DART+ (DART Expansion)

D.L.R. · 17-08-2015 9:58pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I guess if we spent on infrastructure like our international competitors a branch underground from Inchicore/Heuston to MN would be an obvious move....

And a single rail gauge always helps :rolleyes:

Sam Russell · 17-08-2015 9:59pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Northern Line capacity is the achilles heel there.

Well, MN, if built to Dart spec would be an alternative route to the airport.

But build DU and Clongriffin/airport spur first.

Sam Russell · 17-08-2015 10:01pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

And a single rail gauge always helps :rolleyes:

But think how much money we saved by building the Luas on the UK gauge rather than sticking to the 1.6m gauge. Why with those savings we could have joined up the two lines.

Thrashssacre · 17-08-2015 10:03pm

AngryLips wrote: »

It would make ultimate sense to terminate them at Dublin Airport via Clongriffin spur so that Dublin Airport can better serve as a hub for the entire country ...given that it's fast becoming that already.

I'd rather see the airport served from a spur off the maynooth line as I think there more scope for trains there plus if done at broombridge and something can be done about the junction just beyond the ppt too allow trains from the heuston side too access it I think it allows much more interchange and route options although this idea could be pricey which at the end of the day will be the most important factor too the government.

Schadenfreudia · 17-08-2015 10:07pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I'd rather see the airport served from a spur off the maynooth line as I think there more scope for trains there plus if done at broombridge and something can be done about the junction just beyond the ppt too allow trains from the heuston side too access

If you don't stitch in the DART and Luas lines you are missing probably half of the airport traffic.

Thrashssacre · 17-08-2015 10:13pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

If you don't stitch in the DART and Luas lines you are missing probably half of the airport traffic.

It would meet the luas green at broombridge and red at Connolly isn't the bray dart to be routed towards maynooth after dart underground is build anyways? They could send every second one too the airport Then any intercity train could reach anywhere in the country from the airport aswell apart from the northern line unless you turned around at connolly.

D.L.R. · 17-08-2015 10:14pm

Why the hell didn't they just build the airport beside the railway in the first place??

Schadenfreudia · 17-08-2015 10:16pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why the hell didn't they just build the airport beside the railway in the first place??

My God - Ccearly you don't understand the principles of Airportology!

...and neither do I

Thrashssacre · 17-08-2015 10:18pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why the hell didn't they just build the airport beside the railway in the first place??

In fairness I don't think they would have ever expected 25 million people a year traveling through it when the area was chosen the fact it Doesent have a rail link by now I think is less excusable it really should have been done a long time ago

Sam Russell · 17-08-2015 10:20pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

In fairness I don't think they would have ever expected 25 million people a year traveling through it when the area is chosen the fact it Doesent have a rail link by now I think is less excusable it really should have been done a long time ago

They should have built the railway station as part of the second terminal, together with a fully functioning bus station.

crushproof · 17-08-2015 10:31pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should have built the railway station as part of the second terminal, together with a fully functioning bus station.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what is this logical thinking you speak of???
Ohhhh right, the kind of thought that a 10 year old would have but not the planners of our fair country.

alias no.9 · 17-08-2015 10:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should have built the railway station as part of the second terminal, together with a fully functioning bus station.

They built a concourse in the basement of T1 for a future rail terminus back when it was built. It was used briefly as a check in area in the late '00s but I'm guessing it's back to storing e-voting machines or some such again.

Thrashssacre · 17-08-2015 10:40pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

They built a concourse in the basement of T1 for a future rail terminus back when it was built. It was used briefly as a check in area in the late '00s but I'm guessing it's back to storing e-voting machines or some such again.

Were Irish rail planning too use this for the clongriffin spur?

alias no.9 · 17-08-2015 10:51pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Were Irish rail planning too use this for the clongriffin spur?

No idea but I could see a station built as part of T2 being similarly redundant for 40 years

Thrashssacre · 17-08-2015 10:52pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

No idea but I could see a station built as part of T2 being similarly redundant for 40 years

Seamingly so with talks of the luas branch from cabra too serve the airport

Ren2k7 · 18-08-2015 2:16pm

It's good to see Irish Rail still aggressively pushing Dart U despite the govt pushing the upgrade of the hopelessly unsuitable Phoenix Park tunnel. I can imagine that's putting a fair degree of unwanted pressure on FGLAB to get moving on DU. The PPT is just a stop gap and not suitable as a long term solution to Dublin's public transport woes.

Schadenfreudia · 18-08-2015 2:22pm

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It's good to see Irish Rail still aggressively pushing Dart U despite the govt pushing the upgrade of the hopelessly unsuitable Phoenix Park tunnel. I can imagine that's putting a fair degree of unwanted pressure on FGLAB to get moving on DU. The PPT is just a stop gap and not suitable as a long term solution to Dublin's public transport woes.

On the wireless at one Paschal was quoted as saying (or maybe it was Irish Rail) that the PPT was in "no way" considered a substitute for DU.

Ren2k7 · 18-08-2015 3:04pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

On the wireless at one Paschal was quoted as saying (or maybe it was Irish Rail) that the PPT was in "no way" considered a substitute for DU.

We'll see soon enough. But it's quite obvious that the current government are very cool on DU and prefer the utterly insane BRT scheme.

Idbatterim · 18-08-2015 3:13pm

We'll see soon enough. But it's quite obvious that the current government are very cool on DU and prefer the utterly insane BRT scheme.

wouldnt surprise me, its a cheap poor option, the less money they have to "waste" on anything that isnt tax cuts or welfare increases, the better as far as they are concerned. I look / ed at Greece in disbelief, we are the next up for the banana republic award in Europe...

Its a total and utter shame that they hadnt signed contracts and started work on MN and DU before the **** hit the fan, it would have been the best several billion ever spent by the state here...

mackerski · 18-08-2015 3:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

But think how much money we saved by building the Luas on the UK gauge rather than sticking to the 1.6m gauge. Why with those savings we could have joined up the two lines.

There is no single rail gauge across main lines railways in the UK. Perhaps you mean Standard, International or European Gauge.

Schadenfreudia · 18-08-2015 3:42pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Its a total and utter shame that they hadnt signed contracts and started work on MN and DU before the **** hit the fan, it would have been the best several billion ever spent by the state here...

Not all the fault of the politicians; they are hugely facilitated by our desperate need for a "debate" every time we build a bus shelter!

Can't think of a single major project in the past twenty years that hasn't had endless debate about it's size, location etc etc.

After twenty years of delay the Irish Times opined the other day that we shouldn't rush the new Children's Hospital just 'cos each years delay will cost €70 million.

They suggested the congested site needs thorough analysis before going ahead; the same IT that campaigned for the hospital not to be located on the M50 - leading to the Parnell Sq mess and probably now to the James's St mess.

They made the same contribution to Luas and DU and MN - and about everything else. Endless controversy sells papers.....

Sam Russell · 18-08-2015 4:23pm

mackerski wrote: »

There is no single rail gauge across main lines railways in the UK. Perhaps you mean Standard, International or European Gauge.

I refer to the 4ft 8.5 inch gauge as the 'UK Gauge' as that is where it started. The only other gauge used in the UK is in NI, so that does not count. It was used in France because the French Railways were built by British engineers. It was easier for the railways to spread over Europe by keeping to the standard gauge.

Using the 4ft 8.5 inch for Luas made no sense as it produced a second standard when one would have done.

FreudianSlippers · 18-08-2015 4:26pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Not all the fault of the politicians; they are hugely facilitated by our desperate need for a "debate" every time we build a bus shelter!

Can't think of a single major project in the past twenty years that hasn't had endless debate about it's size, location etc etc.

After twenty years of delay the Irish Times opined the other day that we shouldn't rush the new Children's Hospital just 'cos each years delay will cost €70 million.

They suggested the congested site needs thorough analysis before going ahead; the same IT that campaigned for the hospital not to be located on the M50 - leading to the Parnell Sq mess and probably now to the James's St mess.

They made the same contribution to Luas and DU and MN - and about everything else. Endless controversy sells papers.....

You've kind of inadvertently proved another point though: Everyone wants their 2 cents. All the people arguing it should be in a greenfield out on the M50 in the face of medical evidence to support tri-location, the people worried about the "character" of the Mater area, etc.

We tend to let a hell of a lot of people with no business being involved give their opinion.

cgcsb · 18-08-2015 4:51pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I refer to the 4ft 8.5 inch gauge as the 'UK Gauge' as that is where it started. The only other gauge used in the UK is in NI, so that does not count. It was used in France because the French Railways were built by British engineers. It was easier for the railways to spread over Europe by keeping to the standard gauge.

Using the 4ft 8.5 inch for Luas made no sense as it produced a second standard when one would have done.

the international standard is 4ft 8.5 inches. We have to buy trams from other countries like France, Germany and South Korea. It's easier and cheaper to buy an off the shelf product rather than buy a bespoke Irish gauge tram that'd have to be made specially for Ireland.

An Irish Gauge tram would also present design challenges for Dublin's street running trams where space is tight enough.

D.L.R. · 18-08-2015 5:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

the international standard is 4ft 8.5 inches. We have to buy trams from other countries like France, Germany and South Korea. It's easier and cheaper to buy an off the shelf product rather than buy a bespoke Irish gauge tram that'd have to be made specially for Ireland.

An Irish Gauge tram would also present design challenges for Dublin's street running trams where space is tight enough.

I wonder if dual gauge is possible for our two particular gauges

Schadenfreudia · 18-08-2015 5:46pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We tend to let a hell of a lot of people with no business being involved give their opinion.

A system that couldn't deliver the hospital in 20 years is broke - and in need of fixing.

Giving their opinion is a right in a democracy - allowing third party planning objections isn't - it's just a daft decision we are, collectively, paying for every day.

In all sorts of ways.

Ren2k7 · 18-08-2015 6:13pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Not all the fault of the politicians; they are hugely facilitated by our desperate need for a "debate" every time we build a bus shelter!

Can't think of a single major project in the past twenty years that hasn't had endless debate about it's size, location etc etc.

After twenty years of delay the Irish Times opined the other day that we shouldn't rush the new Children's Hospital just 'cos each years delay will cost €70 million.

They suggested the congested site needs thorough analysis before going ahead; the same IT that campaigned for the hospital not to be located on the M50 - leading to the Parnell Sq mess and probably now to the James's St mess.

They made the same contribution to Luas and DU and MN - and about everything else. Endless controversy sells papers.....

Why can't policy makers and planners just ignore the Property Times? They bear much of the blame for pumping up the property market during the "boom" years so for them to now be calling for a "thorough anaylsis" of much needed infrastructure projects is truly quite contemptable.

Sam Russell · 18-08-2015 10:21pm

cgcsb wrote: »

An Irish Gauge tram would also present design challenges for Dublin's street running trams where space is tight enough.

It is 165 mm (or 6 and half inches) wider, and only at the wheels/bogies. Even the lads that hot up their hatches can manage that - hardly a major design challenge. The bigger problem would be the 750 volts if the Dart and Luas were mixed. Anyway trams would not be bought off the shelf as the design for each market. For example France (where the Luas trams are made) has several versions of the tram with quite demanding special requirements. In Bordeau they have underground power an in Nice they have battery power, and designing different bogies is hardly rocket science.

I cannot believe the gauge could save enough to join the two Luas lines ( well it clearly didn't).

richiek83 · 18-08-2015 10:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

wouldnt surprise me, its a cheap poor option, the less money they have to "waste" on anything that isnt tax cuts or welfare increases, the better as far as they are concerned. I look / ed at Greece in disbelief, we are the next up for the banana republic award in Europe...

Its a total and utter shame that they hadnt signed contracts and started work on MN and DU before the **** hit the fan, it would have been the best several billion ever spent by the state here...

Really was. The previous Government's Four Year Plan done at the time of the bailout actually had in it, funds earmarked, to proceed with Metro North if I remember correctly. The new Government reviewed all spending plans including capital plans and this is how the LUAS Cross City got the go ahead.

Grandeeod · 18-08-2015 10:46pm

richiek83 wrote: »

Really was. The previous Government's Four Year Plan done at the time of the bailout actually had in it, funds earmarked, to proceed with Metro North if I remember correctly. The new Government reviewed all spending plans including capital plans and this is how the LUAS Cross City got the go ahead.

2005. T21. Funds were ringfenced.:rolleyes:

richiek83 · 18-08-2015 11:01pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

2005. T21. Funds were ringfenced.:rolleyes:

Apologies, funds weren't earmarked. The plan stated "Key objectives of public transport investment will be to advance public transport projects like Metro North and Dart Underground, as well as rail safety and traffic management programmes and continued planning of future priorities". At this point though, Metro North and DART Underground had received ABP approval.

Grandeeod · 18-08-2015 11:14pm

richiek83 wrote: »

Apologies, funds weren't earmarked. The plan stated "Key objectives of public transport investment will be to advance public transport projects like Metro North and Dart Underground, as well as rail safety and traffic management programmes and continued planning of future priorities". At this point though, Metro North and DART Underground had received ABP approval.

The roll eyes to heaven thing wasnt meant in a disingenuous way. I was merely referring to T21 in 2005, which at a time of great wealth was all talk and feck all else.

D.L.R. · 19-08-2015 12:32am

richiek83 wrote: »

Really was. The previous Government's Four Year Plan done at the time of the bailout actually had in it, funds earmarked, to proceed with Metro North if I remember correctly. The new Government reviewed all spending plans including capital plans and this is how the LUAS Cross City got the go ahead.

They were already half way out the door when the four year plan was published, nobody was thinking about public transport.

Idbatterim · 19-08-2015 10:43am

Wasn't Luas cross city planned even before the crash? I have witnessed first hand the chaos it is causing to the bus network in particular, when I tried to get down to the quays from ranelagh a while ago, absolute joke... I should have gotten out and walked from dawson street...

Schadenfreudia · 19-08-2015 10:51am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Wasn't Luas cross city planned even before the crash? I have witnessed first hand the chaos it is causing to the bus network in particular, when I tried to get down to the quays from ranelagh a while ago, absolute joke... I should have gotten out and walked from dawson street...

It certainly was; as was the Lucan luas and the Green Line extension to Bray.

There was a lot of issues with the Harcourt St section when it was being built (though I don't remember too many problems with the Red Line)

But how can you build a cross-city centre on-street railway line without serious disruption?

Maybe build critical sections at night?

lbj666 · 19-08-2015 4:07pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

It certainly was; as was the Lucan luas and the Green Line extension to Bray.

There was a lot of issues with the Harcourt St section when it was being built (though I don't remember too many problems with the Red Line)

But how can you build a cross-city centre on-street railway line without serious disruption?

Maybe build critical sections at night?

Not always a goer because of complaints from people living , staying in the city centre, people forget that.

Idbatterim · 19-08-2015 4:23pm

It certainly was; as was the Lucan luas and the Green Line extension to Bray.

There was a lot of issues with the Harcourt St section when it was being built (though I don't remember too many problems with the Red Line)

But how can you build a cross-city centre on-street railway line without serious disruption?

Maybe build critical sections at night?

they need to start connecting the lines, it would make a big difference to numbers using the service and viability of lines. Also it would actually give some people the option of ditching the car...

Dublin needs a serious pile of money thrown at it to sort out decades of neglect...

Carawaystick · 19-08-2015 6:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Wasn't Luas cross city planned even before the crash? I have witnessed first hand the chaos it is causing to the bus network in particular, when I tried to get down to the quays from ranelagh a while ago, absolute joke... I should have gotten out and walked from dawson street...

But when it's built, you can get a tram for your journey.

Almost all infrastructure improvements cause disruption during construction.

salmocab · 19-08-2015 9:30pm

could the luas cross city be extended out to blanchardstown from broom bridge to pick up the new children's hospital that will probably end up there when its built in the the very distant future

Schadenfreudia · 19-08-2015 9:33pm

salmocab wrote: »

could the luas cross city be extended out to blanchardstown from broom bridge to pick up the new children's hospital that will probably end up there when its built in the the very distant future

Very prescient!

mackerski · 20-08-2015 8:48am

salmocab wrote: »

could the luas cross city be extended out to blanchardstown from broom bridge to pick up the new children's hospital that will probably end up there when its built in the the very distant future

We already have a real train running on a segregated alignment along the canal. Better to make that a proper frequent service.

FreudianSlippers · 20-08-2015 9:11am

salmocab wrote: »

could the luas cross city be extended out to blanchardstown from broom bridge

Probably not given the site width after Broombridge.

to pick up the new children's hospital that will probably end up there when its built in the the very distant future

God I hope not. Connolly is a ****hole of the highest proportion and doesn't fit the criteria for a Children's Hospital in the slightest.

I also swear anyone advocating building a hospital on the M50 has probably not driven on the M50 in the past 5 years.

Carawaystick · 20-08-2015 9:40am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I also swear anyone advocating building a hospital on the M50 has probably not driven on the M50 in the past 5 years.

Whereas Thomas street is perfect...

FreudianSlippers · 20-08-2015 9:55am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Whereas Thomas street is perfect...

Not saying that (I think the Mater had significant advantages as a site personally); just saying this M50 holy grail is a red herring. Particularly so given it's really nowhere near being a tri-location site (or even a proper hospital in reality).

As an aside to this conversation but on the topic(-ish) of the thread, who the hell taking the Luas to the hospital?

Schadenfreudia · 20-08-2015 10:28am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I also swear anyone advocating building a hospital on the M50 has probably not driven on the M50 in the past 5 years.

I travel it several times every day - and I think it is an obvious location for the hospital.

Having said that I hope they just build it at James St - the priority is to just f***ing build it - it's turning into yet another infrastructure-in-Dublin farce.

But I'd not be surprised if the dysfunctional system, aided by the Irish Times, manages to screw it up.

If that happens nobody will ever again try and build it in the city centre. It will be Tallaght, Blanch or some greenfield site near the M50.

markpb · 20-08-2015 10:28am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As an aside to this conversation but on the topic(-ish) of the thread, who the hell taking the Luas to the hospital?

I do it every time we go to Crumlin (Green Line + bus) for my daughters check-up. I'd imagine lots of staff do the same. People seem to have this odd image that people only enter hospitals through A&E.

Grandeeod · 20-08-2015 10:31am

markpb wrote: »

I do it every time we go to Crumlin (Green Line + bus) for my daughters check-up. I'd imagine lots of staff do the same. People seem to have this odd image that people only enter hospitals through A&E.

We did Kildare line + luas and walk to Temple Street for check ups.

Schadenfreudia · 20-08-2015 10:32am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

If that happens nobody will ever again try and build it in the city centre. It will be Tallaght, Blanch or some greenfield site near the M50.

In fact, if they build DU a site near the M50 and a commuter line would be ideal from a national access perspective...which puts Connelly very much in the frame.

Schadenfreudia · 20-08-2015 10:38am

markpb wrote: »

I do it every time we go to Crumlin (Green Line + bus) for my daughters check-up. I'd imagine lots of staff do the same. People seem to have this odd image that people only enter hospitals through A&E.

I had an student working in Crumlin all through summer 2014 - I'd drive her there via the M50 every morning and she'd take the Red Line/Green line back.

Very reliable - both trips.

With DU and the motorway system - everywhere would be plugged in to an M50 site.

Sam Russell · 20-08-2015 10:39am

Does the DU not go to Heuston, just a short trip on th red line or a stiff walk up the hill?

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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