Is the Western World anti-man?

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:22PM

blatantrereg wrote: »

Of course they do. It's just you interpret the word feminist to mean someone who goes on about things you consider frivolous. Feminist just means believing in equal treatment of the sexes. Most people on this thread seem to favour that idea, they just have different perceptions of what the differences are in how members of each sex are treated currently.

'Feminist just means believing in equal treatment of the sexes.'

Haha good one. A hundred years ago maybe. Now's it about advancing the cause of women at the expense of men. Which is fine if that's what you want to support, just don't lie that's it's about 'equality'.

sunshine and showers · 19-08-2015 04:22PM

super_furry wrote: »

The boys go to Mars to get more bars,
The girls go to Jupiter to get more stupider!

Funny, I learned that one the other way around.

NachoBusiness · 19-08-2015 04:23PM

Sham Squire wrote: »

Men crying about the unfairness in the world are like white people claiming that they're being "invaded" by people of colour. If either of these are your actually held opinion; not only are you just plain wrong, but you're an oxygen thief and the world would be a better place without you. That is all.

The fact that you would refer to the OP raising these concerns as "crying" and then go onto describe anyone that shares his views as oxygen thieves, just helps make their point tbf, not in anyway negate it, as you seem to suggest it does.

Carlos Orange · 19-08-2015 04:26PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

The fact that you would refer to the OP raising these concerns as "crying" and then go onto describe anyone that shares his views as oxygen thieves, just helps make their point tbf, not in anyway negate it, as you seem to suggest it does.

It is just standard old white men nonsense that is getting transplanted from the US.

desertcircus · 19-08-2015 04:26PM

orubiru wrote: »

Your first paragraph is a total misrepresentation of both Gamergate and Anita Sarkeesians work.

You claim that you want society to "catch up" but at the same time you appear to have no qualms whatsoever about misrepresenting people in order to get your point across.

I'm not saying you've done that intentionally but you've still done it.

Your post, to me, represents a major part of the problem online. Someone pops up, makes some inaccurate claims, then disappears again. People either agree or disagree with your post but the fact remains that you have not really given an honest description of gamergate (can anyone even agree on what "gamergate" actually is?) and I'm not really sure that you understand Anita Sarkeesians agenda at all.

Pretty much everyone who isn't deranged is in total agreement on what Gamergate was: vicious, misogynistic slut-shaming perpetrated by entitled sociopaths.

strelok · 19-08-2015 04:27PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Pretty much everyone who isn't deranged is in total agreement on what Gamergate was: vicious, misogynistic slut-shaming perpetrated by entitled sociopaths.

rofl

kinsy · 19-08-2015 04:27PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Yeah you're right actually. Now I remember all the slut walks protesting over what happened in Rotherham.

A fine, reductive argument.

How about talking to a feminist that you know and asking them their opinion? I'm afraid to tell you, you know loads of them.

19-08-2015 04:28PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

The fact that you would refer to the OP raising these concerns as "crying" and then go onto describe anyone that shares his views as oxygen thieves, just helps make their point tbf, not in anyway negate it, as you seem to appear to suggest it does.

And this is exactly the point I'm trying to make - men shouldn't be treated like they deserve it when they speak about issues affecting them.

There's a song I always think about with this topic -

In a haze these days
I pull up to the stop light
I can feel that something's not right
I can feel that someone's blasting me with hate
And bass
Sendin' dirty vibes my way
'Cause my great great great great Grandad
Made someones' great great great great Grandaddies slaves
It wasn't my idea
It wasn't my idea
Never was my idea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34u_3Z9_LUw

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:29PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Pretty much everyone who isn't deranged is in total agreement on what Gamergate was: vicious, misogynistic slut-shaming perpetrated by entitled sociopaths.

But Anita Sarkeesian wants to ban smiles and take my penis away!

Misandry!

Note: my phone tried to autocorrect "misandry" to "Miranda". The plot thickens...

steddyeddy · 19-08-2015 04:29PM

Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »

I think it is clear to see for anyone who can think for themselves that the western world is currently extremely anti-man. The examples are everywhere, from gender quotas to cries of "sexual harrassment" for being stared at. Misandry is now acceptable in most areas of life, whilst any attempt to point this out is usually received with a backlash of abuse, and quite ironically, more misandry.

In my opinion the media and large portions of the Internet are doing their best to attach a shame to being male, similarly to what's happening to white people. Somehow it's my fault for being male and therefore benefitting from this imaginary "male privilege", and I should be ashamed of that. Nonsense.

I'm sick to the back teeth of attempts being made to make me feel bad about my masculinity. I'm a man, and I'm proud of that fact. I hope everyone feels the same way about themselves, even those who have changed gender.

The equality movement has gone too far.

Well I don't think equality can go too far. I think the problem is some groups say they're for equality yet suggest things such as gender quotas which promote inequality. I read an article a week ago about some men taking rejection badly. The article started with "dear men", which was a bit insulting TBH. I've met some crazy women but I wouldn't write an article addressed to all women.

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:32PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And this is exactly the point I'm trying to make - men shouldn't be treated like they deserve it when they speak about issues affecting them.

There's a song I always think about with this topic -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34u_3Z9_LUw

I always took that song to be itself a satire of white privilege.

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:34PM

kinsy wrote: »

A fine, reductive argument.

How about talking to a feminist that you know and asking them their opinion? I'm afraid to tell you, you know loads of them.

Ok tell me me why feminists were silent on the matter?

Wibbs · 19-08-2015 04:34PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

In fact, the source you linked cites a near 14% pay gap for women with children vs men in general.

Why? Simple question. Answer? They work fewer hours. Show me examples where women in the same jobs working the same hours for the same number of years get paid less in the corporate West. In corporate America Asian Americans earn more than European Americans, as do subcontinental Indians, does this mean there's an anti White bias in the American corporate world? Eh… no, it means they work harder for longer in jobs that pay more.

And explicitly references a glass ceiling for women in higher earning positions, where the pay gap is nearly 25%.

How many women start companies compared to men? How many women fight tooth and nail for decades to claw their way to the top? A lot fewer. Hell, precious few men do. In any event elites in any society are best left out of the debate, otherwise we're down the rabbit hole of "a tiny percentage of white straight men are in power, therefore all straight white men are baaaad. Patriarchy!!".

TL;DR - sorry, but it's not bs.

In the West it is and increasingly so. You won't have to live much longer to see it reverse even more. More men than women are out of work in the west and more women than men are finishing third level education. The average western woman is better educated, healthier, will live longer, less likely to die violently or at work and has more social protection, both from society and government. Men are far more the disposable gender and it has always been thus.

desertcircus · 19-08-2015 04:35PM

Kev W wrote: »

I always took that song to be itself a satire of white privilege.

Given that the quoted lyrics are at best an incredibly simplistic description of the origins of black American anger, I would hope so...

19-08-2015 04:35PM

Kev W wrote: »

I always took that song to be itself a satire of white privilege.

I always took that segment to be about white people making feel like they should apologize for slavery. Guess that's sort of the point of a good song - it's open to interpretation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEyrfFwf3rI

Another Ben Folds Five song. Because Fraggle Rock. And Anna Kendrick.

kinsy · 19-08-2015 04:41PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Ok tell me me why feminists were silent on the matter?

Well, I don't know that they were. I have an opinion on it and I'm a feminist. Do you only see feminists as a select group of extreme thinkers who speak out in the media? If you do, it may explain your issue with us.

ceadaoin. · 19-08-2015 04:41PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

'Feminist just means believing in equal treatment of the sexes.'

Haha good one. A hundred years ago maybe. Now's it about advancing the cause of women at the expense of men. Which is fine if that's what you want to support, just don't lie that's it's about 'equality'.

Well when one group has had so many privileges for so long, it's impossible to create true equality without removing some of those privileges. Obviously some of that group will feel entitled to those privileges after enjoying them for so long and feel hard done by and victimized but that isn't the case. The world wide pay gap shows that things are far from equal for women.

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:43PM

kinsy wrote: »

Well, I don't know that they were. I have an opinion on it and I'm a feminist. Do you only see feminists as a select group of extreme thinkers who speak out in the media? If you do, it may explain your issue with us.

So what's your opinion?

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:45PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Ok tell me me why feminists were silent on the matter?

Tell us why you think feminists are silent on the matter?

One eyed Jack · 19-08-2015 04:45PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

They can call themselves feminists all they like - that doesn't mean they are right. Feminism = gender equality for women. True equality means gaining rights for women and, at the same time, giving rights to men. That means that yes, I can support men's issues and say it's in the name of feminism.

It does though, because that is their truth", and you have your truth and I have my truth. This is the new language of "social justice", where reality is indeed substituted with false ideologies. Feminism traditionally meant advocating for women, on behalf of women. Because of the rise in individualism, now anyone can self-identify as feminist, it's great, even guys can identify as feminist (cringe worthy and all as that is).

Feminism - female. Nothing at all to do with men or men's rights or men's welfare.

Individualism - I can take whatever word, or words, or ideology I want, and completely twist it's definition beyond any commonly used and understood definition, thereby completely tailoring it to my needs... and if people don't like that, they're oppressing me. Meanies (although some bunny rabbits on tumblr would wish to have my balls off with a rusty razor if I dared remind them that they aren't all that fcuking special or unique).

(Men's issues include mental health, sexual assault, domestic abuse. Men's issues do not include "that Diet Coke ad is sexualising me!!11!! - I have a limit.)

So do I, and if you want to call yourself a feminist because you get behind advocating for men and the issues and influences that affect men, then I don't care how you identify yourself tbh, and if you want me to call you a feminist, you're a feminist. Identity politics isn't a big deal to me, I'm far more interested in what you can do than who you are.

orubiru · 19-08-2015 04:45PM

Sham Squire wrote: »

Men crying about the unfairness in the world are like white people claiming that they're being "invaded" by people of colour. If either of these are your actually held opinion; not only are you just plain wrong, but you're an oxygen thief and the world would be a better place without you. That is all.

No.

People claiming they're "being invaded by people of colour" are probably going to turn out to be detestable characters and not the kind of people that decent folks would want to spend any amount of time with.

I am pretty sure that some men would be perfectly justified in crying about the unfairness in the world. If you asked say the homeless men in Dublin or men who were victims of the Catholic Church in their youth and ask them "has life treated you fairly" are you telling me that you'd gladly call them "oxygen thieves" if they're response was "no life is actually not really that fair".

When you say "Men" do you actually mean "Rich Men" or something like that?

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:46PM

Sham Squire wrote: »

Men crying about the unfairness in the world are like white people claiming that they're being "invaded" by people of colour. If either of these are your actually held opinion; not only are you just plain wrong, but you're an oxygen thief and the world would be a better place without you. That is all.

Did you get raped by the 'patriarchy' today or something?

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:47PM

Kev W wrote: »

Tell us why you think feminists are silent on the matter?

Not pc to go after non-white men.

wakka12 · 19-08-2015 04:50PM

Haha no
Reminds me of people complaining about gay people having more rights than them when we were just looking to gain the rights they've always had, coming up to the marriage referendum.

kinsy · 19-08-2015 04:52PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

So what's your opinion?

Fairly off topic here Old Jakey. My opinion on Rotherham has nothing to do with feminism or you. The problems with Rotherham mainly arose from the fact that everyone wanted to pass the book. People in authority buried their heads in the sand and, to this day, try to talk down the reality of what happened.

Vulnerable, impressionable girls were groomed over a long period of time. In most cases they believed their predators to have genuine feelings for them. This generally stopped when they were being passed around a group of men or having violence to their families threatened on them.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at by pressing me on Rotherham. It has nothing to do with anything else I've said but I will assume you are sitting waiting to hit me with something else on this topic because you feel you have some point to make so are refusing to address anything else I've said.

I won't be going off topic down your rabbit hole again.

Did I scare you by telling you that you know real live feminists?

orubiru · 19-08-2015 04:52PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well when one group has had so many privileges for so long, it's impossible to create true equality without removing some of those privileges. Obviously some of that group will feel entitled to those privileges after enjoying them for so long and feel hard done by and victimized but that isn't the case. The world wide pay gap shows that things are far from equal for women.

Please define the "one group" in this example.

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:54PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Not pc to go after non-white men.

I'm sorry, I only just realised my question was ambiguous. That's my fault.

I didn't mean "what do you think is their reason for remaining silent? "

I meant "why do you claim they have remained silent?"

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:54PM

kinsy wrote: »

Fairly off topic here Old Jakey. My opinion on Rotherham has nothing to do with feminism or you. The problems with Rotherham mainly arose from the fact that everyone wanted to pass the book. People in authority buried their heads in the sand and, to this day, try to talk down the reality of what happened.

Vulnerable, impressionable girls were groomed over a long period of time. In most cases they believed their predators to have genuine feelings for them. This generally stopped when they were being passed around a group of men or having violence to their families threatened on them.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at by pressing me on Rotherham. It has nothing to do with anything else I've said but I will assume you are sitting waiting to hit me with something else on this topic because you feel you have some point to make so are refusing to address anything else I've said.

I won't be going off topic down your rabbit hole again.

Did I scare you by telling you that you know real live feminists?

No.

Rotherham and the other cities shows how spineless feminism is. 'A guy wore a shirt we don't we don't like. Get him! Thousand of girls raped...ehm lets not talk about that'.

Yer movement is a joke.

zeffabelli · 19-08-2015 04:58PM

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:58PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

No.

Rotherham and the other cities shows how spineless feminism is. 'A guy wore a shirt we don't we don't like. Get him! Thousand of girls raped...ehm lets not talk about that'.

Yer movement is a joke.

I don't see the connection between Rotherham and a shirt.

Is the Western World anti-man?

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