"Life Coaches" - time for regulation?

zeffabelli · 27-08-2015 04:31PM

smash wrote: »

Imagine being so shít at life that you need someone to help you learn how to live... wtf is the world coming to?

Sometimes individuals and organisations either want or are facing big changes and they need a skilled outsider to help them through that.

It's not really about someone not knowing how to live.

27-08-2015 04:44PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Sometimes individuals and organisations either want or are facing big changes and they need a skilled outsider to help them through that.

It's not really about someone not knowing how to live.

That's useful from an organisation point of view but what about individuals who go to a life coach not supported or paid for by the organisation they work for, who are looking for something to fix their lives.

thegreatgonzo · 27-08-2015 05:07PM

mariaalice wrote: »

You have to ask why someone feels the need to see one in the first place.

One of my sister is a career guidance teacher and she is very good I know this from impartial sources, her big things are 80% of people have the aptitude to do 80% of the work/careers so a very few careers require an aptitude to be happy in them.

I could see how a one off focused session with someone natural could help someone but I suspect deep down most people know what they should be doing anyway.

I suppose having someone there while you talk through it makes the difference though. My understanding of a life coach was that it was something like a career guidance person.

zeffabelli · 27-08-2015 05:12PM

mariaalice wrote: »

That's useful from an organisation point of view but what about individuals who go to a life coach not supported or paid for by the organisation they work for, who are looking for something to fix their lives.

Not sure I understand your question.

So what if individuals do it? They need strategies .... Coaching is non directive.

27-08-2015 05:38PM

faceman wrote: »

I have an internationally recognised Coaching qualification which at the time, could only be awarded by one college in Ireland. I believe 2 other colleges offer it now. You also have to complete so many hours a year to retain the international accreditation...
...
...
...Happy to answer any questions about it

Deleted User wrote: »

What is it and what was the college?

faceman wrote: »

I'm not on trial so I'm not divulging personal details here

Woah! Steady up with the defensive stuff there, asking what someone studied for their career is hardly delving deep into their personal details!

faceman wrote: »

Hmmm, I'm seeing a trend here with the word 'advice'. Coaches don't give people advice. That's not what coaching is nor should it ever be. A coach is about unlocking an individual's (or group in some cases) potential to maximise their own performance in order to help them achieve their goals. Its a process of helping them learn, rather than teaching.

That was my issue with what the coach did to my friend, unlocked a Pandora's Box of problems (easy to do to any single woman approaching 30, just a series of questions with the word "regret" and "children" placed in appropriate places as he did). Left her pretty shattered, needing a proper psychologist, because he only just caused the mess but did nothing to address it. He didn't unlock potential, he caused havoc.

faceman wrote: »

What kind of loses and what kind of negligence are you talking about? What is it you think a coach does?

Do you think in the example cited above that life coach should, for example, have to pick up the tab for all the work that will have to be done to get her back on an even keel? If you are critical of his intervention, would you not be in favour of regulation to remove those types from the sector anyway?

27-08-2015 05:39PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Not sure I understand your question.

So what if individuals do it? They need strategies .... Coaching is non directive.

To me it like a motivational speaker or someone new age like Deepak Chopra its too superficial for complex issues, and what can the life coach offer that the person does not know themselves, for example say someone wanted to be a stay at home mother and earn some money they know very well what their choices are, is going to a life coach and brainstorming way of making money while being at home going to help that much ( maybe the life coach will suggest starting a blog about family life as a way to make money )

Or its like those how clean is your house programs it not as simple and glib as cleaning their house and coaching theme about housework they have mental health issues.

As I said a one off focused discussion with someone might help but I cant see what long term life couching does for anyone.

Maybe I am wrong.

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 05:41PM

faceman wrote: »

Its a professional body. Qualifying diplomas, Hdips and mscs are awarded by colleges etc. I think UCC is the only college in Ireland that offers has a Master's award.

I cant be good at what I do without appropriate training, continuous learning, regular experience and supervisory feedback sessions.

Part of the challenge with coaching is the lack of consistency and misconceptions as to what it is. There is a wide array of training options available, but because there is no minimum requirements required to determine when someone is a 'coach', it doesnt take much for someone to earn the title. That's why professional bodies are working to uphold standards with accreditation through meeting minimum requirements for membership.

Given I focus on executive coaching and work with clients internationally, being regulated in Ireland would offer no more assurance to international clients than accreditation with recognised international bodies today. So if regulation was to be considered, it would need to be at an international level.

Yes we know it's a 'professional body', but it's qualifications don't seem to have any real standards of evidence-based practice.

If the industry was regulated in Ireland, and you were unable to obtain a regulated qualification, then you would have to move out of Ireland in order to practice your job - so no, it's perfectly possible to regulate at a national level.

An international organization (i.e. an organization run by life coaches, not by any government body) means self-regulation, which is rife with potential for conflicts of interest and is easily corrupted (with nobody being accountable and facing jail time, if such corruption occurs) - nationally enforced regulation, means people being held accountable and put in prison for breaches; something that international regulation can not provide.

International regulation (i.e. industry self-regulation) = Little accountability and no chance of prison for breaches, not legally prevented from continuing to practice.
National regulation = Prison time and impossible to legally practice after breaches.

faceman wrote: »

There are plenty of books and papers published on coaching, methods and the effectiveness. The International Coaching Institute has been actively involved in research with their partners in psychology . The book "Evidence Based Coaching Handbook" is a good starting point, and its written by psychologists who are also coaches.

Evidence-based material doesn't seem to be a requirement for obtaining qualifications though, so there is little point stating that such material exists, if that is not actually enforced by the qualifications.

Also, anyone can write a book and stick 'evidence-based' in the title - but one of the main reviews of that book, cites it as lacking actual evidence:
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Based-Coaching-Handbook-Practices/product-reviews/0471720860/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_rgt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=critical&pageNumber=1

What actual citable empirical research is there, on the efficacy of particular methods, of life coaching? (not random books either, but citable articles in published peer-reviewed journals)

thegreatgonzo · 27-08-2015 05:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That was my issue with what the coach did to my friend, unlocked a Pandora's Box of problems (easy to do to any single woman approaching 30, just a series of questions with the word "regret" and "children" placed in appropriate places as he did).

oh come off it. Your friend's reaction was no way representative of most women.

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 05:50PM

Samaris wrote: »

"Will the witness for the prosecution step forward."

Sounds to me like faceman isn't really the sort of thing that this thread is complaining about. You give advice to people on accomplishing specific goals in a business arena, which isn't really the same thing as pseudo-psychological stuff offered to people about solving all their life problems.

Well, some of it is 'pseudo-psychological stuff offered to people about solving all their business problems'.

Same potential for abuse, different field.

27-08-2015 05:52PM

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

oh come off it. Your friend's reaction was no way representative of most women.

What are you on about? Who said she was?

She was going as an individual, not as some representative of women all over the world!

27-08-2015 05:56PM

To miss quote Dylan Moran...leave your potential alone its like you bank balance you know, you always have less than you think.

zeffabelli · 27-08-2015 05:58PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What are you on about? Who said she was?

She was going as an individual, not as some representative of women all over the world!

I think the point is that without info you don't know if there were underlying issues there that were triggered by the coach, but not caused by him.

This also is not convincing of over all charlatan ism.

27-08-2015 06:04PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

I think the point is that without info you don't know if there were underlying issues there that were triggered by the coach, but not caused by him.

This also is not convincing of over all charlatan ism.

But the potential as its the life coach's business to take people who in reality need psychological or Psychiatric help and not life coaching must be there, I am not saying there is anything wrong with it per say its just I cant see what people get out of it.

zeffabelli · 27-08-2015 06:07PM

mariaalice wrote: »

But the potential as its the life coach's business to take people who in reality need psychological or Psychiatric help and not life coaching must be there, I am not saying there is anything wrong with it per say its just I cant see what people get out of it.

Well I can't see what people get out of watching sports but there ya go.

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 06:19PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Well I can't see what people get out of watching sports but there ya go.

Do you not think life coaches have any responsibility for the potential negative consequences of their advice though?

Their profession guarantees that they are going to be meeting vulnerable people, so shouldn't they be responsible for knowing how to deal with this?

Good article here, outlining many of the serious problems with unregulated life coaching:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201402/life-coaches-and-mental-illness

Such coaches should probably have to have mandatory basic training in mental health, to at least identify vulnerable clients and send them elsewhere for help - a coach who doesn't know what he's doing with regards to the mental health consequences of his/her advice, can be outright dangerous to many vulnerable clients.

For example, a coach giving bad advice to a person that is suicidal (unknown to the coach, but which could be spotted by someone with the right mental health training), and leads that person into more highly stressful life circumstances as a result of that bad advice, leading to the persons suicide, can bare responsibility for that.

thegreatgonzo · 27-08-2015 06:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you on about? Who said she was?

She was going as an individual, not as some representative of women all over the world!

You said that it is easy to unlock a pandora's box of problems with ANY single woman almost 30 by asking questions with the words regret and children.
It isn't. Your friend's reaction was very unusual.

zeffabelli · 27-08-2015 06:50PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Do you not think life coaches have any responsibility for the potential negative consequences of their advice though?

Their profession guarantees that they are going to be meeting vulnerable people, so shouldn't they be responsible for knowing how to deal with this?

Good article here, outlining many of the serious problems with unregulated life coaching:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201402/life-coaches-and-mental-illness

Such coaches should probably have to have mandatory basic training in mental health, to at least identify vulnerable clients and send them elsewhere for help - a coach who doesn't know what he's doing with regards to the mental health consequences of his/her advice, can be outright dangerous to many vulnerable clients.

For example, a coach giving bad advice to a person that is suicidal (unknown to the coach, but which could be spotted by someone with the right mental health training), and leads that person into more highly stressful life circumstances as a result of that bad advice, leading to the persons suicide, can bare responsibility for that.

Well firstly, it's not just vulnerable people who seek this out. Sometimes highly competitive people do, non profits do, families in transition do.

Also it's not advice. You need to stop thinking about it in those terms. Frankly I think PI is far more frightening in the terms you're talking about.

Coaches are not mental health professionals nor claim to be..... This is akin to blaming your grinds teacher for not spotting your vulnerabilities and blaming them for pushing you to hard and having a nervous breakdown. You too have a responsibility, it's ip to you to say hey wait a minute .... It's not like bring a student in primary.... You have autonomy... you have parity.... This is not a master slave relationship.

I'm a competitive tennis player, I want to up my game. It will impact my family.... I need more money to train.

We are divorcing .... I want to sue her till I bleed her dry.... Step mom... Step dad.... Can't be in the same room for 30 seconds.... Can we find a way to avoid a life long court battle....

My career us in IT but I really want to be a fashion designer.... How do I make this transition with five mouths to feed and a spouse with cancer? Also I'm teally fat and can't stop eating.

There are a myriad of circumstances where individuals need practical strategies from people who know about human development.

What I don't get is how regulation is going to help spot a suicide risk when doctors and shrinks miss it regularly.

No one is immune from assisted suicide charge if that's what your talking about, no one. So if your advice leads to a suicide.... Not sure what you mean here, as in methods of doing it? Telling them it's a good idea? Etc.... ? Then that's assisted suicide. And there are already laws for that.

faceman · 27-08-2015 06:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Woah! Steady up with the defensive stuff there, asking what someone studied for their career is hardly delving deep into their personal details!

Ah ok, hard to tell on boards. Usually people have ulterior motives!

Aside from coaching, I hold qualifications in Management. I have a particular passion for people development. And anything that allows me to use improv.

wrote:

That was my issue with what the coach did to my friend, unlocked a Pandora's Box of problems (easy to do to any single woman approaching 30, just a series of questions with the word "regret" and "children" placed in appropriate places as he did). Left her pretty shattered, needing a proper psychologist, because he only just caused the mess but did nothing to address it. He didn't unlock potential, he caused havoc.

Do you think in the example cited above that life coach should, for example, have to pick up the tab for all the work that will have to be done to get her back on an even keel? If you are critical of his intervention, would you not be in favour of regulation to remove those types from the sector anyway?

I see your point and the grounds for regulation. I don't have the full circumstances of the case so I can't comment in particular but I can say this. If you take the work of a psychologists/therapist to have a tendency to work backwards, coaching is the opposite where our focus is forward. Coaches are not therapists or anything close to it. People shouldn't be seeking out a Coach if they have problems and a Coach should be identifying potential risk areas early on. In fact one of the first things I was taught was knowing the difference between a Coach and a therapist.

To give some examples of some of the type of 1to1 coaching scenarios I have worked with people on:

* Career development - working towards promotion.
* Discipline in relation to work approaches
* Conflict resolution
* Career goals
* Time management
* Work/life balance
* Leadership Development

Some examples of personal coaching scenarios:

* Balance of exam study/work life/personal life (with the view of exam success)
* Weightloss/exercise motivation plans
* Career changes & motivation

I've obviously kept the examples general but you can see the trend with the kind of topics covered. None of these would fall into the category of personal issues but rather personal development. Personal issues for the most part are not in our remit.

Hopefully this gives better insight.
*

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 07:05PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Well firstly, it's not just vulnerable people who seek this out. Sometimes highly competitive people do, non profits do, families in transition do.

Also it's not advice. You need to stop thinking about it in those terms. Frankly I think PI is far more frightening in the terms you're talking about.

Coaches are not mental health professionals nor claim to be..... This is akin to blaming your grinds teacher for not spotting your vulnerabilities and blaming them for pushing you to hard and having a nervous breakdown. You too have a responsibility, it's ip to you to say hey wait a minute .... It's not like bring a student in primary.... You have autonomy... you have parity.... This is not a master slave relationship.

I'm a competitive tennis player, I want to up my game. It will impact my family.... I need more money to train.

We are divorcing .... I want to sue her till I bleed her dry.... Step mom... Step dad.... Can't be in the same room for 30 seconds.... Can we find a way to avoid a life long court battle....

My career us in IT but I really want to be a fashion designer.... How do I make this transition with five mouths to feed and a spouse with cancer? Also I'm teally fat and can't stop eating.

There are a myriad of circumstances where individuals need practical strategies from people who know about human development.

What I don't get is how regulation is going to help spot a suicide risk when doctors and shrinks miss it regularly.

No one is immune from assisted suicide charge if that's what your talking about, no one. So if your advice leads to a suicide.... Not sure what you mean here, as in methods of doing it? Telling them it's a good idea? Etc.... ? Then that's assisted suicide. And there are already laws for that.

Ya but it doesn't matter if it's not just vulnerable people, the fact that life coaching is guaranteed to have people in a vulnerable mental state, seeking life coaching, means that's something that has to be trained for.

Life coaching does involve advice. It's not just advice, but it does involve it, and that advice can be bad advice, with serious negative consequences. I agree about PI there in any case - not as bad as it used to be, but some of the advice can be extremely bad.

I didn't say coaches are or claimed to be mental health professionals - I said they should mandatorily have basic training to spot certain mental health issues, that would make their coaching risky from a mental health standpoint.
It does sound like you are saying, that life coaches don't have responsibility, for the mental health effects of their advice?

I think that is completely wrong, that they should have responsibility - and this does not mean responsibility for treating mental health issues (though some do claim to do this), but for at least recognizing them and how their advice may be unsuitable for patients with certain issues.

In the suicide case, I never said assisted suicide, I was discussing the example of bad advice from a life therapist, with a suicidal patient, leading to suicide - something that multiple qualified psychologists have expressed concerns about.

Here is another good article on the dangers of life coaching and those with mental health issues:
http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2014/02/26/life-coaching-and-mental-illness-a-potential-minefield/

faceman · 27-08-2015 07:07PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yes we know it's a 'professional body', but it's qualifications don't seem to have any real standards of evidence-based practice.

If the industry was regulated in Ireland, and you were unable to obtain a regulated qualification, then you would have to move out of Ireland in order to practice your job - so no, it's perfectly possible to regulate at a national level.

An international organization (i.e. an organization run by life coaches, not by any government body) means self-regulation, which is rife with potential for conflicts of interest and is easily corrupted (with nobody being accountable and facing jail time, if such corruption occurs) - nationally enforced regulation, means people being held accountable and put in prison for breaches; something that international regulation can not provide.

International regulation (i.e. industry self-regulation) = Little accountability and no chance of prison for breaches, not legally prevented from continuing to practice.
National regulation = Prison time and impossible to legally practice after breaches.

I would disagree of some of your views on regulation but I guess given Im a coach, Im not best qualified to offer my input...

I'm not the best person to talk academia with on the topic but if you feel strongly about it why not contact them directly? Or closer to home contact UCC or Kingston College in Dublin?

wrote:

Evidence-based material doesn't seem to be a requirement for obtaining qualifications though, so there is little point stating that such material exists, if that is not actually enforced by the qualifications.

Also, anyone can write a book and stick 'evidence-based' in the title - but one of the main reviews of that book, cites it as lacking actual evidence:
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Based-Coaching-Handbook-Practices/product-reviews/0471720860/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_rgt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=critical&pageNumber=1

What actual citable empirical research is there, on the efficacy of particular methods, of life coaching? (not random books either, but citable articles in published peer-reviewed journals)

You seem to have more than just a casual interest in challenging the coaching profession or more, perhaps you should take this up with industry directly. There are plenty of resources online.

My studies in the area do not require me to have to justify the profession. Maybe someone who has a Masters in the topic can. I have been very successful in the field, otherwise I wouldn't have repeat clients in both individuals and companies.

I know what I do works, I wouldn't do it otherwise. I do more than just coaching in terms of my own work and given half of what I do is built on personal reputation, there is no way I would conduct myself or what I do in a way that would damage it.

faceman · 27-08-2015 07:10PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya but it doesn't matter if it's not just vulnerable people, the fact that life coaching is guaranteed to have people in a vulnerable mental state, seeking life coaching, means that's something that has to be trained for.

Coaches should not be coaching vulnerable people in the areas they are vulnerable in. Effective coaching does not leave people in a vulnerable mental state.

wrote:

Life coaching does involve advice. It's not just advice, but it does involve it, and that advice can be bad advice, with serious negative consequences.

This is just not true, or at least should not be true. A coach does NOT tell someone what to do or what they should do. Where you are getting your information from?

wrote:

I didn't say coaches are or claimed to be mental health professionals - I said they should mandatorily have basic training to spot certain mental health issues, that would make their coaching risky from a mental health standpoint.
It does sound like you are saying, that life coaches don't have responsibility, for the mental health effects of their advice?

I think that is completely wrong, that they should have responsibility - and this does not mean responsibility for treating mental health issues (though some do claim to do this), but for at least recognizing them and how their advice may be unsuitable for patients with certain issues.

In the suicide case, I never said assisted suicide, I was discussing the example of bad advice from a life therapist, with a suicidal patient, leading to suicide - something that multiple qualified psychologists have expressed concerns about.

Here is another good article on the dangers of life coaching and those with mental health issues:
http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2014/02/26/life-coaching-and-mental-illness-a-potential-minefield/

Agree with all of this.

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 07:22PM

faceman wrote: »

I would disagree of some of your views on regulation but I guess given Im a coach, Im not best qualified to offer my input...

I'm not the best person to talk academia with on the topic but if you feel strongly about it why not contact them directly? Or closer to home contact UCC or Kingston College in Dublin?

Well see, that you treat life coaching as being empirically based, but consider actual empirical knowledge of the efficacy of what you practice as being 'academic', suggests that you don't actually know if what you are practicing is really evidence based - otherwise you'd be able to cite evidence/studies to back that up.

faceman wrote: »

You seem to have more than just a casual interest in challenging the coaching profession or more, perhaps you should take this up with industry directly. There are plenty of resources online.

My studies in the area do not require me to have to justify the profession. Maybe someone who has a Masters in the topic can. I have been very successful in the field, otherwise I wouldn't have repeat clients in both individuals and companies.

I know what I do works, I wouldn't do it otherwise. I do more than just coaching in terms of my own work and given half of what I do is built on personal reputation, there is no way I would conduct myself or what I do in a way that would damage it.

Well, my interest is mainly applying skeptical/critical thinking to this topic, and seeing how sound the evidence/empirical basis is for life coaching (that's a pet topic of mine - 'philosophy of science'/epistemology, and seeing just how well a field of study/practice actually holds up based on evidence) - life coaching sounds really poorly supported.

Again, anecdote (that you are successful) doesn't cut it - I'm surprised that anyone working in the field, doesn't have knowledge of the empirical basis of what they practice, as people in the medical and psychological/pyschiatric industry would usually have.
You don't have to justify the profession at all, but it's just starting to make it look like a not-so-credible profession, where the qualifications life coaches hold, are not actually credible enough to show any kind of empirical/evidence-based effectiveness for the profession.

Anecdote is worth nothing - claims of efficacy in the field have to be backed up with statistical evidence of high quality; that isn't academic either, it's something everyone working in the field should know intimately, and should stay well researched on, as it's also their job to know that what they are practicing is effective (as shown by high quality evidence).

zeffabelli · 27-08-2015 07:23PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya but it doesn't matter if it's not just vulnerable people, the fact that life coaching is guaranteed to have people in a vulnerable mental state, seeking life coaching, means that's something that has to be trained for.

Life coaching does involve advice. It's not just advice, but it does involve it, and that advice can be bad advice, with serious negative consequences. I agree about PI there in any case - not as bad as it used to be, but some of the advice can be extremely bad.

I didn't say coaches are or claimed to be mental health professionals - I said they should mandatorily have basic training to spot certain mental health issues, that would make their coaching risky from a mental health standpoint.
It does sound like you are saying, that life coaches don't have responsibility, for the mental health effects of their advice?

I think that is completely wrong, that they should have responsibility - and this does not mean responsibility for treating mental health issues (though some do claim to do this), but for at least recognizing them and how their advice may be unsuitable for patients with certain issues.

In the suicide case, I never said assisted suicide, I was discussing the example of bad advice from a life therapist, with a suicidal patient, leading to suicide - something that multiple qualified psychologists have expressed concerns about.

Here is another good article on the dangers of life coaching and those with mental health issues:
http://boundariesofthesoul.com/2014/02/26/life-coaching-and-mental-illness-a-potential-minefield/

What you said was bearing some responsibility if their advice leads to a suicide. How is this possible outside of assisted suicide?

If they say go off your meds, then yeah sure... But that's not in the remit.... Like homeopaths who say don't take your inhaler....

And btw I know a someone registered on the psychotherapists registry who tells people they are crazy to take their meds, disturbed to take Ritalin etc.... So seriously what do you think regulation will accomplish?

Yurt2 · 27-08-2015 07:30PM

I know a girl through a friend, who has done all these bogus certificates in life coaching, wellness, and nutrition (i.e unqualified fake dietitian quackery). She's into Gerson therapy nonsense and maintains enemas and a raw vegan diet cures everything from autism to blindness. She's so dumb I want to smother her with a pillow. I'd actually respect her more if she believed in magic or something. And she's peddling these 'services' to anyone who will listen (usually the vulnerable).

People who try to flog this craic along with homeopathy, energy healing and any other new age b*llocks should be rounded up, locked in a classroom and made study the principles of science until admit they are morons.

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 07:33PM

faceman wrote: »

Coaches should not be coaching vulnerable people in the areas they are vulnerable in. Effective coaching does not leave people in a vulnerable mental state.

They don't have the training to spot this though do they? Due to the lack of regulation, many coaches do offer mental health support.

faceman wrote: »

This is just not true, or at least should not be true. A coach does NOT tell someone what to do or what they should do. Where you are getting your information from?

Telling is not advising - I said that advising is a part of what life coaches do, and advising is a regular part of descriptions of what life coaches do.

This can lead to bad advice, and I've outlined situations previously, where this can lead to serious harm.

faceman wrote: »

Agree with all of this.

Okey - the problem here though, is that (like the first point above) there is no mandatory training for spotting mental health issues and such, as part of qualifications.

KomradeBishop · 27-08-2015 07:42PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

What you said was bearing some responsibility if their advice leads to a suicide. How is this possible outside of assisted suicide?

If they say go off your meds, then yeah sure... But that's not in the remit.... Like homeopaths who say don't take your inhaler....

And btw I know a someone registered on the psychotherapists registry who tells people they are crazy to take their meds, disturbed to take Ritalin etc.... So seriously what do you think regulation will accomplish?

I already outlined a situation where bad advice can lead to suicide in my first reply there:

For example, a coach giving bad advice to a person that is suicidal (unknown to the coach, but which could be spotted by someone with the right mental health training), and leads that person into more highly stressful life circumstances as a result of that bad advice, leading to the persons suicide, can bare responsibility for that.

That's not assisted suicide, but the coach would bear responsibility due to their negligence - not legal responsibility though, because they are unregulated.

I outlined in reply to faceman, a part of what regulations would accomplish - a snippet:

International regulation (i.e. industry self-regulation) = Little accountability and no chance of prison for breaches, not legally prevented from continuing to practice.
National regulation = Prison time and impossible to legally practice after breaches.

The articles I linked also outlined multiple good reasons for regulations (in relation to above, am not stating that consequences for any of the below, would be severe enough for prison):

Ethics and boundaries. The therapeutic relationship between client and therapist is regulated and upheld. This includes sexual contact, collection of payment and what a therapist can do to retrieve payment. Even though some coaching associations have a code of ethics, there is nothing to say it is mandatory. As there are no clear boundaries, coaches are free to do as they see fit especially concerning overdue payments and what they see as appropriate behavior towards clients. On the ethical side, is it really right to be claiming that as a coach, you can deal with mental health issues without the training needed?

“Leaving a client”. Licensed mental health professionals can bring serious trouble on themselves if they are seen to abandon a client in need, for whatever reason. This goes even for the case that the “chemistry” is not there ( in which case, a referral should be made) or in the case of financial difficulty (where other resources can be found). Coaches are under no such obligation.

Privacy and Confidentiality. As coaching is not part of formal healthcare, there are no obligations under HIPAA (Health Information Portability and Accountability Act). There is nothing, apart from self regulation to stop a coach talking openly about any case he or she is dealing with. It might even be the case that they are not aware of the subtle problems that surround confidentiality issues.

Suicide issues. As a therapist who has worked with suicidal patients before, I cannot claim to find it easy. Often the subtle clues that are given must be listened for by an experienced ear and even then, there is no guarantee that the right message is being picked up. Are coaches with their lack of high-end training the right people to be dealing with this?

Liability. Licensed mental health professionals must carry liability insurance. This is for the protection of clients who can have recourse for malpractice. I know for a fact that some coaches do have this but there is no obligation to do so.

Those are lots of good reasons, for regulations - which other professionals in the medical/mental-health industry are at least partly held to.

NachoBusiness · 27-08-2015 11:14PM

robbiezero wrote: »

Why is Oprah a hypocrite? Genuine question. I have never seen the show.

Because she complains about the media's intrusion and obsession with star's personal lives. She then interviews those celebs and pretends to be concerned about how they deal with the public's interest in their personal lives which should really none of their business, but yet her whole reason for interviewing them is so she can then get the scoop on that very thing: the celeb's personal lives. She's just more sneaky about doing it.

She is in the entertainment business with the aim of making lots of money, and in order to do that she needs to court popularity and adapt a suitable persona for that.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to make money, once they don't pretend to be something they are not.
She's a fake. No different than the likes of Jeremy Kyle, showing faux concern for people her producers are exploiting.
Evangelists are more genuine.

zeffabelli · 28-08-2015 07:01AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I already outlined a situation where bad advice can lead to suicide in my first reply there:
For example, a coach giving bad advice to a person that is suicidal (unknown to the coach, but which could be spotted by someone with the right mental health training), and leads that person into more highly stressful life circumstances as a result of that bad advice, leading to the persons suicide, can bare responsibility for that.
That's not assisted suicide, but the coach would bear responsibility due to their negligence - not legal responsibility though, because they are unregulated.

I outlined in reply to faceman, a part of what regulations would accomplish - a snippet:
International regulation (i.e. industry self-regulation) = Little accountability and no chance of prison for breaches, not legally prevented from continuing to practice.
National regulation = Prison time and impossible to legally practice after breaches.

The articles I linked also outlined multiple good reasons for regulations (in relation to above, am not stating that consequences for any of the below, would be severe enough for prison):
Ethics and boundaries. The therapeutic relationship between client and therapist is regulated and upheld. This includes sexual contact, collection of payment and what a therapist can do to retrieve payment. Even though some coaching associations have a code of ethics, there is nothing to say it is mandatory. As there are no clear boundaries, coaches are free to do as they see fit especially concerning overdue payments and what they see as appropriate behavior towards clients. On the ethical side, is it really right to be claiming that as a coach, you can deal with mental health issues without the training needed?

“Leaving a client”. Licensed mental health professionals can bring serious trouble on themselves if they are seen to abandon a client in need, for whatever reason. This goes even for the case that the “chemistry” is not there ( in which case, a referral should be made) or in the case of financial difficulty (where other resources can be found). Coaches are under no such obligation.

Privacy and Confidentiality. As coaching is not part of formal healthcare, there are no obligations under HIPAA (Health Information Portability and Accountability Act). There is nothing, apart from self regulation to stop a coach talking openly about any case he or she is dealing with. It might even be the case that they are not aware of the subtle problems that surround confidentiality issues.

Suicide issues. As a therapist who has worked with suicidal patients before, I cannot claim to find it easy. Often the subtle clues that are given must be listened for by an experienced ear and even then, there is no guarantee that the right message is being picked up. Are coaches with their lack of high-end training the right people to be dealing with this?

Liability. Licensed mental health professionals must carry liability insurance. This is for the protection of clients who can have recourse for malpractice. I know for a fact that some coaches do have this but there is no obligation to do so.
Those are lots of good reasons, for regulations - which other professionals in the medical/mental-health industry are at least partly held to.

No I don't think they can bear responsibility for that, bar bullying or chronic abuse, ultimately the person who commits suicide is responsible for their choice, which is likely linked to an impulse disorder.

People walk into these things, whether coaching or therapy and passively expect the expert to wave a magic wand and fix everything without them having to break a sweat.

It doesn't work that way. It's hard personal work.

I agree about the cult of the guru, sure, and I do have a kind of opinion that therapists are the new clergy, dispensing a new morality in their confessional chambers, but that is not what coaching is. Very different.

And yes a more gifted or experienced one will recognise underlying issues or disorders, but the whole issue of disorder itself is questionable given the politics of the psych industry.

Problem is there are too many "certificates" floating around in this country and I can't comment on the training.... Dunno anything about it.

Musefan · 28-08-2015 07:30AM

Jusr going back to an earlier post about writing counsellor on your door and starting operating there and then, it is probably useful to note that counsellors who have completed appropriate accredited training and affiliate themselves with a professional body can be easily searched on the Irish association of counselling and psychotherapy website. Similarly, you can search for registered psychologists on the psychological society of Ireland website. It's not to say that counsellors or psychologists who are not registered with these professional bodies are charlatans, but rather, you as a consumer of that service from an unregistered professional, have no guarantee that the professional is bound to operate within the remits of safe and ethical practice. Registered professionals have to conduct all business within the ethical guidelines of their relative organisation.

In terms of life coaching, I do find it worrying to think that life coaches may be working outside their remit and increasing the level of distress clients feel as a result. However, I have two reservations as to why I would be quick to place all the blame on them.

Firstly, as a person, never mind a professional, when someone sits in front of you in distress, our natural reactions often push us towards doing whatever we can to alleviate this distress. I find it hard to criticise a life coach for acting in a human way by possibly probing further with questions and feeling like they may be able to help if they found out a little more. I'm a mental health professional but I might have done the same at some points when I was less aware of best practices. Luckily I went on to develop the skills to both probe further but also support the individual.

Secondly, I think life coaches are operating in an area of health where we as a population are appallingly catered to. Before people go on to develop mental health conditions, we are often a asymptomatic I.e. We're not depressed, we're not anxious, but we have a bad day or two, and we have some niggling worries about some things, and life just can be hard too. These things don't mean we have a mental illness, but it does not mean we don't need help. And when we don't get that help, there is more liklihood that you will become symptomatic and develop a health condition.

Where do we get that health for asymptomatic stuff in Ireland? Not many places. Going to a counsellor, psychologist, psychiatrist often requires that we are assessed on our symptoms. I'd like to see us treating our wellbeing like we do with our physical health. High cholesterol? Chances are you've been given some health advice to stop you developing another more serious condition. Life is tough and your decisions are hard? Sorry, you're not meeting the criteria for a mental health condition but you will get help when you do meet these criteria. See how the logic does not follow from physical to mental health? I think life coaches fit at these asymptomatic points and unfortunately, until we develop a better awareness of how to help at this stage, they remain a part of a limited range of tools, which work for a limited range of people, in what is a very big and non-ignorable area of unmet health need. Rant over

Richard Hillman · 28-08-2015 07:53AM

Life coach
Nutritionist
Personal trainer

All fake professions, feeding off people's insecurities. Nutritionists really grind my gears. It is appalling that they are allowed to influence society. Human's have been doing fine for a long time before they came along.

With personal trainers you can just ignore them. They probably just did it to get some girls to like them. Which kind of makes a mockery of the Garda vetting system.

"Life Coaches" - time for regulation?

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