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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1892
    youngblood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭youngblood


    It should be banned/outlawed completely and see what happens then


  • #1893
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No one wants to deprave anyone of anything, we just want Irish made optional. Is that hard to understand?

    Oh I understand but there's two problems
    1. No one has presented evidence that the majority want it optional,
    2. You might want Irish optional, I might want English literature optional, DanSolo might want Maths optional - unless you want an A-levels approach where all subjects are optional then you can't please everybody.

    I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.


  • #1894
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Oh I understand but there's two problems
    1. No one has presented evidence that the majority want it optional,
    2. You might want Irish optional, I might want English literature optional, DanSolo might want Maths optional - unless you want an A-levels approach where all subjects are optional then you can't please everybody.

    I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.
    1. Why do I need to provide evidence for something I haven't claimed?
    2. That's fine, let's have all subjects optional. I would prefer to have maths stay compulsory but I'm willing to accept optional maths as a compromise for optional Irish.


  • #1895
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    1. Why do I need to provide evidence for something I haven't claimed?
    2. That's fine, let's have all subjects optional.

    1. I think the onus tends to be on the people who want the change to establish the grounds and support they have...
    2. Nothing wrong with that - it is consistent... but that isn't what some other posters here believe...


  • #1896
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dughorm wrote: »
    1. I think the onus tends to be on the people who want the change to establish the grounds and support they have...
    2. Nothing wrong with that - it is consistent... but that isn't what some other posters here believe...
    1. Not really, people's rights should not be subject to democratic will. I believe the forced teaching of Irish violates a student's (and parent's when the child is under 18) rights to choose their own education.


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  • #1897
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.

    Adequate for what? The enhancemetn and status of Irish as a flourishing langauge?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1898
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    1. Not really, people's rights should not be subject to democratic will. I believe the forced teaching of Irish violates a student's (and parent's when the child is under 18) rights to choose their own education.

    Do you feel your human rights are being violated? Have you considered getting legal advice? Constitutional challenge perhaps?


  • #1899
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Do you feel your human rights are being violated? Have you considered getting legal advice? Constitutional challenge perhaps?
    Now you're being flippant.


  • #1900
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Adequate for what? The enhancemetn and status of Irish as a flourishing langauge?

    Adequate as a foundation for a broad liberal arts education - students also have the flexibility to pursue other courses in business, the sciences, arts etc... I think it's a fair mix.

    The exam mill approach doesn't help Irish flourish, neither does it enhance our appreciation of literature and poetry in English in my opinion.


  • #1901
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Now you're being flippant.

    That was free legal advice....


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  • #1902
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Dughorm wrote: »
    That was free legal advice....
    Why do you fear optional Irish? Do you think that will kill the language?


  • #1903
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Why do you fear optional Irish? Do you think that will kill the language?

    I don't think it is reasonable for Irish to be optional and English to be mandatory as the syllabi currently stand. Being consistent - having an 'all optional' stance is reasonable!


  • #1904
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Dughorm wrote: »
    The language has been in decline for a few hundred years - you must agree?!

    Yes I agree.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    But that's not the point, there have been incremental improvements, such as gaelscoileanna, retirement of Peig, 40%+ Oral Irish exam - you must agree?!

    Yes I agree.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    Loads of things -
    Junior Cert Oral Irish Exam
    Additional optional subject for literature and poetry "celtic studies"
    Primary school 'turas scoile' to the Gaeltacht
    Gaeltacht immersion trips in non-exam years
    Continuous assessment - community expression of Irish etc...

    I could go on.... but I think the 40%+ Oral Irish should be given a chance to bed down - it certainly puts those lazy "dead-language" notes-only Irish teachers on the back foot!

    Yes indeed, but dare I say, Tinkering, tinkering, and more tinkering with some new variations on the same old compulsory theme!

    What you're suggesting there just sounds to sluggish and presumptuous to me, specifically the Gaeltacht immersion trips for children! How many parents do you think would subscribe to that?

    And then what about the community expression in Irish, how would that work? OK the continuous assessment is no harm, but its hardly going to help ignite the language back into life . . .

    The only thing that I can see having an effect on injecting some much needed life blood into the veins of the Irish language are the many Gaelscoils that keep popping up around the country. But even these Irish speaking schools are small fry, in the grand scheme of things IMO.

    Which leaves something that's been mooted many times, but never tried, which takes me back to my previous post #1855.

    To be honest I don't really disagree with what you say, its just that I there still seems to be a piece of the jigsaw missing, like a really big piece that's been missing for several generations, when people didn't need to be pushed/ coeresed into speaking the Irish language.

    If students want to learn Irish then that's great, but I think it does the language no favours at all to have everybody forced to do something that is currently a "niche language" in a country that speaks English as our 1st language.

    So Goodnight 4now.

    PS: really glad the Empire/Rising folk have buggered off for the last few pages :-)


  • #1905
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The thing is this is one of the central pillars of the pro-compulsory Irish brigade argument: that Irish people really really really want to speak Irish all the time but it was never taught to them properly.
    The simple fact that nobody wants to speak Irish that is staring them in the face can never once be admitted is true.

    I think there are plenty who would like to speak Irish, they are just not willing to put in the effort to learn it. They would rather just keep it compulsory in school because we all see how well that system produces fluent speakers.


  • #1906
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Adequate as a foundation for a broad liberal arts education - students also have the flexibility to pursue other courses in business, the sciences, arts etc... I think it's a fair mix.

    The exam mill approach doesn't help Irish flourish, neither does it enhance our appreciation of literature and poetry in English in my opinion.

    I'd argue it;s anything but liberel for the exact same reason you menion - the exam mill. But that's digressing even further.

    We're supposed to be talking abotu a langauge and instead we're talking about a school subject that probably bears little or no resemblance to said language. Why waste time and resources on a practice that will never give you any return on your investment via a large section of people who have no interest or desire to be a part of it?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1907
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Oh I understand but there's two problems
    1. No one has presented evidence that the majority want it optional,
    Nobody has asked them. But we do have have ample evidence that the majority of the population, when it becomes optional, do not speak Irish and make no effort whatever to learn it.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.
    So, you agree with a policy which damages the Irish language? I thought you were pro-Gaelige? Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion?

    The present system of coercion is an admission of failure. It's time for Gealgeoirs to think outside of the box.


  • #1908
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion? The present system of coercion is an admission of failure. It's time for Gealgeoirs to think outside of the box.

    Perhaps by not making it crystal clear to interested immigrants that they're crazy even to ask? (Thanks to those who have been encouraging despite their puzzlement.)


  • #1909
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.
    And why should Irish be one of these mandatory subjects, when for example, even Polish is a more useful language to have in this very country?


  • #1910
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And why should Irish be one of these mandatory subjects, when for example, even Polish is a more useful language to have in this very country?

    And the spelling conventions are not that much better, either. :D


  • #1911
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    The present system of coercion is an admission of failure.
    Quite. It must be the first time in history any government has had to force its population to do something they apparently all wanted to do anyway.


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  • #1912
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

    IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

    Then we have the population at large who (after eight decades) show no sign of starting to speak Irish instead of English. Then we have the language of Business/Commerce which is unlikely to abandon English in favour of Irish, which leaves what? Irish being spoken at home (I doubt it), Irish being spoken in pubs and restaurants? No sign of that either.

    So the only place we can guarantee that Irish will be spoken across the country is in school, which takes us back to to the top of this post . . .
    IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

    Solution; Take the mandatory teaching out of the equation, let the language breath and find its own equilibrium, (its natural level) in Irish society, then take it from there, without the need for force feeding. This I suspect would take the negative connotation away from the Irish language, virtually overnight.

    Maybe then the language does have a bright future?
    but not in the current "mandatory Irish for all" teaching system which has failed for so long.


  • #1913
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Then we have the population at large who (after eight decades) show no sign of starting to speak Irish instead of English. Then we have the language of Business/Commerce which is unlikely to abandon English in favour of Irish, which leaves what? Irish being spoken at home (I doubt it), Irish being spoken in pubs and restaurants? No sign of that either.
    Looking at the locations in Ireland where the 1% who habitually use Irish live, I think it's very clear that making Irish optional won't negatively affect the current usage one bit. These are all places where Irish is spoken at home anyway.


  • #1914
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    So, you agree with a policy which damages the Irish language? I thought you were pro-Gaelige? Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion?

    The present system of coercion is an admission of failure. It's time for Gealgeoirs to think outside of the box.

    If the compulsory Irish apologists were capable of thinking outside the box then I'd say we'd be having this debate as Gaelige.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1915
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

    Pretty much this. We'll still be codding ourselves that we are somehow a bilingual nation 50, hell, maybe 100 years from now. The vested interests are far too powerful and have the ear of local TDs and are firmly nested in government (many of them being ex-teachers and all) to allow any change.

    A reminder of what happened when FG made a cautious peep that Irish might become optional...
    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/fine-gaels-proposal-to-make-the-irish-language-optional-at-school-is-rejected-see-poll-116221609-237369721.html

    http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/language-activists-blast-fgs-plan-to-make-irish-optional-26613367.html

    http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-language-students-protest-at-being-dumped-by-fine-gael-84116-Feb2011/

    It's an exercise in national self-delusion. What a country we would be if people could get this worked up about our health system and batter ruling political parties into submission.


  • #1916
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    We're supposed to be talking abotu a langauge and instead we're talking about a school subject that probably bears little or no resemblance to said language. Why waste time and resources on a practice that will never give you any return on your investment via a large section of people who have no interest or desire to be a part of it?

    Couldnt agree more, and by the way Princess, I've only just got around to reading #1806, thanks for that. This thread seems to have recovered nicely, since 'they' sidestepped into another forum :)


  • #1917
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Same could be said for religion, drawing, english literature etc... - it's as relevant as you want it to be!!! but why be deprived the opportunity of a liberal arts education?

    Relevance is not a matter of choice!!!
    Otherwise I could learn flintknapping and say "It is relevant because I say it is relevant!". I would then bitterly complain that there are no facilities for learning it and no jobs as a flintknapper. My complaints would also be irrelevant.
    So as you see, relevance is not up to anyone to decide, it is not even decided, it just is. You can disagree with it, but it would be like disagreeing with Tuesdays.
    If you now say that all dem malarkey with computhers, (other) languages and mathematics, sure who needs it, it's not relevant, well, I have bad news. In today's world you stay relevant or you sink without at race. It is fast moving, it has to be up to date and if what you got ain't it, you ain't going nowhere.
    So, of course anyone who wants, can learn Irish. Just be aware that it is on par with flintknapping. To say that you can learn all this through Irish, very nice, but it is just adding needless complication and work, to make everything else more complicated and exclude students who may have trouble with languages. Do we want this? An education system that says "If you can't master Irish, your career options are severely limited". Not everyone has an aptitude for languages, most likely people with real skills that require true brains, like maths and science.
    Irish is an optional add-on, it should NEVER make it harder for anyone to get proper, useful skills. Or are we getting so hardline that we say "we will gladly flush a few careers down the toilet, as long as we can force more people to learn it"? Are we willing to damage the country for this vanity project?
    If we did indeed brought Irish back at the expense of English only speakers, jobs, the economy, Ireland's place as an international business hub (we'd be more like Lithuania), would it be worth it? IMO, no, it would severely damage the country.


  • #1918
    OMD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Regardless of whether the currently policy makes sense or doesn't, or is well executed or not, your concern is almost certainly driven by your own inability to come to terms with the language. The same can be said of most people making the argument, and can be easily gleaned from the pejorative and emotional language they use - like the post quoted above.

    I got an A in Irish in the leaving. For that matter I also got an A in maths. Irish has been totally and completely a waste of time.
    However, in Ireland, to go to University, it is essentially compulsory (I know some smart arse will come back saying it is not strictly compulsory) to do English, Irish, Maths and another language. So someone who is very good at languages and maths has a distinct advantage over someone who has a natural flair for science or business or the Arts. The system worked for me but that does not make the system a good system.

    Removing all compulsory subjects would be a very good thing but at least remove the compulsion on Irish and a foreign language would be a very good start.


  • #1919
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Who sets up what subjects are compulsory to enter university in Ireland, the schools themselves, some private regulatory body, or the government? I quite agree that no subjects should be compulsory, except as set by the university itself with respect to a particular course of study.


  • #1920
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Speedwell wrote: »
    Who sets up what subjects are compulsory to enter university in Ireland, the schools themselves, some private regulatory body, or the government? I quite agree that no subjects should be compulsory, except as set by the university itself with respect to a particular course of study.

    I think it is up to the university. Afaik it is only universities that were founded as a Catholic alternative to non denominational universities that have Irish as an entry requirement.


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  • #1921
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

    IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

    Then we have the population at large who (after eight decades) show no sign of starting to speak Irish instead of English. Then we have the language of Business/Commerce which is unlikely to abandon English in favour of Irish, which leaves what? Irish being spoken at home (I doubt it), Irish being spoken in pubs and restaurants? No sign of that either.

    So the only place we can guarantee that Irish will be spoken across the country is in school, which takes us back to to the top of this post . . .
    IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

    Solution; Take the mandatory teaching out of the equation, let the language breath and find its own equilibrium, (its natural level) in Irish society, then take it from there, without the need for force feeding. This I suspect would take the negative connotation away from the Irish language, virtually overnight.

    Maybe then the language does have a bright future?
    but not in the current "mandatory Irish for all" teaching system which has failed for so long.

    What evidence suggests that it will only be spoken in schools?

    I'm all for making the Irish language optional, and agree that something is going to have to change in the curriculum, but how would you know what language people will speak at home? I know plenty of people that speak nothing but Irish in their homes, especially in the west of the country and that also carry out their business through Irish. I don't see this changing. That's not to say they don't speak English at all but Irish would be their 1st language...English second and this will continue. Its a long line of tradition in families, and a tradition that will carry on.


    I agree that the start must come from school level and then work to make it more openly spoken. However, too many students across Ireland are learning from teachers that actually don't have much of a clue about the language themselves. This effects the students, hence spreading negativity within the language. There's even a 'Dublin Irish' in which people laugh about due to the way they mispronounce words among other things. This isn't right and its a half arsed job from a lot of teachers. (Not stating that every teacher is like this). Its failed at school level for so many reasons. This won't deter a minority of people from speaking the language
    but it certainly scare off the majority.

    Either way people have always written off the Irish language and have stated for years upon years that the language is completely dead or will die...but guess what? Its not. Now this may disappoint a few people in here. When I first started off in school I heard this argument being brushed about, yet here I am still speaking Irish.

    Its plain and simple that some people 'hate' the language. Yes I've used that wicked word hate. By no means for suggesting a change in the curriculum makes you a hater nor does it make you a hater if you simply do not want to speak or learn the language, that's completely your choice, but some comments in this thread have stemmed from their deep hatred of the language and when us people defending Irish point this out then we're all part of the hate brigade...Now in saying that the majority of the people on here have good arguments, even though I disagree with plenty of them I must respect your decision, but this 'hate brigade' is an easy way out for some people's arguments on here, and its down right disrespectful in some cases.

    We need to rid of the negativity that surrounds the language at school level so people choose to speak the language without having it shoved down their neck or to determine their future. It needs to be taught properly by teachers that have a full grasp on the Irish language. Changing the curriculum may increase Irish speakers...or it may not, we'll never know unless a change is implemented, just like we'll never know if the language will die in the future.

    There will always be Irish speakers but of course I would like to see a change and a positive approach taken towards the language in so people can willingly enjoy the language because deep down it is beautiful, poetic and teaches us a lot about where us Irish people came from.


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