Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

jugger · 04-09-2015 11:22PM

gctest50 wrote: »

It's more gardai that's needed ( that are actually paid resonably well )

- there is no substitute for numbers

Yes your right I meant that been attacked by a group if pepper spray is all you have then use it

I do belive the garda are under funded under manned and unsupported by the rest of the legal system 50 convictions and no jail time isn't unheard of garda bring these people to court with all the time and effort involved and they walk free it must be hard to stomach

Means Of Escape · 04-09-2015 11:33PM

Get the Smith and Wesson family to help out the Gardai

not yet · 04-09-2015 11:41PM

Would someone please think of the kids..

Means Of Escape · 04-09-2015 11:54PM

not yet wrote: »

Would someone please think of the kids..

On their way home after visiting hours no doubt.

Joe prim · 05-09-2015 12:03AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And typo of the day award goes to...

He spelt kondescending rong two!

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 09:37AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And people didn't like me talking about it, so I dropped it. Or would you prefer if I was entrenched in my thoughts and the discussion went round in circles?

You are still entrenched. You didn't change your opinion, just your reasoning. You're sticking to your conclusion and trying to find facts to prove it rather than forming a conclusion based on facts.

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Get the Smith and Wesson family to help out the Gardai

Just get more Gardaí on the street and fix the penal system. That's what most Gardaí want.

05-09-2015 12:07PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You are still entrenched. You didn't change your opinion, just your reasoning. You're sticking to your conclusion and trying to find facts to prove it rather than forming a conclusion based on facts.

Just get more Gardaí on the street and fix the penal system. That's what most Gardaí want.

The only position I'm entrenched in is that I want to wait for the facts to come in first.

Fancy answering the question I asked you above?

Would retaliation from Mr Holness have been acceptable if he was able?

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/two-gardai-are-jailed-for-role-in-ferocious-arrest-assault-26789927.html

Dan_Solo · 05-09-2015 12:09PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Just get more Gardaí on the street and fix the penal system. That's what most Gardaí want.

And mandatory chest cams. If you don't have one for any reason you don't get paid that day.

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 12:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The only position I'm entrenched in is that I want to wait for the facts to come in first.

Fancy answering the question I asked you above?

Would retaliation from Mr Holness have been acceptable if he was able?

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/two-gardai-are-jailed-for-role-in-ferocious-arrest-assault-26789927.html

Your position is that the Gardaí are somehow responsible for causing the youths to act violently. Your question is irrelevant as there is no suggestion the guy who attacked the Gardaí in this situation was assaulted.

corner of hells · 05-09-2015 12:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The only position I'm entrenched in is that I want to wait for the facts to come in first.

Fancy answering the question I asked you above?

Would retaliation from Mr Holness have been acceptable if he was able?

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/two-gardai-are-jailed-for-role-in-ferocious-arrest-assault-26789927.html

I doubt you would accept the facts , your posts suggest that these two Gardai had some other hidden agenda other than most likely seize or check the status of that bike.

Even to draw a correlation with the assault that you quote is ridiculous, those Gardai were caught and convicted yet you want to bring it to another level by asking if that man retaliatated would it be acceptable by bringing in hypothetical scenarios.

Mesrine65 · 05-09-2015 12:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you not think retaliation would be acceptable in this case?

Yes retaliation in the form of self-defence would be acceptable in this case IMHO :eek:

AGS are not above the laws they are sworn to enforce.

05-09-2015 12:46PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your position is that the Gardaí are somehow responsible for causing the youths to act violently. Your question is irrelevant as there is no suggestion the guy who attacked the Gardaí in this situation was assaulted.

I guess I'll have to repeat myself again...

My position is to wait for the facts.

Your position is they're indefensible scum who should be locked up without a trial.

corner of hells wrote: »

I doubt you would accept the facts , your posts suggest that these two Gardai had some other hidden agenda other than most likely seize or check the status of that bike.

Even to draw a correlation with the assault that you quote is ridiculous, those Gardai were caught and convicted yet you want to bring it to another level by asking if that man retaliatated would it be acceptable by bringing in hypothetical scenarios.

I dunno, I'm pretty good at changing my mind on things once I see facts.
My posts suggest that yes, there is a possibility that the Gardai had a hidden agenda. Very unlikely, may I add quickly before I get accused of something else. But while there is the possibility, no matter how remote, it has to be investigated.

Those gardai were caught and convicted after the facts were established, but I bet the day after the attack you would have had a hell of a lot people on forums like these, saying that Holness must have deserved it as the guards don't give kickings for no reason.

Little CuChulainn · 05-09-2015 01:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess I'll have to repeat myself again...

My position is to wait for the facts.

Your position is they're indefensible scum who should be locked up without a trial.

Is it? Where did I say anything remotely resembling that?

Dan_Solo · 05-09-2015 01:27PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Is it? Where did I say anything remotely resembling that?

Actually, ya know, you did. In the opening post:

Little CuChulainn wrote:

The only punishment currently available for these lads

You already had them convicted in your head.

DanielODonnell · 05-09-2015 01:53PM

My mother says that Dubs would rob you for your last cigarette or "feg"

Birneybau · 05-09-2015 02:02PM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

My mother says that Dubs would rob you for your last cigarette or "feg"

Ah, wee Daniel's mammy.

haveringchick · 05-09-2015 02:47PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah. People have lost respect for the guards now. It's a dangerous state to live in fear instead of respect. When you live in fear, you're far more likely to lash out, but if you have respect, you can have a discussion.

No point having a discussion when one group sees the other side as "subhuman", " scumbags" "toe rags" etc.

Do you genuinely imagine that these children and their families are living in fear? That's the most naive post I've read so far on boards. These families are in fear of no one except the lieutenants higher up then them in whatever criminal gang their affiliated with. The water protests mean nothing to them except that it's a chance to hammer a few Gardai under the guise of "peaceful protest". Please open your eyes and take your head out of wherever you stuck it. This country is on a collision course with disaster because of the sheer number of scrotesof both sexes occupying every housing estate and pouring out of every school

05-09-2015 02:54PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Do you genuinely imagine that these children and their families are living in fear? That's the most naive post I've read so far on boards. These families are in fear of no one except the lieutenants higher up then them in whatever criminal gang their affiliated with. The water protests mean nothing to them except that it's a chance to hammer a few Gardai under the guise of "peaceful protest". Please open your eyes and take your head out of wherever you stuck it. This country is on a collision course with disaster because of the sheer number of scrotesof both sexes occupying every housing estate and pouring out of every school

My eyes are wide open thankyouverymuch.

We're in the sh*t, country wide, and the only answer from people seems to be, lock all these "scumbags" up, throw away keys. F*ck it, let's take their children away, neuter them, sterilise them. They're born poor, they don't stand a chance. They're not even human...

We have a choice. We can try and discuss and look for solutions.

Or we can do nothing, accept our lot and just let the country rot.

One eyed Jack · 05-09-2015 03:04PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My eyes are wide open thankyouverymuch.

We're in the sh*t, country wide, and the only answer from people seems to be, lock all these "scumbags" up, throw away keys. F*ck it, let's take their children away, neuter them, sterilise them. They're born poor, they don't stand a chance. They're not even human...

We have a choice. We can try and discuss and look for solutions.

Or we can do nothing, accept our lot and just let the country rot.

It's impossible to have a discussion with someone who refuses to acknowledge that antisocial behaviour existed in society long before bankers or Irish Water nonsense, and still that doesn't give anyone a right to assault a member of AGS who have a difficult enough job as it is without juvenile delinquents making their work even more difficult and making the lives of everyone else in their communities miserable.

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 03:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My eyes are wide open thankyouverymuch.

We're in the sh*t, country wide, and the only answer from people seems to be, lock all these "scumbags" up, throw away keys. F*ck it, let's take their children away, neuter them, sterilise them. They're born poor, they don't stand a chance. They're not even human...

We have a choice. We can try and discuss and look for solutions.

Or we can do nothing, accept our lot and just let the country rot.

Well I'm not in favour of sterilisation (can't see anything wrong with taking children from people who don't look after them though - it's the children who are the priority; can't see a problem with jail either for people with reams of convictions).
I agree people are products of their environment - but only to a point. Some people are just awful too. What about those who have awful upbringings and don't become scumbags? What about those who have good upbringings yet still become scumbags?

I agree we do need to examine what causes the roots of such social problems too, rather than just focusing on punishment and further disenfranchisement - but this can be done without denial of personal responsibility.

We're not at all in the sh-t BTW. That would be more applicable to somewhere like Syria.

eviltwin · 05-09-2015 03:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My eyes are wide open thankyouverymuch.

We're in the sh*t, country wide, and the only answer from people seems to be, lock all these "scumbags" up, throw away keys. F*ck it, let's take their children away, neuter them, sterilise them. They're born poor, they don't stand a chance. They're not even human...

We have a choice. We can try and discuss and look for solutions.

Or we can do nothing, accept our lot and just let the country rot.

Genuine question, are you related or connected to someone who acts this way? You seem so keen to paint them as the victim, I can't tell if it's naivety or if you are just in denial for some reason.

K4t · 05-09-2015 03:17PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I agree people are products of their environment - but only to a point. Some people are just awful too. What about those who have awful upbringings and don't become scumbags? What about those who have good upbringings yet still become scumbags?

Yes, it's just a coincidence that most cases of attacks on Gardaí and other violent crime comes from traditionally low income, rougher areas. People are not born awful, maybe a minuscule percentage are, but the chances that most of them would be born in such areas with social issues is slightly convenient don't you think?

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 03:20PM

Definitely believe some people are just innately awful, and their upbringing/environment determines how far they'll go. If they're brought up with boundaries they aren't going to be as blatant, but they'll still be sh-tty to others in what way they can.
It's a combination of nature and nurture.

K4t · 05-09-2015 03:28PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Definitely believe some people are just innately awful, and their upbringing/environment determines how far they'll go. If they're brought up with boundaries they aren't going to be as blatant, but they'll still be sh-tty to others in what way they can.
It's a combination of nature and nurture.

And how do we decide who these innately awful people are, by your world view and experiences? Genuinely fascinated by your human evolutionary theory here.

Cold War Kid · 05-09-2015 03:33PM

K4t wrote: »

And how do we decide who these innately awful people are, by your world view and experiences? Genuinely fascinated by your human evolutionary theory here.

Well don't you know people who have good lives, been treated well, afforded all the opportunities and privileges they could want, yet are still rotten *****? I used to think it was always just nurture - and maybe sometimes mental illness - but not any more. Some people are simply horrible.

What about people with terribly upbringings and growing up in rough environments, who *don't* become thugs?

05-09-2015 03:41PM

What would you all do to stop* the "scumbag" problem? Serious question, give me some alternatives to my counselling, nuturing, treating them equally, invoking empathy approach?

Do you really think locking people up is the best approach after all these years?

*Presuming you're unhappy with anti-social behaviour, and hope for a solution.

haveringchick · 05-09-2015 03:47PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My eyes are wide open thankyouverymuch.

We're in the sh*t, country wide, and the only answer from people seems to be, lock all these "scumbags" up, throw away keys. F*ck it, let's take their children away, neuter them, sterilise them. They're born poor, they don't stand a chance. They're not even human...

We have a choice. We can try and discuss and look for solutions.

Or we can do nothing, accept our lot and just let the country rot.

Nowhere have I mentioned neutering sterilising or locking anyone up.
You are actually doing these people the greatest disservice of all by insisting that they take absolutely no personal responsibility for their actions.
People like you ferociously blaming "the man" just allows them to continue wrecking their own lives as well as impacting very badly on those they come into contact with, neighbours, local businesses , teachers, schools, the health system etc.
But according to you it's not their fault it's ours?
Well, we've had about 20 years of wooly left wing handwringing that you espouse and record numbers of these kids are literally killing themselves because of the chaos having no boundaries and carrying and unbearable load of self entitlement brought to their lives, so do you want to continue telling them that they can continue doing whatever they want whenever they want or do you want to try something else?

mynamejeff · 05-09-2015 03:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What would you all do to stop* the "scumbag" problem? Serious question, give me some alternatives to my counselling, nuturing, treating them equally, invoking empathy approach?

Do you really think locking people up is the best approach after all these years?

*Presuming you're unhappy with anti-social behaviour, and hope for a solution.

Been working well in oberstown hasnt it ?

also have to wondr who poor and disadvantage these people are if they can afford motorbikes helmets etc as playthings ?

05-09-2015 03:56PM

I suppose my argument is more along the lines of it worked in pilot schemes in the UK, it's worth a shot.

I'm not downplaying such behaviour, but everything happens for a reason. If they're just thugs, why are they that way. If they were provoked, why were they?

I have a lot of empathy for victims, but I do have empathy for the attackers as well. There's a reason they feel that way.

I have worked in the past with people from difficult backgrounds as a facilitator, and one of the big problems you come across is the fear that they can't change as people have already made up their minds about them, judging them on accents or the way they dress. But, there has been a lot of success stories. People who have become drug counsellors being former addicts themselves would be an example.

05-09-2015 04:01PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Been working well in oberstown hasnt it ?

also have to wondr who poor and disadvantage these people are if they can afford motorbikes helmets etc as playthings ?

Joan is that you giving out about people having mobile phones again :pac:

Regarding Oberstown, just one quick look brings up: http://www.thejournal.ie/oberstown-handcuffs-1954748-Feb2015/

The inspection found that children were “not always safe” there, because best practice was not always implemented.

One child was locked in a room for 83 hours and 45 minutes over four days.

At the time, 30% of staff had not received up to date training in behaviour management.

Do you really think that's a good example of how things should be done?

For balance, here's the latest news post: http://www.thejournal.ie/young-person-hospitalised-attack-oberstown-2282551-Aug2015/

A vicious attack, yet the last line is particularly telling:

“Representatives of workers at the centre have pointed out that alarms failed to trigger and there is serious concern amongst staff regarding the level of training that they have received to deal with incidents such as this.”

Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

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