come across is the fear that they can't change as people have already made up their minds about them, judging them on accents or the way they dress. But, there has been a lot of success stories. People who have become drug counsellors being former addicts themselves would be an example.

Yeah but unfortunately the world is a big place with lots of moving parts. We don't have the resources or the time to pour into fixing scumbaggery like this. The more we pander to the notion that it's society's fault the more we forgive the unforgivable.

I'm from a working class area. When I was a teenager I made bad choices and good ones. I did wrong and I did right. But NEVER in a million years would I have even thought of assaulting a garda. I can't even fathom a scenario where a 16 year old deems it okay to break a garda's jaw.

They get this attitude from their parents. And make no mistake in a few years time that 16 year old will be a fully grown man. That's when the real problem start. That's when more people get hurt because some ape thinks assaulting people is fun.

When it's you on the cobble stones in Temple Bar getting kicked around by 5 or 6 lads, lets see you preach your "disadvantaged area" bollocks then. You'll be praying to see a garda, or should I say "private IW security guard" jump in and help you. And they will because it's their job to come face to face with these scrotes every day instead just theorizing about them behind a laptop.

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 04:06PM

Fukuyama wrote: »

Yeah but unfortunately the world is a big place with lots of moving parts. We don't have the resources or the time to pour into fixing scumbaggery like this. The more we pander to the notion that it's society's fault the more we forgive the unforgivable.

I'm from a working class area. When I was a teenager I made bad choices and good ones. I did wrong and I did right. But NEVER in a million years would I have even thought of assaulting a garda. I can't even fathom a scenario where a 16 year old deems it okay to break a garda's jaw.

They get this attitude from their parents. And make no mistake in a few years time that 16 year old will be a fully grown man. That's when the real problem start. That's when more people get hurt because some ape thinks assaulting people is fun.

When it's you on the cobble stones in Temple Bar getting kicked around by 5 or 6 lads, lets see you preach your "disadvantaged area" bollocks then. You'll be praying to see a garda emerge.

Agreed with a lot but I don't think it's always from their parents. Sometimes it's who they hang around with. We've heard of those parents who did their best and were loving and supportive but their hearts are now broken by their sh1tty sons/daughters.

mynamejeff · 05-09-2015 04:06PM

Just because i dare to point out that people who claim to be poor really arent and have access to large amounts of cash and goods you get back on the IW trash again ? poor effort

Oberstown is staffed by social care workers not prison officers and theyoperate in exactly the ways you suggested that young offenders like these should be dealt with and heres what happens

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-search-for-teens-who-escaped-from-detention-centre-1.2298423

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/theyll-assault-you-if-you-burn-the-toast-says-oberstown-worker-31437407.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/thirtyone-staff-members-suffer-assaults-at-troubled-oberstown-31414612.html

Mesrine65 · 05-09-2015 04:08PM

haveringchick wrote: »

These families are in fear of no one except the lieutenants higher up then them in whatever criminal gang their affiliated with.

Jaysus, stop watching Love/Hate, it's warping your reality :pac:

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Joan is that you giving out about people having mobile phones again :pac:

Regarding Oberstown, just one quick look brings up: http://www.thejournal.ie/oberstown-handcuffs-1954748-Feb2015/

Do you really think that's a good example of how things should be done?

For balance, here's the latest news post: http://www.thejournal.ie/young-person-hospitalised-attack-oberstown-2282551-Aug2015/

A vicious attack, yet the last line is particularly telling:

“Representatives of workers at the centre have pointed out that alarms failed to trigger and there is serious concern amongst staff regarding the level of training that they have received to deal with incidents such as this.”

You deal with a 17 year old who has no problem strangling a female member of staff. Because that's just one incident that went down recently in Oberstown.

The staff there aren't prison guards either. Some of these kids, unfortunately, would need to be let out in chains judging by the horror stories coming out of that place.

I'm starting to question whether you've ever been mugged, started on by a group or even ever come face to face with these types. :rolleyes:

They're not "working class". They're unemployable scum.

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 04:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Joan is that you giving out about people having mobile phones again :pac:

Regarding Oberstown, just one quick look brings up: http://www.thejournal.ie/oberstown-handcuffs-1954748-Feb2015/

Do you really think that's a good example of how things should be done?

For balance, here's the latest news post: http://www.thejournal.ie/young-person-hospitalised-attack-oberstown-2282551-Aug2015/

A vicious attack, yet the last line is particularly telling:

“Representatives of workers at the centre have pointed out that alarms failed to trigger and there is serious concern amongst staff regarding the level of training that they have received to deal with incidents such as this.”

That's because they've been trained in conflict resolution and de-escalation and have had little training in physical restraint.

05-09-2015 04:14PM

Fukuyama wrote: »

You deal with a 17 year old who has no problem strangling a female member of staff. Because that's just one incident that went down recently in Oberstown.

The staff there aren't prison guards either. Some of these kids, unfortunately, would need to be let out in chains judging by the horror stories coming out of that place.

I'm starting to question whether you've ever been mugged, started on by a group or even ever come face to face with these types. :rolleyes:

They're not "working class". They're unemployable scum.

I'll nip this one in the bud. I'm from a less than desirable area, I've been mugged, I've had a knife held up to my throat, and I was jumped on. I also saw cars on fire as I made my way to school. There's at least ten lads from my youth who are dead from heroin or suicide.

But I've also seen good as well. Which is why I defend these people. Because whatever you think, they're still people.

Now, can we put this whole, "I have no idea what I'm talking about" to bed?

Trust me, they're employable when given the assists and supports they need.

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:14PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Agreed with a lot but I don't think it's always from their parents. Sometimes it's who they hang around with. We've heard of those parents who did their best and were loving and supportive but their hearts are now broken by their sh1tty sons/daughters.

Quite true.

I'm from a bad enough area in Dublin. Not the worst but far from the best. I've seen friends of mine get in with the tough crowd when we were teenagers. Push would come to shove and they'd back away from it when they realize being "cool" meant doing scummy things.

A few might actually go all in and become little scrotes. Oh well. They have even less of a leg to stand on when it comes to their day in court.

99% of the time it's the parents. Even little things like openly stating to their children that they hate gardaí can have a huge affect on how that kid will interact with the guards when they're older.

When I was a kid I was taught that police men were the "good guys" and that was that. It isn't always true, no doubt, but this "fúck de garda scum" attitude adopted by many is the root of the problem.

gctest50 · 05-09-2015 04:16PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

.............
Oberstown is staffed by social care workers not prison officers and they operate in exactly the ways you suggested that young offenders like these should be dealt with and heres what happens
..............

how do you know they do 24/7 ? are you there overseeing all ? ......... Aras Attracta - some were registered nurse after all

this sounds more like whimpering that they can't throw their weight around any more and might have to develop skills :

They warned that most staff do not have sufficient training.

Workers warned that the facility was not prepared for the introduction of older offenders who are "physically bigger, older and exhibit more challenging behaviour".

Staff said this has "changed the dynamic" between staff and the younger offenders.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/thirtyone-staff-members-suffer-assaults-at-troubled-oberstown-31414612.html

Dan_Solo · 05-09-2015 04:19PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Genuine question, are you related or connected to someone who acts this way? You seem so keen to paint them as the victim, I can't tell if it's naivety or if you are just in denial for some reason.

Alleging criminal associations with another poster. Classy.

05-09-2015 04:21PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Oberstown is staffed by social care workers not prison officers and theyoperate in exactly the ways you suggested that young offenders like these should be dealt with

No it is not.

In total, the report found the centre complied with just one in ten standards.

http://www.thejournal.ie/oberstown-handcuffs-1954748-Feb2015/

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 04:22PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Alleging criminal associations with another poster. Classy.

She asked a question - she did not make an allegation.

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll nip this one in the bud. I'm from a less than desirable area, I've been mugged, I've had a knife held up to my throat, and I was jumped on. I also saw cars on fire as I made my way to school. There's at least ten lads from my youth who are dead from heroin or suicide.

But I've also seen good as well. Which is why I defend these people. Because whatever you think, they're still people.

Now, can we put this whole, "I have no idea what I'm talking about" to bed?

Trust me, they're employable when given the assists and supports they need.

Look. There are lads in fecken ISIS who feel justified in doing what they do. Some of them even make fair enough points about their motivations for being in ISIS.

Could I give a fiddlers about rehabilitating them or teaching them to love, laugh, live? Nope.

Same for anyone who rejects a country and society that gives generous welfare and, like it or not, has a puppy dog police force.

I've watched the IW videos and participated in the threads here in AH. If you think a bad garda is one who pushes someone off the road or batons a "peaceful protester" or pepper sprays a drunken assailant then it just proves that you've no idea what police brutality is.

I've no doubt that taking one of these kids, spending hundreds of thousands housing them elsewhere, providing teaching assistants, life coaches, counselling and special job opportunities would "fix" them.

But I don't want to see that. I'd rather see victims given support, special needs children get proper facilities and after school clubs set up for coding and sports for kids.

I've been 16 before. I've been angry and I hated my life before. But I was old enough to take responsibility for my own actions and I felt consequences for them. There are two gardaí with facial injuries who will be out of work for weeks, if not months. Thats two less people that stand between normal, law abiding people and these animals.

We have limited resources. Lets spend them on people who actually want and need our help. Not these selfish, entitled, lazy, arrogant little thugs.

05-09-2015 04:25PM

Fukuyama wrote: »

Look. There are lads in fecken ISIS who feel justified in doing what they do. Some of them even make fair enough points about their motivations for being in ISIS.

Could I give a fiddlers about rehabilitating them or teaching them to love, laugh, live? Nope.

Same for anyone who rejects a country and society that gives generous welfare and, like it or not, has a puppy dog police force.

I've watched the IW videos and participated in the threads here in AH. If you think a bad garda is one who pushes someone off the road or batons a "peaceful protester" or pepper sprays a drunken assailant then it just proves that you've no idea what police brutality is.

I've no doubt that taking one of these kids, spending hundreds of thousands housing them elsewhere, providing teaching assistants, life coaches, counselling and special job opportunities would "fix" them.

But I don't want to see that. I'd rather see victims given support, special needs children get proper facilities and after school clubs set up for coding and sports for kids.

I've been 16 before. I've been angry and I hated my life before. But I was old enough to take responsibility for my own actions and I felt consequences for them. There are two gardaí with facial injuries who will be out of work for weeks, if not months. Thats two less people that stand between normal, law abiding people and these animals.

We have limited resources. Lets spend them on people who actually want and need our help. Not these selfish, entitled, lazy, arrogant little thugs.

So lock them up and throw away the key as no good at all can come from them?

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 04:31PM

You can read the report here

http://hiqa.ie/social-care/find-a-centre/childrens-centre/oberstown-campus

It's not too long. It's talked about like it's proof Oberstown is some hell hole for kids but the reasons it doesn't meet the standards are generally minor. Things like poor fire drills, children not feeling like they have an input and poor record keeping.

mynamejeff · 05-09-2015 04:34PM

gctest50 wrote: »

how do you know they do 24/7 ? are you there overseeing all ? ......... Aras Attracta - some were registered nurse after all

this sounds more like whimpering that they can't throw their weight around any more and might have to develop skills :

Good Christ man !!! Have you ever been in places like oberstown or Pats or mountjoy or anywhere like that ?
do you know anything about it or the people there ?
evidently not .

no on in those places are there by accident or in on the first offence,

if you have a problem with any possible sort of administration as it seems good luck running the world on your own to your standerds

Mesrine65 · 05-09-2015 04:35PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You can read the report here

http://hiqa.ie/social-care/find-a-centre/childrens-centre/oberstown-campus

It's not too long. It's talked about like it's proof Oberstown is some hell hole for kids but the reasons it doesn't meet the standards are generally minor. Things like poor fire drills, children not feeling like they have an input and poor record keeping.

All essential standard operating procedures when you have a duty of care towards minors.

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So lock them up and throw away the key as no good at all can come from them?

Look. Nobody is seriously recommending life imprisonment here. These kids are lucky that they live in a western, common law country. There are hundreds of countries around the world where this crime would have resulted in hard labour, 20 years in jail, public lashings or it just would have been dealt with at the scene.

I don't have a justice boner or a desire to see cruel and unusual punishments.

These kids want opportunity? Here's their opportunity. A fcuking suspended sentence or a JLO or whatever airey fairy "punishment" they're going to get. They're going to get a carte blanch after this and won't see the inside of a cell. I guarantee it. That right there is a gold plated, literal "get out of jail free" card.

If I assaulted someone, no less a GARDA, and broke their jaw, I'd fcuking fellate the judge right there in the court room for not sending me the Joy.

These idiots laugh at us. Off they're going to pop back to their areas when all is said and done, laughing and joking about the whole thing. If anything, this will just be a medal of honour and a nice little boost to their reputations.

They're human. But I don't consider people like that worthy of my pitty, empathy or help. I'll save that for my fellow humans struggling across the Mediterranean or trapped in countries where human rights are non-existent.

If you well and truly did come from a "working class" area (and I'm not here to play "whose area was ****tier") then you'll know the attitudes that this small minority of people have. You'll know the reputation they gain EVERYONE who lives in that area. And you'll know that they don't care about stabbing you to death or breaking your jaw. Not a single fcuk given.

Defend them all you want. I'd say the first people to laugh at you for doing so would be them.

Greenman · 05-09-2015 04:37PM

ROI too soft/liberal on crime. Crims love Ireland, you really have to be bad to get locked up. Hit the gaurdians of these .......... in the pocket. If on assistance reduce it to pay the fine. No jail for non payment of fines that's a waste.

05-09-2015 04:38PM

Greenman wrote: »

ROI too soft/liberal on crime. Crims love Ireland, you really have to be bad to get locked up. Hit the gaurdians of these .......... in the pocket. If on assistance reduce it to pay the fine. No jail for non payment of fines that's a waste.

So they resort to stealing instead.

Sound logic.

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:39PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

All essential standard operating procedures when you have a duty of care towards minors.

31 staff on sick leave for being assaulted, stabbed, spit on, threatened. Staff fear for their lives in that place and from what I can tell the newspapers don't need to jazz the stories up.

But yeah. I'd say a nice orderly fire drill would be a piece of cake in there. :rolleyes:

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 04:42PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

All essential standard operating procedures when you have a duty of care towards minors.

True, but it is far from mistreatment.

05-09-2015 04:42PM

Fukuyama wrote: »

31 staff on sick leave for being assaulted, stabbed, spit on, threatened. Staff fear for their lives in that place and from what I can tell the newspapers don't need to jazz the stories up.

But yeah. I'd say a nice orderly fire drill would be a piece of cake in there. :rolleyes:

Sick leave for being spat on or threatened?

Really?

I understand the ones that are on leave for being assaulted or stabbed. A dreadful thing to happen, but it's not like they drew lots for these jobs. You know the risks when working with damaged people, especially confused teenagers.

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 04:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sick leave for being spat on or threatened?

Really?

I understand the ones that are on leave for being assaulted or stabbed. A dreadful thing to happen, but it's not like they drew lots for these jobs. You know the risks when working with damaged people, especially confused teenagers.

31 on leave from serious assaults alone.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/oberstown-youth-detention-centre-staff-frightened-they-may-be-killed-at-work-31429080.html

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 04:45PM

Fukuyama wrote: »

Look. Nobody is seriously recommending life imprisonment here. These kids are lucky that they live in a western, common law country. There are hundreds of countries around the world where this crime would have resulted in hard labour, 20 years in jail, public lashings or it just would have been dealt with at the scene.

I don't have a justice boner or a desire to see cruel and unusual punishments.

These kids want opportunity? Here's their opportunity. A fcuking suspended sentence or a JLO or whatever airey fairy "punishment" they're going to get. They're going to get a carte blanch after this and won't see the inside of a cell. I guarantee it. That right there is a gold plated, literal "get out of jail free" card.

If I assaulted someone, no less a GARDA, and broke their jaw, I'd fcuking fellate the judge right there in the court room for not sending me the Joy.

These idiots laugh at us. Off they're going to pop back to their areas when all is said and done, laughing and joking about the whole thing. If anything, this will just be a medal of honour and a nice little boost to their reputations.

They're human. But I don't consider people like that worthy of my pitty, empathy or help. I'll save that for my fellow humans struggling across the Mediterranean or trapped in countries where human rights are non-existent.

If you well and truly did come from a "working class" area (and I'm not here to play "whose area was ****tier") then you'll know the attitudes that this small minority of people have. You'll know the reputation they gain EVERYONE who lives in that area. And you'll know that they don't care about stabbing you to death or breaking your jaw. Not a single fcuk given.

Defend them all you want. I'd say the first people to laugh at you for doing so would be them.

I find it's mostly people from middle-class backgrounds, who have grown up in a nice quiet area, that have this bizarre empathy towards criminals. I believe Pappa Dolla when they say they're from a disadvantaged area but it's unusual. Most people I know who had to grow up tormented by scum would not take that empathetic approach at all. They'd defend their community from unjustified snobbery of course, but they wouldn't be arguing against the view that scumbags are usually horrible people devoid of empathy.

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 04:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand the ones that are on leave for being assaulted or stabbed. A dreadful thing to happen, but it's not like they drew lots for these jobs. You know the risks when working with damaged people, especially confused teenagers.

Your shifting of responsibility is astounding.

Greenman · 05-09-2015 04:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So they resort to stealing instead.

Sound logic.

They're probably doing it anyway.

Fukuyama · 05-09-2015 04:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sick leave for being spat on or threatened?

Really?

I understand the ones that are on leave for being assaulted or stabbed. A dreadful thing to happen, but it's not like they drew lots for these jobs. You know the risks when working with damaged people, especially confused teenagers.

It was a boarding school for "troublesome" kids. That could be acting out in school or minor crimes. They had ZERO incidents for 20 years. ZERO.

Then some genius decided to close Pats and ship them all there. You're expecting special needs teachers, many of whom could be old, female or small in stature to suddenly become prison guards.

There's a reason the Irish Prison Service recruit most of their staff directly from the Army and other such organisations. You're not dealing with "confused teens" as you put it. You're dealing with people who have and will stab people over petty arguments.

Getting spit at in your job when you're trying to help people is stressful. It's a form of assault. Would you like your sister/girlfriend/wife going in there and getting spat at in the face? Perhaps she'd be stressed about it. Or upset. Maybe she's consistently spat at, insulted, intimidated, threatened? Because that's what I'm getting from the reports coming out of there.

I feel bad for two groups of people in Ormonstown:

The teachers and the teenagers who were there to get their act together. These two groups are suddenly under siege and experiencing prison conditions as a result of the animals you quickly jump to defend, yet dodge any of my points by simply toeing the "they're just kids" line.

05-09-2015 04:50PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

31 on leave from serious assaults alone.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/oberstown-youth-detention-centre-staff-frightened-they-may-be-killed-at-work-31429080.html

That is absolutely disgraceful.

Can I bring your attention to:

The staff say the crisis inside the centre has been precipitated by bad planning and management of the programme to transfer young offenders from the St Patrick’s youth prison in the Mountjoy complex to Oberstown over the past two years.

One of the main problems involved in the rapid expansion of the centre, which currently houses around 80 male and 10 female inmates, is said to be the lack of privacy and quiet areas where staff can speak to inmates and calm them down.

The expansion involved increasing the size of the sleeping quarters from four to 10 inmates in locked rooms which were apparently built without buzzers to alert staff. This resulted in inmates resorting to kicking doors in the dormitory units to attract attention and several of the doors were reportedly kicked off their hinges.

Staff say the acoustics are so bad inside the new centre that it is impossible to speak quietly to inmates to calm them down in violent situations.

05-09-2015 04:51PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Your shifting of responsibility is astounding.

Just agreeing with the workers that work there. They're not blaming the kids, but the system.

Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

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