Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

pedigree 6 · 28-08-2015 09:51PM

Timmaay wrote: »

they obviously pay tax??? And they don't have shares, which means they don't get the milk price top up.

I brought the tax up because I was at the open day I think 2 years ago and someone asked one of the speakers about tax and they said they don't pay any, just income tax on the 2.5 workers wages they have. But I think half of their profit/loss at the end of the project will be tax. But I stand to be corrected.:o

kevthegaff · 28-08-2015 10:35PM

We will be questioned on projected supply next year, this could lead to deductions on price. Now say a price drop leading to cost cuts and reductions in yields, but we as suppliers have to guarantee x amount without the processor giving us gurantees on price???

kowtow · 28-08-2015 10:53PM

RightTurnClyde wrote:

Him going to Brussels is proof that even he doesn't believe we're competitive...or someone that has his ear believes we"re not competitive.

The irony of that is delicious.. as the most profitable and lowest cost producers in Europe we should be best placed to weather the storm.

Surely as the 'last man standing in a downturn' - words I'm sure I've heard from the cheerleaders - we should be demanding that Europe keeps its hands in its pockets and let's our expensive competitors blow up.

These should be our glory days

frazzledhome · 28-08-2015 11:28PM

Simon is going only because he's expected. Elections due

pedigree 6 · 29-08-2015 12:02AM

kowtow wrote: »

The irony of that is delicious.. as the most profitable and lowest cost producers in Europe we should be best placed to weather the storm.

Surely as the 'last man standing in a downturn' - words I'm sure I've heard from the cheerleaders - we should be demanding that Europe keeps its hands in its pockets and let's our expensive competitors blow up.

These should be our glory days

I love your posts kowtow and I agree about survival of the fittest, the truth is processors pay different milk prices around Europe and the world. From 75c/l in Switzerland to 25c/l in Ireland and 18c/l in New Zealand. I'm sure NZ farmers are hoping for the rest of the world's dairy farmers to go broke as well but it ain't going to happen.

red bull · 29-08-2015 01:59AM

In my opinion we must seriously look at what we call our competitive position.
1 Grass based - how come the feed companies are so busy
2 Zero grazing growing in many regions
3 Most expensive land
4 Rules and regulations Origin Green = costs
We have a climate that grows an abundant amount of grass, but we don't have a climate to grow maize cheaply. Grass v Maize = no advantage

Panch18 · 29-08-2015 08:06AM

Dawggone wrote: »

Short answer...politics.
Of course there should be NO price supports whatsoever but farmers and processors have political clout, and they know how to use it.

Many moons ago I was driving a combine for the American harvest. There were many crops in Texas that were poor and we would go in and cut some representative acres and weigh it. The farmer then made his application for aid and we would return some days later and finish. The point I'm making is that everything was "supported" in some way.

If banks feel the pinch they are bailed out.
If stock markets are tanking QE is ramped up.

In a perfect business world there would be no market interference whatsoever. However we all know that no market is like that. I'm a little conscious of the social aspect. Do we really want the marginal producers (mostly small family farms) to go to the wall? So if it takes some support and market interference to keep them in business, so be it.

Imo there is

Best post in a while in here

Kowtow is talking a lot of theory, Dawg has nailed the reality

kowtow · 29-08-2015 08:55AM

I agree with Dawg. It would be hard to find a bigger supporter of the small family farm than me.

And of course markets are constantly interfered with by government - especially in Europe but increasingly since 2008 in the US. It's one of the reasons I retired.

But I stand by my point about the intervention price, in Ireland we are strutting milk out like it was going out of fashion despite the low price. If the Europe wide intervention price is raised you have to reward irish expansion and over production long before you make a difference to a family farm in the Yorkshire dales. The new butter mountain would have a tricolor at the summit and a harp carved into the side.

If it's about social support for family farms it's much more effective to use the applied-for schemes like farm assist and SFP.

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 09:34AM

Most of what I posted last night was lost.

Goes something like...

I sold growing maize yesterday for €750/ha. Good value?
The Dept. of Ag. come out on site and measured the DM and starch per ha and then set a fair price...21.3tons DM per ha @€;35/ton.
Now I get €660/ha sfp on that ha. and on Monday I will plant a mix of clover in that very ha. and I'll receive a further €171/ha on top of my €660.
How fair is that?

There is a whole industry surrounding the sfp. The Dept. crew ( there were 3) had to be paid etc etc.

Now I would suggest that there will never be a 'free' market while such supports exist. I for one will resist any abolition of support/aid/market manipulation.
If there were no support in the rest of the world I would still resist the free market because there is no such thing as a free market.

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 09:40AM

freedominacup wrote: »

And they certainly never had to deal at the sharp end with the realities of a currency as volatile as the púnt. Anyone for 23/25% interest on term loans.

Lol.
I had you down as a younger man...not many on here would remember those heady days!

frazzledhome · 29-08-2015 10:00AM

Dawggone wrote: »

Lol.
I had you down as a younger man...not many on here would remember those heady days!

I'll never forget them but by Jaysus made me hardier. Lads talk of milk and grain prices and compare to today's forgetting the cost of money coupled with almost hyper inflation

TireeTerror · 29-08-2015 10:03AM

Too much talk about milk, I'm eagerly awaiting huge price reductions in cheese mmmm I love cheese.

kowtow · 29-08-2015 10:34AM

Dawggone wrote: »

Most of what I posted last night was lost.

Goes something like...

I sold growing maize yesterday for €750/ha. Good value?
The Dept. of Ag. come out on site and measured the DM and starch per ha and then set a fair price...21.3tons DM per ha @€;35/ton.
Now I get €660/ha sfp on that ha. and on Monday I will plant a mix of clover in that very ha. and I'll receive a further €171/ha on top of my €660.
How fair is that?

There is a whole industry surrounding the sfp. The Dept. crew ( there were 3) had to be paid etc etc.

Now I would suggest that there will never be a 'free' market while such supports exist. I for one will resist any abolition of support/aid/market manipulation.
If there were no support in the rest of the world I would still resist the free market because there is no such thing as a free market.

No question at all that farming grants is as much a part of farming as spreading slurry, sad to say. It's true also that there are measures of support even in the non-EU markets and those - like Switzerland - where small family farms are able to support families largely because their local markets enjoy a degree of protection. I think though as farmers we over-estimate the degree to which the taxpaying population is willing to continue these regimes and the bureaucracy which goes with them.

The cruel irony is that often family farms have to expand and become more intensive, polluting, insensitive and socially obnoxious (things the public despise) partly in order to provide a margin to support the bureaucrats and regulators (things the public don't realise they are paying for).

Most of us have been raised to believe that free trade is a good thing - but as Anglo Saxon (in the German sense) westerners we are a very biased sample. We are the rich children of free trade, with living standards and expectations established by previous generations of European merchants who benefited enormously from global commerce. It's pretty easy to support free trade when you are on top of the pile.

I often wonder whether the allure of tariff free trade will wear off a little when we lose our dominance. It might well be that food import tariffs are a more acceptable burden to the local taxpayer than direct social support for farming - it sounds fanciful I know, but if you look carefully you will see some signs that local food is the one thing the public are voting for with their feet - from farmers markets to premium "farmer fair trade" milk in UK supermarkets.

They're all counting food miles anyway - I have a feeling that eventually someone will come up with the (old) idea of charging for them.

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 10:37AM

frazzledhome wrote: »

I'll never forget them but by Jaysus made me hardier. Lads talk of milk and grain prices and compare to today's forgetting the cost of money coupled with almost hyper inflation

Tough times indeed.
Is it a carryover from those times that has everyone rushing to pay down debt today?

I bought a few attachments for a loader last week that came to €9k. Wrote a cheque and was kicking myself after when offered finance @1.2%...

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 11:03AM

kowtow wrote: »

Most of us have been raised to believe that free trade is a good thing - but as Anglo Saxon (in the German sense) westerners we are a very biased sample. We are the rich children of free trade, with living standards and expectations established by previous generations of European merchants who benefited enormously from global commerce. It's pretty easy to support free trade when you are on top of the pile.

I often wonder whether the allure of tariff free trade will wear off a little when we lose our dominance.

Agreed on all that post except the paragraph on the legacy of European merchants...there were no free markets those days either, unless you consider the guns that were used to conquer nations to be 'economic tools'!

Excellent point about the West losing world trade dominance. A point that should be explored in more detail...

kowtow · 29-08-2015 12:45PM

Dawggone wrote:

Agreed on all that post except the paragraph on the legacy of European merchants...there were no free markets those days either, unless you consider the guns that were used to conquer nations to be 'economic tools'!

I was referring to free trade rather than free markets for a change

. And guns (and prayer books) were certainly economic tools..

As in "do you need any help opening your borders to my goods?"

Mercantile society is a beneficent pyramid scheme.. it needs to constantly enlarge from below in order to thrive. Geographically speaking you can either conquer new customer bases with guns or simply convince them to follow your economic rules.. the Germans, unsurprisingly, have a word for it. They call it Lebensraum - much misunderstood nowadays and trotted out by school children as a factor in Ww2 but actually a 19th century economic creed still very popular today.

frazzledhome · 29-08-2015 01:24PM

Dawggone wrote: »

Tough times indeed.
Is it a carryover from those times that has everyone rushing to pay down debt today?

I bought a few attachments for a loader last week that came to €9k. Wrote a cheque and was kicking myself after when offered finance @1.2%...

I learned the opposite, that's to never use my own cash when I can pay a small premium for using some one else's.

I've also learned to borrow enough for as long as possible.

Lesson 3 is never, never compromise cash flow.

These are lessons only learned when you've had your head in the lions mouth

yosemitesam1 · 29-08-2015 01:48PM

kowtow wrote: »

No question at all that farming grants is as much a part of farming as spreading slurry, sad to say. It's true also that there are measures of support even in the non-EU markets and those - like Switzerland - where small family farms are able to support families largely because their local markets enjoy a degree of protection. I think though as farmers we over-estimate the degree to which the taxpaying population is willing to continue these regimes and the bureaucracy which goes with them.

The cruel irony is that often family farms have to expand and become more intensive, polluting, insensitive and socially obnoxious (things the public despise) partly in order to provide a margin to support the bureaucrats and regulators (things the public don't realise they are paying for).

Most of us have been raised to believe that free trade is a good thing - but as Anglo Saxon (in the German sense) westerners we are a very biased sample. We are the rich children of free trade, with living standards and expectations established by previous generations of European merchants who benefited enormously from global commerce. It's pretty easy to support free trade when you are on top of the pile.

I often wonder whether the allure of tariff free trade will wear off a little when we lose our dominance. It might well be that food import tariffs are a more acceptable burden to the local taxpayer than direct social support for farming - it sounds fanciful I know, but if you look carefully you will see some signs that local food is the one thing the public are voting for with their feet - from farmers markets to premium "farmer fair trade" milk in UK supermarkets.

They're all counting food miles anyway - I have a feeling that eventually someone will come up with the (old) idea of charging for them.

Would you think that commodity milk exports worldwide will come under more pressure in the future as Russia,Kazakhstan and Asian countries seem to be trying to get self sufficient

freedominacup · 29-08-2015 01:52PM

Dawggone wrote: »

Lol.
I had you down as a younger man...not many on here would remember those heady days!

I just started young.

mahoney_j · 29-08-2015 02:00PM

frazzledhome wrote: »

I learned the opposite, that's to never use my own cash when I can pay a small premium for using some one else's.

I've also learned to borrow enough for as long as possible.

Lesson 3 is never, never compromise cash flow.

These are lessons only learned when you've had your head in the lions mouth

Sound advice there I'd also add don't rush to pay down debt which could/would have an effect on lesson 3 .

kowtow · 29-08-2015 05:45PM

frazzledhome wrote:

Lesson 3 is never, never compromise cash flow.

Absolutely.

In the end there's only one way to go bust, and that's to run out of cash.

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 06:23PM

kowtow wrote: »

I was referring to free trade rather than free markets for a change . And guns (and prayer books) were certainly economic tools..

As in "do you need any help opening your borders to my goods?"

Mercantile society is a beneficent pyramid scheme.. it needs to constantly enlarge from below in order to thrive. Geographically speaking you can either conquer new customer bases with guns or simply convince them to follow your economic rules.. the Germans, unsurprisingly, have a word for it. They call it Lebensraum - much misunderstood nowadays and trotted out by school children as a factor in Ww2 but actually a 19th century economic creed still very popular today.

I thought that Lebensraum was 'living/nation space'. Thanks for the etymology.

The all devouring mercantile pyramid has to be finite as the planet has finite resources?

Had to do a milking (gasp!) and it is 34degrees so I popped into the office to cool down. Average price this month has been 36.6cpl at 3.39 p and 4.3bf not inc vat. Got done for the guts of 1cpl for thermoduric this month also.
Cows yielding 34.4l on average.

stretch film · 29-08-2015 06:33PM

Dawggone wrote: »

I thought that Lebensraum was 'living/nation space'. Thanks for the etymology.

The all devouring mercantile pyramid has to be finite as the planet has finite resources?

Had to do a milking (gasp!) and it is 34degrees so I popped into the office to cool down. Average price this month has been 36.6cpl at 3.39 p and 4.3bf not inc vat. Got done for the guts of 1cpl for thermoduric this month also.
Cows yielding 34.4l on average.

Had a nasty thermo last week .was on hols . It was almost half of the TBC taken in next collection.
Didnt fancy the grovelling phone call yesterday so left it till Monday .

frazzledhome · 29-08-2015 06:38PM

stretch film wrote: »

Had a nasty thermo last week .was on hols . It was almost half of the TBC taken in next collection.
Didnt fancy the grovelling phone call yesterday so left it till Monday .

Same here thermo high in both last week. Sorted 1 out but can't sort other

Washed both vac lines sorted one not other. Back to drawing board, tomorrow's work sorted out

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 06:42PM

stretch film wrote: »

Had a nasty thermo last week .was on hols . It was almost half of the TBC taken in next collection.
Didnt fancy the grovelling phone call yesterday so left it till Monday .

Grovelling don't work here I'm afraid.

Dawggone · 29-08-2015 06:46PM

frazzledhome wrote: »

Same here thermo high in both last week. Sorted 1 out but can't sort other

Washed both vac lines sorted one not other. Back to drawing board, tomorrow's work sorted out

I know the cause here. With a bonus for aug/sept milk I opened the taps a bit and fed Lucerne and crimson clover wraps. Both are notoriously hard to ensile...

stretch film · 29-08-2015 06:59PM

frazzledhome wrote: »

Same here thermo high in both last week. Sorted 1 out but can't sort other

Washed both vac lines sorted one not other. Back to drawing board, tomorrow's work sorted out

Had you that a second thermo done on request or was it routine. Might be due a result on second later here as only one done so far.

stretch film · 29-08-2015 07:04PM

Dawggone wrote: »

I know the cause here. With a bonus for aug/sept milk I opened the taps a bit and fed Lucerne and crimson clover wraps. Both are notoriously hard to ensile...

Not the first time they've been implicated iirc. Whats your pre milking routine.
A pre spray of Peracetic acid would help if poss.

frazzledhome · 29-08-2015 07:04PM

stretch film wrote: »

Had you that a second thermo done on request or was it routine. Might be due a result on second later here as only one done so far.

On request

frazzledhome · 29-08-2015 07:05PM

Dawggone wrote: »

I know the cause here. With a bonus for aug/sept milk I opened the taps a bit and fed Lucerne and crimson clover wraps. Both are notoriously hard to ensile...

Tails clipped, I presume

Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

Comments