Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

The Rape of Lucretia · 31-08-2015 01:18PM

awec wrote: »

The warm ups are definitely used for players to prove themselves. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen players tried in different positions and different combinations tried. If it was just about game time and fitness the majority of the team would have remained unchanged each match.

Did we really see players tried in different positions though that might eventuate in our first choice selection for a serious game ? I dont think so. We saw assorted backup options, utility players checks, experience being given to players with players around them they might not normally play with, and managed optimising of fitness and match time training.

Where would you feel we saw players genuinely competing for a place where Joe had in his mind, that how each performed would determine the eventual selection ?

Combinations are being tried by definition, since he simply isnt going to play his 1st choice team 3 games on the trot. But I dont think you can conclude from that that players are really being assessed one versus another.

blackwarrior · 31-08-2015 01:19PM

awec wrote: »

The warm ups are definitely used for players to prove themselves. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen players tried in different positions and different combinations tried. If it was just about game time and fitness the majority of the team would have remained unchanged each match.

Joe Schmidt: "We've only had three match windows with the team, so it (Saturday) is very important because we've had eight or nine weeks of training to have a look at players, and those big windows are probably the litmus test," he said.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2015/0831/724599-schmidt-to-be-forensic-in-squad-selection/

bilston · 31-08-2015 01:24PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No one was given a game or even two to prove or not prove themselves. What we saw on the pitch is only a tiny part of the picture determining selection. If selection expectation is based on what we saw in the last 3 games then it will be very out of kilter with the true selections.

Bowe has been first choice for six or seven years, if he has been left iut becauae of poor form I'd have expected him to have been given more opportunity to return to form.

total former · 31-08-2015 01:30PM

If Bowe has been miles off the pace in training for the whole summer, then there might be a possibility of him being dropped.

It's very, very unlikely though.

ongarite · 31-08-2015 01:32PM

Is the same source that said last week that Healy was definitely out as he hadn't been cleared to play/recovered from injury in time?

awec · 31-08-2015 01:32PM

It makes no sense. If he was miles off the pace he wouldn't have been subbed after 40 minutes for Ulster.

Zzippy · 31-08-2015 01:38PM

total former wrote: »

If Bowe has been miles off the pace in training for the whole summer, then there might be a possibility of him being dropped.

It's very, very unlikely though.

Can't remember where I read it, but I do remember seeing something to that effect, that he wasn't impressing in training. Could be just another BS rumour though...

Speaking of which, where are the bloody leaks lads?!!!

smiley_face · 31-08-2015 01:39PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Did we really see players tried in different positions though that might eventuate in our first choice selection for a serious game ? I dont think so. We saw assorted backup options, utility players checks, experience being given to players with players around them they might not normally play with, and managed optimising of fitness and match time training.

Where would you feel we saw players genuinely competing for a place where Joe had in his mind, that how each performed would determine the eventual selection ?

Combinations are being tried by definition, since he simply isnt going to play his 1st choice team 3 games on the trot. But I dont think you can conclude from that that players are really being assessed one versus another.

Tuohy Vs Ryan.
I think Tuohy played himself out of the squad, and Ryan played himself into it.

Edit: Arguably Zebo played himself into the squad, but I expected him to make it anyway.
Also Trimble and D Kearney proved their capability to come up to the mark.
And Earls after the first match really helped him make the squad, while Fitzgerald's performances were luke warm at best (no pun intended), so may not have helped him much, likewise Bowe's performance.

total former · 31-08-2015 01:39PM

awec wrote: »

It makes no sense. If he was miles off the pace he wouldn't have been subbed after 40 minutes for Ulster.

I agree, it doesn't really add up. (Unless he was completely out of the running before the Ulster game, but that's even less likely).

padser · 31-08-2015 01:50PM

awec wrote: »

The warm ups are definitely used for players to prove themselves. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen players tried in different positions and different combinations tried. If it was just about game time and fitness the majority of the team would have remained unchanged each match.

I'm sorry but that statement really doesn't stack up.

Assume for a minute the games are all about match fitness and sharpness (ie acquiring it).

What you would expect to see is little attention paid to positions and continuity of selection and more attention paid to getting x player onto the pitch for y amount of time. (Which will vary between different players as they will have different requirements).

There is no way to use the fact that we see different combos and lack of contuity in selection as evidence either for or against the proposition that these games carry little weight in terms of informing a coach on the form of a player.

stephen_n · 31-08-2015 01:51PM

Could easily see Bowe not making the starting 15 but can't imagine any way he'd be dropped from the squad.

31-08-2015 01:54PM

From PR. Feel free to ignore, rubbish, disregard, etc.

"Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9. No room for Marty Moore, Boss, McFadden. Luke Fitz and Dave K are in. Tadgh Furlong is on the plane."

Buer · 31-08-2015 01:59PM

Can't remember who but there was an article this morning that alluded to Furlong being very much in the mix to go as a third tighthead behind Ross and White with Moore unlikely to make the cut.

....Just checked...it was the O'Connor piece in the Indo suggesting he's potentially going to go and Bent stay at home. Same piece that discussed Earls as having a facial injury.

bilston · 31-08-2015 02:00PM

Tara Small Yawn wrote: »

From PR. Feel free to ignore, rubbish, disregard, etc.

"Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9. No room for Marty Moore, Boss, McFadden. Luke Fitz and Dave K are in. Tadgh Furlong is on the plane."

So hang on, if they are specifically saying that Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9 that would suggest FOUR half backs!

I can't believe that!

aimee1 · 31-08-2015 02:03PM

bilston wrote: »

So hang on, if they are specifically saying that Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9 that would suggest FOUR half backs!

I can't believe that!

mother of all curve balls if thats the case

case885 · 31-08-2015 02:03PM

Furlong would surely have started the Welsh game if he is looked as backup to Ross. I really hope earls makes it, he's the kinda player you want to spring from the bench to change things up.

sydthebeat · 31-08-2015 02:04PM

Tara Small Yawn wrote: »

From PR. Feel free to ignore, rubbish, disregard, etc.

"Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9. No room for Marty Moore, Boss, McFadden. Luke Fitz and Dave K are in. Tadgh Furlong is on the plane."

doesnt really explain anything though
doesnt say if jackson is in... the only controversial thing there is bringing 2 9's

wittycynic · 31-08-2015 02:06PM

bilston wrote: »

So hang on, if they are specifically saying that Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9 that would suggest FOUR half backs!

I can't believe that!

Don't think that precludes bringing Jackson as a 3rd fly half. Of course it would tally with the "Paddy Jackson not going" rumours.

total former · 31-08-2015 02:13PM

I thought it was a bad omen for Bent that Furlong was on the bench on Saturday (and that Bent only got two games off the bench), but surely if you're bringing three tightheads, you'd take the punt on Moore?

Zuffer · 31-08-2015 02:15PM

My theories:

On the delay of the announcement, I think it is to help out the print media. The IRFU like to keep good relations with the media. See, for example, the fact that Luke Fitz played 13 against Wales at the weekend. All the papers had that news in the morning. To me, it looked like an official leak. I'd guess we will see surprisingly accurate 'predicted' squads in the papers tomorrow morning.

On surprise that Bowe or some other favourite might not travel, one important thing is being forgotten. 31 players cannot take the field against France. The most important determinant of who will be in the 31 is the 15 players that Joe wants to start against France. It's all very well to say that Bowe is a great player (he is) who has lots of credit in the bank (he does). But if Joe has already decided that he wants to start (for example) Earls at 11 and DK at 14, then taking Bowe becomes a luxury in a very crowded position.

vienne86 · 31-08-2015 02:15PM

total former wrote: »

I thought it was a bad omen for Bent that Furlong was on the bench on Saturday (and that Bent only got two games off the bench), but surely if you're bringing three tightheads, you'd take the punt on Moore?

I would presume there will be a punt taken on Healy. But Moore as well? Well we just don't know what is going on in camp. Furlong would be a surprise to me - I would have thought Bent would travel.

The plot thickens.

.ak · 31-08-2015 02:24PM

bilston wrote: »

So hang on, if they are specifically saying that Madigan is the 2nd 10 and 3rd 9 that would suggest FOUR half backs!

I can't believe that!

Could mean Jackson is 3rd choice.

alias no.9 · 31-08-2015 02:26PM

Zuffer wrote: »

My theories:

On the delay of the announcement, I think it is to help out the print media. The IRFU like to keep good relations with the media. See, for example, the fact that Luke Fitz played 13 against Wales at the weekend. All the papers had that news in the morning. To me, it looked like an official leak. I'd guess we will see surprisingly accurate 'predicted' squads in the papers tomorrow morning.

On surprise that Bowe or some other favourite might not travel, one important thing is being forgotten. 31 players cannot take the field against France. The most important determinant of who will be in the 31 is the 15 players that Joe wants to start against France. It's all very well to say that Bowe is a great player (he is) who has lots of credit in the bank (he does). But if Joe has already decided that he wants to start (for example) Earls at 11 and DK at 14, then taking Bowe becomes a luxury in a very crowded position.

People have also been speculating on the shootout between Fitz and Earls and while that may be real, looking at both of them at 13 may be to make sure there are multiple remaining options in the squad in the instance that Bowe were to be dropped. Bowe had switched positions against England in the 6N to cover 13 when Jones was brought on for Payne. If Bowe has been dropped, expect to see one or both of Fitz and Earls in the matchday squads for big games.

total former · 31-08-2015 02:31PM

vienne86 wrote: »

I would presume there will be a punt taken on Healy. But Moore as well? Well we just don't know what is going on in camp. Furlong would be a surprise to me - I would have thought Bent would travel.

The plot thickens.

I've thought all along that Bent was going regardless, but I can't get my head around Furlong being included on Saturday.

Bringing Furlong and not Bent would mean we would have to also bring a third loosehead (Kilcoyne), i.e. a six-prop strategy, which means we have to make room somewhere else.

Unless White has been leapfrogged by Furlong...

Buer · 31-08-2015 02:37PM

case885 wrote: »

Furlong would surely have started the Welsh game if he is looked as backup to Ross. I really hope earls makes it, he's the kinda player you want to spring from the bench to change things up.

Furlong is just back from injury himself. He injured his thigh at the start of training camp and only came back in to full training last week so may not have been in a position to start.

awec · 31-08-2015 02:41PM

Just heard from a reliable source that Sexton has missed the cut...

Noopti · 31-08-2015 02:45PM

awec wrote: »

Just heard from a reliable source that Sexton has missed the cut...

A mate of mine who delivers coffee to Carton House told me he saw Ian Madigan practicing on the scrum machine out the back of the hotel. Make of that what you will.

bilston · 31-08-2015 02:46PM

wittycynic wrote: »

Don't think that precludes bringing Jackson as a 3rd fly half. Of course it would tally with the "Paddy Jackson not going" rumours.

Why would Madigan specifically be the 2nd out half? Surely that is the sort of thing that will be decided out there, or at least the players wouldn't be told until they got there?

awec · 31-08-2015 02:47PM

Noopti wrote: »

A mate of mine who delivers coffee to Carton House told me he saw Ian Madigan practicing on the scrum machine out the back of the hotel. Make of that what you will.

I heard that Luke Fitzgerald is so versatile he's displaced Bent as the ambi-prop-strous option in the squad.

31-08-2015 02:48PM

Saw this from a few sources:

Healy Mcgrath Ross White Furlong.
Best Strauss Cronin
POC Toner Henderson Ryan
Heaslip SOB POM Henry Murphy
Murray Reddan
Sexton Jackson
Henshaw Cave Madigan Payne
Earls Fitzgerald D Kearney Bowe
R Kearney Zebo

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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