Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

Birneybau · 04-09-2015 01:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

Go wan outta that.

eviltwin · 04-09-2015 01:18PM

carzony wrote: »

Jail isnt an option really, they love prison, all their mates are in prison and eventually they get used to getting free meals and free gym. The only way is to hit their parents hard financially.

Too late I fear when they are teenagers, even if the parents put the foot down they are hardly likely to listen. I'd love to do a study of these young people and find out why they are so disenfranchised and angry that they feel the need to act this way. Maybe they feel that instilling fear into a community gives them respect that is lacking elsewhere.

04-09-2015 01:18PM

eviltwin wrote: »

The Irish water thing is a red herring. These problems were there long before IW was conceived.

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

Bogsnorkler · 04-09-2015 01:21PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

If that truly was the case, would there not be mass civil disobedience/disregard of law ball water protesters?

I call BS, as the vast majority of water protesters don't get pushed around by the guards, as they protest peacefully/ don't abuse people.

eviltwin · 04-09-2015 01:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

In every working class area of Dublin there were these problems going back years so I don't buy the IW excuse. Of course diverting gardai to protecting meters means less gardai to respond to incidents and may be that makes these guys feel free to do what they like but you can't blame gardai for that. I'm pretty sure none joined up to stand around a hole in the ground but they have to go where they are told.

Birneybau · 04-09-2015 01:23PM

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

If that truly was the case, would there not be mass civil disobedience/disregard of law ball water protesters?

I call BS, as the vast majority of water protesters don't get pushed around by the guards, as they protest peacefully/ don't abuse people.

PEACEFUL PROTEST *shakes car, get's right up in Guard's face* PEACEFUL PROTEST.

handlemaster · 04-09-2015 01:24PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have you gone educationally ? Your opinion seems very juveille. When you think the protectors of the law of the land who are unarmed are seriously assaulted you dont say anything about the attackers.

carzony · 04-09-2015 01:25PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Too late I fear when they are teenagers, even if the parents put the foot down they are hardly likely to listen. I'd love to do a study of these young people and find out why they are so disenfranchised and angry that they feel the need to act this way. Maybe they feel that instilling fear into a community gives them respect that is lacking elsewhere.

I think it's too late and no matter what happens these people will cost the taxpayer money in the long run. Saying that, Lots of kids get in trouble when they are young and regret it later in life so who knows...

Boskowski · 04-09-2015 01:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

I don't think it serves any purpose to push ones personal agenda into every single discussion regardless how remote the connection. What's next thats linked to water charges? Seriously it serves your agenda no purpose either, it just gets tiring and annoying.

Scumbags running riot attacking gards. No one wants to talk about water protests in that context, can't you see that?

One eyed Jack · 04-09-2015 01:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

It's absolutely a red herring when antisocial behaviour existed long before any IW or bankers or any of the rest of that nonsense you're trying to use to divert attention away from talking about the actual issue, which is how to tackle antisocial behaviour in communities that have been decimated and people in those communities living their lives in fear of these delinquents. That has nothing to do with bankers or IW.

It has a lot more to do with the fact that these teenagers learn early from their parent's apathy and complete disregard for any form of authority that they don't feel they have to contribute anything to society. They learn a selfish, entitled, lazy attitude from their parents that they never have to contribute, just take what they want, do what they want, because there are no effective sanctions for their behaviour.

04-09-2015 01:31PM

eviltwin wrote: »

In every working class area of Dublin there were these problems going back years so I don't buy the IW excuse. Of course diverting gardai to protecting meters means less gardai to respond to incidents and may be that makes these guys feel free to do what they like but you can't blame gardai for that. I'm pretty sure none joined up to stand around a hole in the ground but they have to go where they are told.

Yeah heroin f*cked up a lot of things. But I look at where I'm from. Back in the 80's it was a council estate with a heroin, unemployment and later, a joy-riding problem. Eventually, people died off, or got sent to prison, some died there. The trouble makers parents died, the trouble makers stopped making trouble and matured. My estate is pretty nice now. Not everyone works, but people look after each other in the community.

I don't think it'll last forever.

I have seen videos that my mam and other community activists have posted. They have not let any water meters in yet. It's a tough battle when the guards never stand up for you.

Whether or not people agree with the water meters, the Gardai should have stayed impartial on this. IW should have hired a private security firm with one or two Gardai overseeing the process, impartially.

I don't know where this is going to end up, but we need the guards to work with the communities themselves to try and get respect NOT FEAR, back into the community.

And respect is a two way street.

mynamejeff · 04-09-2015 01:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah. People have lost respect for the guards now. It's a dangerous state to live in fear instead of respect. When you live in fear, you're far more likely to lash out, but if you have respect, you can have a discussion.

No point having a discussion when one group sees the other side as "subhuman", " scumbags" "toe rags" etc.

Ya I agree its terrible how some sections of our sub society view decent people as walking money to be robbed and law enforcement as targets and outlets for gang violence.

We have policing by consent in Ireland. Unfortunately people like this aren't doing their part so they need to be removed from society to protect their victims from them.

04-09-2015 01:33PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's absolutely a red herring when antisocial behaviour existed long before any IW or bankers or any of the rest of that nonsense you're trying to use to divert attention away from talking about the actual issue, which is how to tackle antisocial behaviour in communities that have been decimated and people in those communities living their lives in fear of these delinquents. That has nothing to do with bankers or IW.

It has a lot more to do with the fact that these teenagers learn early from their parent's apathy and complete disregard for any form of authority that they don't feel they have to contribute anything to society. They learn a selfish, entitled, lazy attitude from their parents that they never have to contribute, just take what they want, do what they want, because there are no effective sanctions for their behaviour.

Is banging them up going to change that?

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 01:33PM

handlemaster wrote: »

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have gone educationally ? Your opinion seems very juveille. When you think the protectors of the law of the land who are unarmed are seriously assaulted you dont say anything about the attackers.

The whole "I don't want to insult you but.." argument which then goes onto an insult is surely some kind of logical fallacy. And his post was written well. Not that I agree with it.

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 01:34PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is banging them up going to change that?

Probably would be more helpful than not banging them up.

handlemaster · 04-09-2015 01:34PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The whole "I don't want to insult you but.." argument which then goes onto an insult is surely some kind of logical fallacy. And his post was written. Not that I agree with it.

The water protestors made me do it your honor

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 01:37PM

handlemaster wrote: »

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have you gone educationally ?

And typo of the day award goes to...

Birneybau · 04-09-2015 01:38PM

handlemaster wrote: »

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have you gone educationally ? Your opinion seems very juveille. When you think the protectors of the law of the land who are unarmed are seriously assaulted you dont say anything about the attackers.

I believe in the intention of your post but the whole irony of 'people in glass houses...' isn't lost on me.

04-09-2015 01:39PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Probably would be more helpful than not banging them up.

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

blade1 · 04-09-2015 01:40PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And typo of the day award goes to...

Birneybau wrote: »

I believe in the intention of your post but the whole irony of 'people in glass houses...' isn't lost on me.

Hahaha I love when that happens!!:D

Boskowski · 04-09-2015 01:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

Seems to work in the USA.

Boskowski · 04-09-2015 01:43PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The USA has lower crime rates than Ireland?

I don't know, I suspect not, but it has brought them down apparently.

eviltwin · 04-09-2015 01:44PM

Boskowski wrote: »

I don't know, I suspect not, but it has brought them down apparently.

Is that just down to the legal system though or other changes to services, supports etc.

04-09-2015 01:45PM

Talk of fear of the Gardai the last few pages is utter bollocks in all honesty. I grew up in a working class environment and never knew a copper by name and they never knew me. Wanna know why? It's because I wasn't an absolute scrote bag causing a nuisance on my estate. Played football, hung out with mates in our houses playing FIFA or chilled at the community centre, went on adventures down by the canal. Youngsters today have more at their disposal than I had, every area has an astro pitch these days but still "there's nothing to do". That doesn't wash with me.

One eyed Jack · 04-09-2015 01:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is banging them up going to change that?

Where did I even suggest that?

FWIW btw, there are Gardai (Community Liaison Officers) and all sorts of organisations trying to work with these delinquents to give them a chance to make a better life for themselves, but the minority who have no interest in making a better life for themselves and have no interest in contributing to society should be made an example of before they have a chance to ruin the lives of those who actually do want to work with Gardai and the people in their local communities to improve their areas.

Your nonsense about mutual respect is just that. The minority like those delinquents that assaulted Gardai have no respect for anyone, they simply don't care, so they should be made to care, by force if necessary. Some people simply don't understand any other way.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 01:46PM

Boskowski wrote: »

I don't know, I suspect not, but it has brought them down apparently.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Ireland/United-States/Crime

Total crimes per 1000
Ireland Ranked 40th. 20.67
United States Ranked 22nd. 41.29 Twice as much as Ireland

That'd be a no then. Opposite in fact.

handlemaster · 04-09-2015 01:46PM

Birneybau wrote: »

I believe in the intention of your post but the whole irony of 'people in glass houses...' isn't lost on me.

You got me there. I have a very small mobile screen and I dont have time to go back over everything I write or for that matter interested in doing the same. When the Nazi spelling squad come out it gets Boring.

carzony · 04-09-2015 01:47PM

Problem is most people in Ireland seems to laugh at the Gardai/legal system even for 'minor' crimes.

look at the amount of people banned from driving every year which is a huge number and still most of them continue to drive regardless, literally 2-3 hundred thousand cars on the road with no nct/tax and lets not forget the number of people refusing to pay fines and do a 'handy' hour in prison to write it off.

If you can't get the basic offences right then for get about the rest...

04-09-2015 01:47PM

Boskowski wrote: »

Seems to work in the USA.

Try again...

http://www.citypages.com/news/minnesota-criminal-recidivism-rate-is-nations-worst-6543343

"Catching the guy and prosecuting him is really important work, but if we don't do anything with that individual after we've got him, then shame on us. If all that effort goes to waste and we just open the doors five years later, and it's the same guy walking out the door and the same criminal thinking, we've failed in our mission."

Here's a government page: http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx

76% recidivism within 5 years.

Dyr · 04-09-2015 01:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

I do know that recidivism rates for people who are locked up are around zero

the problem is we let them out again

Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

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