Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 01:47PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

The U.S. has reduced crime rates from a very high to a high level but it probably doesn't satisfy the parenthetical part of that argument.

However crime can't happen when somebody is locked up, even if recidivism does happen after, and that's part of the reason to lock people up.

There's a sea between "lock them up and throw away the key" and "what does prison solve anyway" and we veer to much to the latter.

Boskowski · 04-09-2015 01:48PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Ireland/United-States/Crime

That'd be a no then. Opposite in fact.

Well the question was about bringing them down or not. Not about absolute numbers.

I thought it was widely recognised that for example Guilianis zero tolerance and 3 strikes has improved New York quite a bit. I'm not terribly well informed though, its just what I picked up from the news.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 01:48PM

handlemaster wrote: »

You got me there. I have a very small mobile screen and I dont have time to go back over everything I write or for that matter interested in doing the same. When the Nazi spelling squad come out it gets Boring.

Whereas when the personal abuse squad arrives, it really helps the discussion doesn't it.

Dyr · 04-09-2015 01:50PM

Actually what would be interesting would be to maps repeat offenders against family histories.

I reckon you'll find the biggest scrotes actually come from a long, long line of serial offending scummers.

jugger · 04-09-2015 01:50PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Really? When have they ever erred on the side of too little as a matter of interest?

This very thread is about one !!!

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 01:50PM

Boskowski wrote: »

Well the question was about bringing them down or not. Not about absolute numbers.

I thought it was widely recognised that for example Guilianis zero tolerance and 3 strikes has improved New York quite a bit. I'm not terribly well informed though, its just what I picked up from the news.

The alternative view was that more liberal abortions quite literally bred them out over time...

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 01:52PM

jugger wrote: »

This very thread is about one !!!

Nope, it's about police who were unable to deal out the appropriate response. There's no evidence either way on what they were trying to do.

AudreyHepburn · 04-09-2015 01:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

There's so much rubbish in this post I don't know where to start.

Suffice trying the blame for a person wracking some 50 odd convictions by the age of 15 on the Government and the Gardai and anyone else you care to include is woefully naive at best.

But I suppose it's easier just to point fingers at those in power then lay the blame where it belongs.....on these violent little thugs and their parents who either can't or more likely won't control and discipline them.

Boskowski · 04-09-2015 01:54PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The alternative view was that more liberal abortions quite literally bred them out over time...

Bit of a jump there. Not exactly staying on the line of argument or even on your own question.

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 01:54PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Ireland/United-States/Crime

That'd be a no then. Opposite in fact.

No. You would have to look at the American crime rate over time since it has gotten more draconian. Also the Irish crime rate over the same time since it hasn't.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 01:58PM

Boskowski wrote: »

Bit of a jump there. Not exactly staying on the line of argument or even on your own question.

It was you that brought up the reasons for falling crime rates in New York. If we're not allowed to discuss things you bring up could you clearly label them as "NOT FOR DISCUSSION"?

handlemaster · 04-09-2015 01:58PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Whereas when the personal abuse squad arrives, it really helps the discussion doesn't it.

Whats that to do with what I said. Two Guards seriously injured and the poster I referred to states basically its the victims fault. Ifs thats not juvenile I dont know what is. Is that abuse ?

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 02:02PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No. You would have to look at the American crime rate over time since it has gotten more draconian. Also the Irish crime rate over the same time since it hasn't.

Grand, in that case then there is no evidence that a more draconian policing policy would reduce crime... well, none presented yet anyway.

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 02:03PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It was you that brought up the reasons for falling crime rates in New York. If we're not allowed to discuss things you bring up could you clearly label them as "NOT FOR DISCUSSION"?

You probably want to make better arguments for your point then, particularly if the argument is extraordinary. Don't just state it.

(I know it's from freakonomics but most people wouldn't. You can make the point yourself)

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 02:04PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Grand, in that case then there is no evidence that a more draconian policing policy would reduce crime... well, none presented yet anyway.

Actually there would be if the trend line was down in the U.S. and up in Ireland.

Birneybau · 04-09-2015 02:06PM

handlemaster wrote: »

Whats that to do with what I said. Two Guards seriously injured and the poster I referred to states basically its the victims fault. Ifs thats not juvenile I dont know what is. Is that abuse ?

Yeah, you questioned Pappa Dolla's educational qualifications. But don't let the facts get in the way.

Look, I agree that his/her whole point about people beating up Guards because of Irish Water is absolutely ridiculous but I'm not the one casting aspersions on him/her.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 02:09PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You probably want to make better arguments for your point then, particularly if the argument is extraordinary. Don't just state it.

(I know it's from freakonomics but most people wouldn't. You can make the point yourself)

I didn't see any reference for the falling NY crime rates in the first place. Did you? Funny how you're only ready to have a go at the second guy who does something isn't it?
Just because he's never heard of it doesn't mean it's not relevant or easily sourced.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 02:10PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Actually there would be if the trend line was down in the U.S. and up in Ireland.

Pardon? If there was evidence for it then there would be evidence for it?
Not very illuminating that, is it?

braniganl · 04-09-2015 02:17PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

The only way to deal with underage criminals is to penalise their guardians.

Hit them where it hurts, in the pocket.

The onus is then on the guardian to discipline their progeny appropriately or face financial consequences for the misdeeds of their offspring.

Re., scrambler motorbikes, seize & destroy if being ridden on public roads/land without road tax/insurance & once again penalise the guardians financially.

It's not the perfect solution & may be unfair to decent families with a black sheep in the flock, but something needs to be done & this could be a start.

The Guards arent allowed chase lads on scramblers or quad bikes. See it every day in Neilstown. They will be even tearing up and down footpaths, wrong side of the roads outside Ronanstown Garda Station and the guards can't do a thing about it. So very doubtful they'd even know or be able to prove who actually owns the bikes.

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 02:18PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Pardon? If there was evidence for it then there would be evidence for it?
Not very illuminating that, is it?

Ok. The trend line is down in NY. And the U.S.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crime+rate+US+historical

You know this because you gave one spurious reason why you think it was down ( abortions). It's also pretty well known that New York had a crime wave in the 70's and early 80's -- just watching movies from, or set in the era will inform you of that.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 02:23PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Ok. The trend line is down in NY. And the U.S.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crime+rate+US+historical

You know this because you gave one spurious reason why you think it was down ( abortions). It's also pretty well known that New York had a crime wave in the 70's and early 80's -- just watching movies from, or set in the era will inform you of that.

70s cop shows as a data reference? Now there's a first.
And you say it's spurious because... oh wait, you didn't say. Won't? Can't? Who knows.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/crime/crimebycounty/
So Irish crime rates are falling. Despite there being no obvious toughening up of Garda policy. Not a great theory then is it?

Tony EH · 04-09-2015 02:24PM

eviltwin wrote: »

The Irish water thing is a red herring. These problems were there long before IW was conceived.

While these anti-social problems have definitely been around before the creation of Irish Water, the point is still valid.

People have seen dawn raids and arrests of the likes of Paul Murphy and some protesters over the relatively harmless nonsense in Jobstown, because Joan Burton got delayed for a couple of hours and player candy crush and here we have people with 50+ actual convictions walking free around the streets, which we only hear about because a few guards got a beating.

If our Gardai and the judicial system in this country are going to continue the system of in/out roundabout rubbish with these very real criminals, then they deserve all the criticism they get.

No wonder there's no respect for the Gardai, from a lot of different quarters, when they see heavy handed dawn raids for Irish water protesters and then see the likes of these dirtbags walking around laughing at the whole country.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 02:29PM

Tony EH wrote: »

While these anti-social problems have definitely been around before the creation of Irish Water, the point is still valid.

People have seen dawn raids and arrests of the likes of Paul Murphy and some protesters over the relatively harmless nonsense in Jobstown, because Joan Burton got delayed for a couple of hours and player candy crush and here we have people with 50+ actual convictions walking free around the streets, which we only hear about because a few guards got a beating.

If our Gardai and the judicial system in this country are going to continue the system of in/out roundabout rubbish with these very real criminals, then they deserve all the criticism they get.

No wonder there's no respect for the Gardai, from a lot of different quarters, when they see heavy handed dawn raids for Irish water protesters and then see the likes of these dirtbags walking around laughing at the whole country.

While I agree with most of this reasoning for drop in respect for AGS, it doesn't apply to these criminal kids at all. They had no respect for AGS in the first place to lose over recent high-profile Garda brutality, IW private army and excessive force cases.

Carlos Orange · 04-09-2015 02:31PM

They don't punish adults who attacks Gardai that much. Not much chance they will do anything to kids.

Tony EH · 04-09-2015 02:41PM

Boskowski wrote: »

Well the question was about bringing them down or not. Not about absolute numbers.

I thought it was widely recognised that for example Guilianis zero tolerance and 3 strikes has improved New York quite a bit. I'm not terribly well informed though, its just what I picked up from the news.

Crime in Manhattan had been coming down since before Giuliani's time. When he got in, he was largely focused on bull**** minor issues, like graffiti and non-payment of subway tickets.

His biggest contribution to fighting crime was the cleaning up of the likes of 42nd street, when he rezoned the areas for porno theatres and the like, a lot of which were owned by various mafia organisations, whose criminality trickled down to street level.

Giuliani did a bit, but there had been a nationwide drop in crime rates for all types of crime before him.

Tony EH · 04-09-2015 02:48PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

While I agree with most of this reasoning for drop in respect for AGS, it doesn't apply to these criminal kids at all. They had no respect for AGS in the first place to lose over recent high-profile Garda brutality, IW private army and excessive force cases.

I'm certainly not talking about the likes of these kids. Their opinions of the Gardai were already pretty much formed, even if recent events may have, or have not reinforced them.

However, when people see the heavy handed actions the Gardai are capable of when certain members of society are merely delayed for a bit and then see the laissez faire attitude the system has to scumbags with multiple convictions, it's fairly obvious that that disconnect is going to breed some disrespect from many areas.

And I say that as someone who knows people in the Gardai.

KERSPLAT! · 04-09-2015 02:48PM

MOD

Folks, attack the post and not the poster is a well known boards rule, please follow it or we'll be forced to hand out cards/bans.

Back on topic please.

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 02:50PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Ok. The trend line is down in NY. And the U.S.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crime+rate+US+historical

You know this because you gave one spurious reason why you think it was down ( abortions). It's also pretty well known that New York had a crime wave in the 70's and early 80's -- just watching movies from, or set in the era will inform you of that.

Looking at your very own figures more serious crimes are the same or up. Also the figures I gave for the U.S. were from the 80's on. Your Irish fall is from 2008.

You reacted to my link showing significant reductions in crime in the U.S. over two decades -- let the record show -- by ignoring it and then deliberately taking out of context my reference to TV.

Of course TV is going to show reality in crime type shows, it reflects the world around it. But beyond that I was making the point that the drop in the New York crime rate is known by the proverbial dogs in the proverbial street. That's why the original poster could just state it without links or explanation while the extraordinary claim that "abortion did it", demands extraordinary proof since it isn't well known, testified or proven.

In fact the claim that "abortion did it" shows you accepted the premise of a drop in NY crime until you didn't a few posts later.

This kind of argumentation is pointless, if arguing with a cherry picker with limited argumentative powers or knowledge was all that was what boards had to offer it wouldn't last long, and it isn't why I am here, so consider yourself ignored.

Boskowski · 04-09-2015 02:52PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It was you that brought up the reasons for falling crime rates in New York. If we're not allowed to discuss things you bring up could you clearly label them as "NOT FOR DISCUSSION"?

You first made a disconnect between absolute crime rates and falling or rising crime rates and them you jumped out of nowhere to a complete disconnected off hand comment on abortion. I know this is after hours but with the above comment its getting even more ridiculous. I'm out.

spurious · 04-09-2015 02:53PM

Parenting, parenting, parenting.

Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

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