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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    dughorm wrote:
    It has exposed simplistic arguments and emotional reactions against the language

    Could you summarize these, or even show us one of them?
    Without, you know, asking anybody what school they went to or if they are somebody else or some other tripe.

    Just one?... that's easy
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95832656&postcount=1087

    I'm sure you don't need me give an example of emotional outbursts?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    G'wan cast the first stone there from your high throne of logic - are you ready to talk about the topic at hand now?
    I was until you claimed I had been avoiding questions, then you lied about making the claim.
    Am I supposed to apologise for using logic now? Well SORREEEEE. Here, have another anecdote...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    A interesting thread but ....Two posters who seem a wee bit fanatical in their own way now reduced to dragging up posts to see who said (or did not say)what the other poster imagined they said. Oíche mhaith.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    kingchess wrote: »
    A interesting thread but ....Two posters who seem a wee bit fanatical in their own way now reduced to dragging up posts to see who said (or did not say)what the other poster imagined they said. Oíche mhaith.
    Some people mind when they're lied about. I guess some people don't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Demonique wrote: »
    Joe Duffy said English was our first language on Live Line today


    Anyway, what year was Pheig (or whatever her name was) dropped from the Curriculum? I have a vague memory of Phegin bocht

    1999 I believe


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Demonique wrote: »
    Joe Duffy said English was our first language on Live Line today
    Joe Duffy is correct, in any practical sense. English is the first language of the overwhelming majority of our population.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    osarusan wrote: »
    Joe Duffy is correct, in any practical sense. English is the first language of the overwhelming majority of our population.

    And has been for quite some time.... so what's different about it now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Dughorm wrote: »
    And has been for quite some time.... so what's different about it now?
    I never said there was anything different about it now...just responding to a post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    That's all quite reasonable - I would see compulsory Irish as a starting point rather than an end in itself. But any significant increase in Irish policy-pushing would require funding that successive governments have decided against - so it looks like Irish is trapped in a stalemate from a structural point of view.

    From the point of view of the learner, there's never been a wider variety of interesting resources - so it depends from what perspective you look at it.

    Compulsion Irish does not work. It hasnt' worked in 80 years. And now you want tro use it as a "starting point"...??

    All the resources in the world don't work - this is preaching to the connverted again - if the learner is reluctant. And again, your best idea is to force it.

    This post very much illustrates what I mean by "stubborn".
    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Some of the Irish speaking community can be very like this yes, but as I said before this is a minority within a minority and it can give the language a bad name. I've witnessed, and have argued with this type of stubbornness in the past and sometimes things are better left unsaid. There is a need for compromise especially in this day of age.

    I wouldn't say the majority of them preach either (although maybe in your experience they have) and sometimes you have to distinguish between preaching and defending the language and I've found the two can be mixed especially in this thread.

    Therein lies your problem. The stubborness wins out, the minority wins, the status quo remains.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    osarusan wrote: »
    I never said there was anything different about it now...just responding to a post.

    I think that's an important point though - Irish speakers have been a minority for an awful long time - so whether Joe Duffy pronounces on this or not is irrelevant - this isn't news.

    Significant changes over the past 30 years - such as the blossoming gaelscoil movement on the positive or the decline in the gaeltachts on the other hand- are worth noting however!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Compulsion Irish does not work. It hasnt' worked in 80 years. And now you want tro use it as a "starting point"...??

    It would have to be in any widespread policy change to promote the language in my opinion.

    But I don't think Irish should be mandatory in the hope of a "widespread cultural policy change" - I think it's a necessary part of a liberal arts education in Ireland with the other mandatory subjects.
    All the resources in the world don't work - this is preaching to the connverted again - if the learner is reluctant. And again, your best idea is to force it.
    .

    The key point here is that the learner is reluctant. If the learner is reluctant to learn maths then all the resources won't work for them either. It follows from your argument that people shouldn't learn subjects they're reluctant to learn and that all subjects should be optional. That's a reasonable position as I've said previously... but not one that has been proposed by any party as far as I know.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    But I don't think Irish should be mandatory in the hope of a "widespread cultural policy change" - I think it's a necessary part of a liberal arts education in Ireland with the other mandatory subjects.
    But you have never once told us why.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    It would have to be in any widespread policy change to promote the language in my opinion.

    But I don't think Irish should be mandatory in the hope of a "widespread cultural policy change" - I think it's a necessary part of a liberal arts education in Ireland with the other mandatory subjects.

    This is an education policy, not an Irish lanaguge policy.

    You can't have compulsion anything as part of a "liberal arts" anything. This has been pointed out: liberal means freedom. In any case, you could drop Irish and take French or German or even Latin and let the student choose for themsleves. THAT Would be a liberal arts educationn.


    The key point here is that the learner is reluctant. If the learner is reluctant to learn maths then all the resources won't work for them either. It follows from your argument that people shouldn't learn subjects they're reluctant to learn and that all subjects should be optional. That's a reasonable position as I've said previously... but not one that has been proposed by any party as far as I know.

    So what?

    We're back to square one. Force them for the sake of force. Somethign should be compulsory, we don't care what.

    This is the exact opposite of a liberal arts education.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OMD wrote: »
    I got an A in Irish in the leaving.

    Maith thú. :)

    Ní bhfuair mise ach C, ach tá Gaeilge agam. Bhí béim ar scríbhneoireacht in ionad caint san aois sin, faraor.

    Is dócha go bhfuil sí go fóill agatsa freisin - cosúil le seoid atá i bhfolach agat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Maith thú. :)

    Ní bhfuair mise ach C, ach tá Gaeilge agam. Bhí béim ar scríbhneoireacht in ionad caint san aois sin, faraor.

    Is dócha go bhfuil sí go fóill agatsa freisin - cosúil le seoid atá i bhfolach agat.

    .. --. --- - .- -.. --- -. .- .--. .- ... ... -.-. --- ..- .-. ... .

    :D

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I think that's an important point though - Irish speakers have been a minority for an awful long time - so whether Joe Duffy pronounces on this or not is irrelevant - this isn't news.

    Significant changes over the past 30 years - such as the blossoming gaelscoil movement on the positive or the decline in the gaeltachts on the other hand- are worth noting however!
    I've been hearing about "the blossoming gaelscoil movement" for well over two decades at this stage, but I've yet to see any positive "significant changes" as a result. Instead the decline of the language has continued unabated.

    That there is no objective or independent measure of how many actually speak more than cúpla focal has further brushed the problem under the carpet.

    TBH, the problem is not those who criticize the language, but the ostriches that maintain there is no problem, or that we're turning the corner only for us to never see this happen. It's the gaelgores who are embedded in the Irish language industry that are killing it because they refuse or fear any radical reform of how it is promoted - except for any reform that would create more grants and jobs for gaelgores, of course.

    It's all a bit like the Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch, at this stage.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    I'm not emphasising that people are only speaking Irish in their homes, it was a response to a point raised. Of course Irish is spoken in public. I think you are somewhat twisting my words here.

    RnaLife source; http://www.mediastreet.ie/en/businesses/raidio-na-life-1064-fm

    I don't trust that figure. There's no breakdown nor is there any info on how it was calculated.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I don't trust that figure. There's no breakdown nor is there any info on how it was calculated.
    It's a figure meant for advertising purposes. Print publications do the same - they call it 'circulation' - and how this is calculated is completely pie in the sky by a factor of 10 or 20. You can safely presume that the figure is grossly exaggerated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Mod note: Hiya, when you post in another language (except for the forums dedicated to those, like Teach na nGalt with Irish, for example), you need to provide translation for it in English so people can understand it.
    I know what you said didn't break any rules so this is just a friendly reminder.
    Cheers, Tombi!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's a figure meant for advertising purposes. Print publications do the same - they call it 'circulation' - and how this is calculated is completely pie in the sky by a factor of 10 or 20. You can safely presume that the figure is grossly exaggerated.

    I did. It wouldn't surprise me if it included people using older radios whose dial stopped at RnaL for a few seconds wondering if they had the right station.

    Also, "blossoming Gaelscoil movement"... When did people start spouting this nonsense? I grew up in a somewhat anti-Irish household but there was one advantage. My father all but banned anything to do with the Irish language meaning that I wouldn't need another kick to my self esteem regarding the fact that I couldn't pick it up while being able to converse in French at the time.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I did. It wouldn't surprise me if it included people using older radios whose dial stopped at RnaL for a few seconds wondering if they had the right station.
    As I said, it's like 'circulation' in print media - there they add a multiplier (sometimes as high as x20) to denote 'how many people will read the same copy' of the publication. It's meant to bloat figures to make things look more attractive to potential advertisers.
    Also, "blossoming Gaelscoil movement"... When did people start spouting this nonsense?
    First time I remember hearing this argument was when a now rather famous TV comedian said this to me once back in the early nineties.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    There does appear to be a consistent pattern of vague or assumed numbers when it comes to Irish usage or listenership. Not to mention pretty obvious attempts to bury and fudge usage reports.
    I don't see how this does promotion of the Irish language any favours. It's all PR and no ignores the substance.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    There does appear to be a consistent pattern of vague or assumed numbers when it comes to Irish usage or listenership. Not to mention pretty obvious attempts to bury and fudge usage reports.
    I don't see how this does promotion of the Irish language any favours. It's all PR and no ignores the substance.

    As The Corinthian has said, it'll be down to self-interest more than concern for the language.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Also, "blossoming Gaelscoil movement"... When did people start spouting this nonsense?
    In hard numbers presented there does appear to be an increase in Gaelscoils over the last 30 years. I find it hard to believe there were only 11 schools delivering their curriculum through Irish in 1972, whether they were officially designated "Gaelscoil" or not.
    Does any of this translate to increased Irish usage outside the school? Apparently not. So what's the point?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    In hard numbers presented there does appear to be an increase in Gaelscoils over the last 30 years. I find it hard to believe there were only 11 schools delivering their curriculum through Irish in 1972, whether they were officially designated "Gaelscoil" or not.
    Does any of this translate to increased Irish usage outside the school? Apparently not. So what's the point?

    Just more babble about how the language is doing well and if we keep the system the way it is, or better/worse depending on perspective then our grandchildren might be somewhat proficient.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    It's a figure meant for advertising purposes. Print publications do the same - they call it 'circulation' - and how this is calculated is completely pie in the sky by a factor of 10 or 20. You can safely presume that the figure is grossly exaggerated.

    Are magazines figures not usually certified by 3rd party? Anyhow whatever about accuracy at the time the figures are now 5 years old.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    psinno wrote: »
    Are magazines figures not usually certified by 3rd party?
    Not always and even when they are they still accept practices that bloat the figures (although perhaps by less than if they had not been reviewed).

    Thing is Ireland is a small market; I remember discussing this with a publisher and he said that Hugh Hefner once commented that he was disappointed with the sales of the first issue of Playboy, which were I think something like 26k, and were it an Irish publication he would have been absolutely ecstatic. So bloating these figures in Irish media is common practice to keep the rate card prices up.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    psinno wrote: »
    Are magazines figures not usually certified by 3rd party? Anyhow whatever about accuracy at the time the figures are now 5 years old.

    I would have thought that if they were then that fact would be advertised to demonstrate authenticity.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 Irish_man2015


    Just watching the news and the Irish language is failing, even in the Gaeltacht.

    I dont want to get into a debate with the misty eyed brigade about Irish being our first language etc.

    Languages are only relevant if they are used. History or nationalism doesn't appear to be enough.

    So with that in mind, how can we improve the position of Irish? Do we want to?

    While it will never be our first language again, considering mass culture and the internet age, is there a case to be made for a strong second language?

    Or should we look elsewhere? I guess I'm inviting the "let's all learn Chinese" gang to join the discussion.
    The Irish language is failing? Really? In my opinion, the language failed a long time ago! To be honest, I'm not trying to be controversial, there is no need for the language anymore, not with the changes that have happened and continue to happen, for example the Celtic Tiger Era, piles and piles of foreigners came and settled here, their kids started to attend English speaking schools, the recession happened, most fluent Irish speakers moved away to Australia and America, new generation of Irish people are not mixed, Eastern Europeans and the rest, no interest in learning a forgotten language. We don't realize how lucky we are as native English speakers, we are one of the 7 native speaking countries in the world, thousands and thousands of internation students come to Ireland every year to learn English and businesses expand on Irish shores, knowing well that they can create international business linking Ireland with those distant countries, bringing in billions in revenue. I know some people will say but it's our language, tradition, etc....but we have to face reality., we haven't used Irish as a first language for close to 900 years, so it's time pointless looking at the buts and what ifs!!!! English is expanding all over the globe at an extreme rate, languages are being marginalized and shadowed, look at Asia now, look at South America, most people are now bilingual, refusing to use their native language anymore, especially for work,70% of internation trade is dealt with in English, and this number is rising. I recently met a guy from Hungary and his wife is Polish, their kid doesn't speak Hungarian or Polish, he only speaks English. My close group of friends, one is Indian, Lithuanian, Chinese and Indonesian, as you may guess none of their children speak their native language, and this will not change. It's looking like a generation or 2 or maybe 3, we will see one universal language, everything else may get wiped out!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    I would have thought that if they were then that fact would be advertised to demonstrate authenticity.

    I'm sure it would. I was talking generally not specific to this case. I remember a magazine I read in the 90s having a circulation figure on it provided by ABC which seems to stand for Audit Bureau of Circulations.


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