"Haunting Image Of Drowned Boy Sums Up Consequences Of 'The Syrian War'"

_Kaiser_ · 04-09-2015 10:35AM

OK first off, as tragic as the situation is for the children involved and those who don't make it as far as European borders, this current situation is getting out of hand.

EU leaders have been about ten steps behind the situation on the ground all along anyway, but the way this photo of the little boy is being used to push the notion that we should throw open the gates and shout "come one, come all" is frankly disgraceful and dangerous. The reality is that children do get hurt and die in these situations and as terrible as that is, NOBODY can save them all!

The other side of course is how we're seeing just how undemocratic the EU is again. We saw it already with the Greek situation this year, and now we're seeing it again with Hungary facing pressure for following the rules that have been set down, and Germany deciding it's just going to "suspend" the Dublin Agreement and use this as a way to force quotas on the rest of the member states. This of course ignores the very real and entirely justified concerns that many of these member states and their citizens have with this whole idea, not least being the very real security issues that we've already seen in numerous reports and of course the experiences of the UK.

Back home of course we have our (outgoing) Government deciding that we'll once again be the "Good boys and girls of Europe" and take as many of these people as we're told to - regardless of the thousands already in the DP system or our own escalating problems with homelessness and housing shortages that are pushing prices (rent and purchase) ever higher. Who's going to pay for housing, feeding and educating these people, and what skills do they have that we need? We have enough problems with people trying to survive on low-paid unskilled jobs and social welfare handouts, without bringing in potentially thousands more at a time when most of this country is still waiting to feel the effects of Enda's "Recovery".

But the thing that's really pissing me off about this situation is how the concerns of those everyday normal people who disagree with the free-for-all agenda that's being pushed aren't being listened to at all by our supposed "Leaders" as they rush to save the World (at the expense of those at home who DO have a right and "entitlement" to support that is now being diverted). The debate on social media or the media in general is no better with any dissent to the "think of the children" plan being ignored, shouted down or twisted with claims of racism or xenophobia and other such nonsense being peddled to discredit these very legitimate concerns.

Of course, a few years from now, when Europe finds itself struggling to support a few million "refugees"/economic migrants and the economic and social consequences of that - to say nothing of the massive differences and attitudes in culture, behaviour and religions that will not integrate easily (if at all) - it'll be too late to do anything about it... but I guess as long as some get that warm fuzzy feeling from doing the "right" thing that's all that matters!

foggy_lad · 04-09-2015 10:36AM

conorhal wrote: »

BS?

Explain please on what you base your figure of 10 to 40 thousand exactly, or are you plucking fugures out of your arse like the rest of Europe?

We have a housing crisis at the moment, that I'm sure you can't deny. Also undeniable is the fact that over 50% of social housing in Dublin is allocated to foreign nationals and asylum seekers. The figure nationally is one third of all social housing. So pretending tha jobs, wages and housing weren't effected is the BS.

We have 400 asylum seekers that have been given leave to remain in direct provision because housing can't be found for them but we have a minister on this morning telling us that we will be taking more who seems to share you sunny optimism and utter lack of joined up thinking. If we can't house them where are we going to put an aditional 40,000?
And ask yourself this, what kind of housing crisis would there be if we weren't handing out gaffs to all commers?

Finally, the numbers being spat out are lies. We agreed to 400, we added an aditional 600 so we agreeed to a thousand, now that's two thousand. Of course nobody wants to mention the expected 4,000 that will appear out of thin air to apply this year, so really we are talking about 6,000 asylum seekers. It's not quite the hights of 11,000 a year at the hight of the boom, but then again we had an economy at the time. Lets not forget of course that after family reunfication rights are excercised the numbers will rise quite a bit. On average family reunification admits 3 family members for each asylum seeker, so we're actually talking 24,000 people.

I wonder what next years numbers will look like

Just after hearing a poor gypsy type woman on the radio pleading to be let into the west because her and her husband want a better life for them and their children and then when they are given a small house, big enough for them to be comfortable they want to have the rest of their family brought over to be with them!

This is nothing more than an invasion of gypsy types the same as the Roma people and it will end with manufactured slums of people all over Europe full of these violent men who treat women and children as their personal belongings.

I welcome with genuinely open arms the genuine people who are fleeing tyranny and who are in danger of death torture or worse in their home countries, I was delighted when the Government of the day announced a second and subsequent groups of Bosnian refugees in the early 90s and will be delighted when a reasonable number of Syrian refugees are brought from the Syrian border to a place of safety in Ireland.

But in the recent footage all we have seen are money hungry peasants who are not in any danger or in fear for theirsafety in their own countries but who have decided to organise and hold Europe to ransom to get what they want which is to get to the west and get money jobs and benefits!

Ask yourselves this question, How would the American Authorities handle an onslaught of Mexican migrants attacking the border day after day for months?

They would see it as an attack on the United states and lock down the border and shoot anyone attempting to cross over!

JustTheOne · 04-09-2015 10:39AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK first off, as tragic as the situation is for the children involved and those who don't make it as far as European borders, this current situation is getting out of hand.

EU leaders have been about ten steps behind the situation on the ground all along anyway, but the way this photo of the little boy is being used to push the notion that we should throw open the gates and shout "come one, come all" is frankly disgraceful and dangerous. The reality is that children do get hurt and die in these situations and as terrible as that is, NOBODY can save them all!

The other side of course is how we're seeing just how undemocratic the EU is again. We saw it already with the Greek situation this year, and now we're seeing it again with Hungary facing pressure for following the rules that have been set down, and Germany deciding it's just going to "suspend" the Dublin Agreement and use this as a way to force quotas on the rest of the member states. This of course ignores the very real and entirely justified concerns that many of these member states and their citizens have with this whole idea, not least being the very real security issues that we've already seen in numerous reports and of course the experiences of the UK.

Back home of course we have our (outgoing) Government deciding that we'll once again be the "Good boys and girls of Europe" and take as many of these people as we're told to - regardless of the thousands already in the DP system or our own escalating problems with homelessness and housing shortages that are pushing prices (rent and purchase) ever higher. Who's going to pay for housing, feeding and educating these people, and what skills do they have that we need? We have enough problems with people trying to survive on low-paid unskilled jobs and social welfare handouts, without bringing in potentially thousands more at a time when most of this country is still waiting to feel the effects of Enda's "Recovery".

But the thing that's really pissing me off about this situation is how the concerns of those everyday normal people who disagree with the free-for-all agenda that's being pushed aren't being listened to at all by our supposed "Leaders" as they rush to save the World (at the expense of those at home who DO have a right and "entitlement" to support that is now being diverted). The debate on social media or the media in general is no better with any dissent to the "think of the children" plan being ignored, shouted down or twisted with claims of racism or xenophobia and other such nonsense being peddled to discredit these very legitimate concerns.

Of course, a few years from now, when Europe finds itself struggling to support a few million "refugees"/economic migrants and the economic and social consequences of that - to say nothing of the massive differences and attitudes in culture, behaviour and religions that will not integrate easily (if at all) - it'll be too late to do anything about it... but I guess as long as some get that warm fuzzy feeling from doing the "right" thing that's all that matters!

Hate to break it to you but the only party who objects to the situation is the new anti immigration party who have been described as racists.

Sinn Fein Paul Murphy fianna fail fianna Gael Labour all have said we need to take in more.

Nodin · 04-09-2015 10:44AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just after hearing a poor gypsy type woman on the radio pleading to be let into the west because her and her husband want a better life for them and their children and then when they are given a small house, big enough for them to be comfortable they want to have the rest of their family brought over to be with them!

That would be the Syrian woman, who, having spent years in camps, just wants to get to Germany and work, have a house and "help others" who was on RTE.

Tinder Surprise · 04-09-2015 10:45AM

KOS (Greece) 1st Sept 2015:

a fathers relief at finding his children after losing sight of them in the dark on the dangerous crossing.

ask yourself how bad it must be, and the sheer desperation to put your family at such risk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBhkaSeTxUg

BoJack Horseman · 04-09-2015 10:45AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's hardly Germany's fault that Hungary is located nearer Turkey and the Med.

The German declared free-for-all certainly isn't Hungary's fault.

Germany gave their carte Blanche, but cared not a jot for the nitty-gritty of getting the masses to them.

Great job.

I presume your logic is at least consistent and you are arguing that we too should welcome them in huge numbers and fly them in.

Nope.

Simply suggesting the win-win-win option open to Germany.

- Germany wants the people.
- The people want into Germany
- The in-between transit nations like Hungary & Macedonia don't want the pain & expense of dealing with Germany's carte Blanche.

Everyone would get what they want!

And its not like airlifting refugees hasn't been done many many times before

Christ, its actually a great idea!

_Kaiser_ · 04-09-2015 10:45AM

JustTheOne wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but the only party who objects to the situation is the new anti immigration party who have been described as racists.

Sinn Fein Paul Murphy fianna fail fianna Gael Labour all have said we need to take in more.

Of course they have.. because "popular" opinion has decided that we should and these are (mainly) career politicians who are about 6 months from a GE (at best) and they want to be re-elected! They'll say anything if they think it'll help that cause.

You do highlight the bigger issue though - that on many of these important issues there really IS no difference between our established parties and increasingly a justifiable sense among many people that there is no-one to represent them!

04-09-2015 10:46AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

This is nothing more than an invasion of gypsy types...

So that's your summation of the boys who drowned...part of the "invasion of gypsy types".

That's fairly ugly.

conorhal · 04-09-2015 10:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, forgive my ignorance...whose lives were saved in Rotherham and Paris?

Not the vunerable and exploited teenage girls that's for sure. But you're exemplifying the kind of silly emotive short term thinking of the government. Picture for yourself the parisian suburbian banlieues of Dublin in 40 years time.
We seem determined torun this country into the ground.

Eugene Norman · 04-09-2015 10:48AM

conorhal wrote: »

Not the vunerable and exploited teenage girls that's for sure. But you're exemplifying the kind of silly emotive short term thinking of the government. Picture for yourself the parisian suburbian banlieues of Dublin in 40 years time.
We seem determined torun this country into the ground.

That's partly the fault of the French. Notice that Ireland doesn't have racial ghettos? Let's keep it that way.

04-09-2015 10:48AM

conorhal wrote: »

Not the vunerable and exploited teenage girls that's for sure. But you're exemplifying the kind of silly emotive short term thinking of the government. Picture for yourself the parisian suburbian banlieues of Dublin in 40 years time.
We seem determined torun this country into the ground.

Ah, so it was really connected at all, you just wanted to get in some reference to shady Muslims. I mean, those kids, they could have been a bit rapey like the crowd in Rotherham...

The Backwards Man · 04-09-2015 10:50AM

I'm sweating on someone to suggest there'll be Sharia Law in Finglas within x amount of years for a full house on my 'send the buggers back' bingo card.

JustTheOne · 04-09-2015 10:50AM

conorhal wrote: »

Not the vunerable and exploited teenage girls that's for sure. But you're exemplifying the kind of silly emotive short term thinking of the government. Picture for yourself the parisian suburbian banlieues of Dublin in 40 years time.
We seem determined torun this country into the ground.

Jesus Christ.

No Irish people are rapists only foreigners.

04-09-2015 10:52AM

JustTheOne wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

No Irish people are rapists only foreigners.

I think he wanted to drop in a reference to Muslims and paedophilia...but doesn't want any silly emotive thinking...:eek:

NIMAN · 04-09-2015 10:54AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Of course they have.. because "popular" opinion has decided that we should and these are (mainly) career politicians who are about 6 months from a GE (at best) and they want to be re-elected! They'll say anything if they think it'll help that cause.

You do highlight the bigger issue though - that on many of these important issues there really IS no difference between our established parties and increasingly a justifiable sense among many people that there is no-one to represent them!

Politicians will do what they think the people want them to do, end of.

It's wasn't long ago Cameron basically said they wouldn't be taking any more in, cue him being asked again after the dead child is photographed on the beach. Do you really think his spin people would allow him to come out and stick to his guns once that photo was seen? Any politician who came out yesterday and said "I'm sorry but that kids death changes nothing, we can't take any more in" would have been the hate figure for the entire world and the social media lynch mobs. Career over.

conorhal · 04-09-2015 10:58AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

That's partly the fault of the French. Notice that Ireland doesn't have racial ghettos? Let's keep it that way.

You've not been out near Tyrrellstownship lately have you. We're building them, it's just that we're a little behind the curve, but don't worry our government is eager to ensure we catch up.

orubiru · 04-09-2015 10:58AM

JustTheOne wrote: »

We have people sleeping rough we should look after our own first.

Has to be one of the most uneducated, ridiculous idiotic comments to come out of this situation.

People sleeping rough have options to be put up in hostels or b and bs.

Most of the time they refuse help through addiction etc .

They choose that life.

Do kids drowning choose that life?

Yes but your appeal to emotion is equally uneducated and ridiculous.

You are quite right that something should be done to help but you are ignoring the economic, social and political realities of providing that assistance.

When someone says "we have people sleeping rough we should look after our own first" I don't see how you can dismiss this as an invalid point of view. I really don't see how it's "idiotic".

There are a number of people in Ireland without homes, without jobs, without education, without opportunities, and without prospects. Any proposal to increase that number should be closely scrutinized and should be analyzed rationally and logically.

"People sleeping rough have options to be put up in hostels or b and bs. Most of the time they refuse help through addiction etc . They choose that life. Do kids drowning choose that life?"

This is the opposite of a logical approach to the situation. It's just an emotional reaction. We shouldn't "look after our own" first because many of them have brought this on themselves?

Yes, every emotion tells us that we should save the children because they didn't choose this life and we can't just stand by and watch it happen. The problem is that there is a cost associated with solving every problem and many people will believe that some problems should be solved before tackling others. That's not idiotic at all.

We need to solve every problem. I think we can all agree on that. Nobody should be homeless and dead kids shouldn't be washing up on beaches. Unfortunately, attempting to fix this often means allocating finite resources and prioritizing. Appealing to emotion doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Neyite · 04-09-2015 11:00AM

It's very easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to this photo. I did. My son is the same age as the boy and even sleeps the same way, all curled up. I was near to tears for days even thinking about it. I still am.

But one photo shouldn't mean that we should just make it an open border free for all. It should mean that we lobby for our governments to find real ways to help with the crisis, and to do what we can as a nation. So that we can look back and say that we are proud of what we did to help.

If people are getting in rickety boats to get from Libya/ turkey to land in Kos or another part of the EU shores, then maybe an approach from several angles might be better:

Have EU processing centres on the shores of the origin country, or for example in Turkey, so they don't have to go in boats or if they do, they get rounded up and brought back to the processing centre.

Stiff sentences and confiscation of vessels for those who traffick. Make the stakes far too high for both trafficker and trafficked people to risk it.

Maybe if children are getting caught up in the conflict that temporary relocation to foster homes away from the war zones, like they did during the war in the UK and Germany.

Provide safe transit for those who do get correctly processed to their allocated EU country.

Work on political ways to end the wars?

I admit that I know very little about the conflict, or the resultant crisis, so I'm sure that my ideas are full of pitfalls. We cant fix this entirely, but we can help a little bit more I'm sure.

NIMAN · 04-09-2015 11:01AM

Why were there not the same calls to fly in starving children and families from Ethiopia back in the 80s?

foggy_lad · 04-09-2015 11:02AM

Nodin wrote: »

That would be the Syrian woman, who, having spent years in camps, just wants to get to Germany and work, have a house and "help others" who was on RTE.

Yes but as it was radio I was unable to see what proof they had that she was Syrian, was it written in Biro on her hand? Do Syrians have some distinguishing feature that sets them aside or makes them identifiable from other economic illegal immigrants?

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

KOS (Greece) 1st Sept 2015:

a fathers relief at finding his children after losing sight of them in the dark on the dangerous crossing.

ask yourself how bad it must be, and the sheer desperation to put your family at such risk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBhkaSeTxUg

He cared little for them when he set them out to sea in a small boat even though they were already safe from torture and death in Turkey!

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The German declared free-for-all certainly isn't Hungary's fault.

Germany gave their carte Blanche, but cared not a jot for the nitty-gritty of getting the masses to them.

Great job.

Nope.

Simply suggesting the win-win-win option open to Germany.

- Germany wants the people.
- The people want into Germany
- The in-between transit nations like Hungary & Macedonia don't want the pain & expense of dealing with Germany's carte Blanche.

Everyone would get what they want!

And its not like airlifting refugees hasn't been done many many times before

Christ, its actually a great idea!

My only issue with train loads of illegal migrants crossing Europe into camps in Germany would be historic.

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'm sweating on someone to suggest there'll be Sharia Law in Finglas within x amount of years for a full house on my 'send the buggers back' bingo card.

It's already available in Aldi/Lidl on Parnell street and you can use the vouchers out of the papers.

PropJoe10 · 04-09-2015 11:03AM

I think it'd be only fair for the US to take the majority of these refugees, seeing as its their interventionist policies in the Middle East that has caused this crisis. Not saying we shouldn't be taking them, but this crisis is living proof of the saying "Don't meddle in countries and cultures that you don't understand".

Nodin · 04-09-2015 11:06AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes but as it was radio I was unable to see what proof they had that she was Syrian, was it written in Biro on her hand? Do Syrians have some distinguishing feature that sets them aside or makes them identifiable from other economic illegal immigrants?
.

But you'd enough proof to label her a "gypsy"? And why were you distorting what she said? Syrians speak Arabic, have a Syrian accent etc and so on. I realise that they may sound all the same to you, but others who speak the language can distinguish the differences.

Hagar7 · 04-09-2015 11:22AM

asherbassad wrote: »

It does seem extraordinarily convenient that this image of a child is making the headlines and swirling around the world whipping up waves of emotion. Allegedly the child's parents also perished yet some news report instantly knew the child was three.
Why no photos of pregnant women fleeing the carnage in Syria miscarrying at the side of the road? Why no images of 4 year olds dashing to the trees with their mothers as tear gas canisters rain down all over the place from Hungarian border "guards"....you know....those who begged for safe passage in 1956, a mere 12 years after they sent thousands of Magyar gypsies to Birkenau, now here they are....members of the "EU" whose shining credo is to protect the weak and uphold the highest standards of human rights and they're building razor wire and chasing women and toddlers and terrorising them out of the place where they might rest for a little while away from the horror they've not only escaped but have had to endure just to get a somewhere safe.

But of course....there could be a terrorist in that boat that capsized whereby everyone died so toughen up and to hell with the weak and wretched.

Many good points there bud,one more for you tae ponder though,why no similar worldwide condemnation regarding the IDF soldiers who murdered the 4 wee boys playing on the beach,to me,that was every bit as bad as what happened 2 days ago.

Hagar7 · 04-09-2015 11:25AM

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I think it'd be only fair for the US to take the majority of these refugees, seeing as its their interventionist policies in the Middle East that has caused this crisis. Not saying we shouldn't be taking them, but this crisis is living proof of the saying "Don't meddle in countries and cultures that you don't understand".

We here in Scotland want tae take many of the families in but are being stopped by that bastard Cameron.:(

BattleCorp · 04-09-2015 11:43AM

Neyite wrote: »

Stiff sentences and confiscation of vessels for those who traffick. Make the stakes far too high for both trafficker and trafficked people to risk it.

***Beware, controversial opinion being voiced***

It seems that people fleeing from those war torn areas are genuine refugees because they are fleeing for their lives. Because of this, a lot of people think that those refugees should be looked after in some shape or form. I'm not saying open borders, but some sort of assistance so that they don't die like animals. I think lots of people agree on that.

That said, if they are fleeing persecution, aren't the people traffickers helping them in some way? If they successfully help a refugee get from a war torn country to a safe haven, aren't they doing good?

I'm not talking about scumbags who leave people to die in the back of trucks or send them out on a dangerous death wish boat trip, but some traffickers are doing good, aren't they?

tonycascarino · 04-09-2015 11:52AM

Hagar7 wrote: »

We here in Scotland want tae take many of the families in but are being stopped by that bastard Cameron.:(

I'd say you're speaking for yourself really. Reading most comments from British people in recent days the vast majority of them are sick of the influx of migrants & worried that if they continue to take these type of migrants that their identity will be eroded sooner rather than later. They are also afraid of the Muslim influx of the majority of these migrants. Even the Slovak & Hungarian PM in the last 2 days have expressed their worry that Europe will fast become Muslim if these waves of migrants do not stop. All fair worries in my view. This situation is far more complex than just giving a knee jerk reaction to a dead child on a beach.

PropJoe10 · 04-09-2015 12:02PM

Hagar7 wrote: »

We here in Scotland want tae take many of the families in but are being stopped by that bastard Cameron.:(

I don't understand Cameron's attitude towards this. This is a matter of helping fellow human beings that are in dire, dire trouble. Surely a no-brainer for developed countries like Britain.

Alexis Sanchez · 04-09-2015 12:06PM

Hagar7 wrote: »

We here in Scotland want tae take many of the families in but are being stopped by that bastard Cameron.:(

That's because the majority of Scotsmen are naive liberals and they're too ignorant to learn from the mistakes Sweden made.

If you want to know what an independent Scotland will look like, just look at Sweden: multi-ethnic ghettos with high unemployment, high drug abuse, high alcohol abuse, rampant, authoritarian-style political correctness and media censorship of political parties that don't conform to the liberal agenda.

An anti-immigration party called the Swedish Democrats are on-course to become the largest party in the country because of the catastrophic multicultural project the Swedes undertook.

I hope Scotland does get independence, so they can get down to destroying their own country without taking the English and Welsh down with them.

If the Scots are desperate for some folk from the Middle East/South Asia, perhaps they could take all those Pakistani child grooming gangs off of the hands of the English. I reckon they'll be glad to see the back of them.

Infini · 04-09-2015 12:08PM

tonycascarino wrote: »

Reading most comments from British people in recent days the vast majority of them are sick of the influx of migrants & worried that if they continue to take migrants that their identity will be eroded sooner rather than later. They are also afraid of the Muslim influx of the majority of these migrants. Even the Slovak & Hungarian PM have expressed their worry that Europe will fast become Muslim if these waves of migrants does not stop. All fair worries in my view. This situation is far more complex than just giving a knee jerk reaction to a dead child on a beach.

There are some serious worries about this of course. The only thing is that Europe would never become "Muslim" as such but if it isnt made very clear to those that they MUST assimilate into European culture then theres a real risk an increase in the types of race riots breaking out down the road that happened in England a few years back. Fact is Islam has some serious issues expecially with some people that are completely counter to European Values and some people see signs of this and are afraid it will get worse. There's sympathy of course for the plight of people but theres real fears that taking them in will lead to worse down the road.

Said it before the only way to stop this is at its source and its means occupying Syria at this point with a UN force. Regardless of whats happened before simple truth is a country has been destroyed in all but name and if it spreads any further like into Turkey itself it could become real nasty.

_Kaiser_ · 04-09-2015 12:10PM

Alexis Sanchez wrote: »

That's because the majority of Scotsmen are naive liberals and they're too ignorant to learn from the mistakes Sweden made.

If you want to know what an independent Scotland will look like, just look at Sweden: multi-ethnic ghettos with high unemployment, high drug abuse, high alcohol abuse, rampant, authoritarian-style political correctness and media censorship of political parties that don't conform to the liberal agenda.

Hmm.. that description reminds me of somewhere a little west of Scotland too!

All that place is missing is the ghettos, but it seems the local Justice Minister is busy making sure that'll happen yet.

"Haunting Image Of Drowned Boy Sums Up Consequences Of 'The Syrian War'"

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