"Doing arts not a waste of your points"

Clandestine · 17-08-2015 05:24PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I always find it funny people bashing arts degrees and 'artsy' types in general and then sit down to their nightly Game Of Thrones marathons

I'm currently doing work experience at a graphic design business to expand my knowledge of adobe illustrator/photoshop etc.
I have no issues with arts, but I do have an issue with degree programs on offer - because people can learn just as much from the internet + books and self-directed learning than spending 4 years and a hell of a lot of money from a college.

Clandestine · 17-08-2015 05:26PM

MagicHumanDoll wrote: »

We learn practical skills like IT, Presentation, Negotiation, critical thinking etc. But we also learn about the history of Art, Architecture itself as well as political movements that influenced these, throw in environmental studies that we do and viola, grey area.

Practical degrees like IT, Science etc are excellent. Very much needed, jobs aplenty it seems and in general they seem to be decent degrees. But what's wrong with studying something a bit more arty? Why not a collection of both?

You don't need to study architecture to learn about any of those things though, which is one of my main complaints with lecturers in universities. They claim you will learn "writing/communication/critical thinking" etc. skills if you do an arts degree, but a student can learn these things in their own time (like I am).

spiralism · 17-08-2015 05:29PM

There's such a wide variety of subject choices in Arts that it's incredibly narrowminded just to make a sweeping statements about Arts degrees in general.

I did History and Legal Studies. Slight regrets as i've since lost all interest in the law side of things and i've not been able to much with it since. Whatever, it's still a degree. I'll probably teach off it as im planning on teaching english aboad.

One of my friends did IT and Psychology out of her degree. She got a job in IT immediately and has been in it ever since.

Another is doing History and English and will teach from it

Another is working for the government

......and so on.

That's already quite a few different fields and off a tiny sample size, in that it's a few people i know.

Irritatingly one of the downsides of the boom and bust is the amount of saturation in the irish job market of people with third level education, it's very high even compared to other western countries. Living in Holland i knew plenty who hadn't been to college and were doing fine, in this country nearly every person i know has gone on to third level. This means that people are snobby, not about having a degree, but the right degree and having a 3rd level education is a requirement for any aul thing. Many fields coming out of college you're either stuck demeaning yourself getting exploited on a jobbridge (often for little/no discernable benefit) or you're not getting in the door without experience. Supply and demand is a bitch

mr.anonymous · 17-08-2015 05:29PM

As a toilet roll dispenser in DCU library reads:

"Pull for Arts degree"

Ave Sodalis · 17-08-2015 05:30PM

Clandestine wrote: »

I don't have much interest in programming but that's what I'm doing my degree in because it'll guarantee me security.

It really won't.

nicki11 · 17-08-2015 05:31PM

fatknacker wrote: »

Does anyone who has an Arts degree actually regret having it, or regret their course choice?

I do (I posted earlier) it to me was a waste of time as it got me no closer to a job and gave me very little by way of skills, its hardly a good sign if your essays require you to have 5 or 6 sources to back you up, before your opinions considered relevant enough to warrant more them a speed read. If anything it shook my confidence in myself as my lecturer would give me a C or B if I didn't have enough dreary people backing me up (in English) and especially for something factual like history or geography. I don't think anyone needs a source to back them up when they say "Nazism was a discriminatory, oppressive facist regime) or that earthquakes are destructive.

Yes I made alot of friends and got communication skills, etc. but how is social skills, deadline and writing skills and the ability "to observe patterns and people, to see problems differently and to communicate effectively" (from article) unique to arts. Pretty much everyone I know got those skills from comerce, to engineering, to science. If you know what you want to do and Arts will help you do it by all means but so many people go to college for the "experience" or to say they went and Arts is full of people (I know who said this) and for gods sake theres cheaper and more valuable ways to expand your horizons and mature.

Travel, build houses in India, teach English abroad, these also expand your mind and benefit others too and are much cheaper and worthwhile then 3-4 years reading and writing about stuff people will yawn at, at dinner partys. It is a worthwhile path for people to take into a post-grad or certain (limited) job markets but is not for everyone and shouldn't be marketed as such as it can put you into debt for something you later abandoned/never used.

FunLover18 · 17-08-2015 05:34PM

Clandestine wrote:

I don't have much interest in programming but that's what I'm doing my degree in because it'll guarantee me security. I can study what I like in my own time. We all have to make sacrifices. Hell, something like 24% of kids aged 18-25 are NEET's.

I think you're just proving my point that it's completely subjective. You'd rather do something you have no interest in but that will guarantee professional security, I'd rather do something that interests me but may not offer the same security. There's no right or wrong, just each to their own.

Ave Sodalis · 17-08-2015 05:34PM

nicki11 wrote: »

I do (I posted earlier) it to me was a waste of time as it got me no closer to a job and gave me very little by way of skills, its hardly a good sign if your essays require you to have 5 or 6 sources to back you up, before your opinions considered relevant enough to warrant more them a speed read.

Science is exactly the same. Everything has to referenced.

scamalert · 17-08-2015 05:34PM

Arts degree alone is useless-combine that with IT industry 3d design graphics,architecture-then you have a chance at high paying job and field where it comes in handy,but given current situation market is full as is-more people learn that stuff while doing doodles and proper course on top.

Clandestine · 17-08-2015 05:38PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think you're just proving my point that it's completely subjective. You'd rather do something you have no interest in but that will guarantee professional security, I'd rather do something that interests me but may not offer the same security. There's no right or wrong, just each to their own.

I didn't say I have no interest, only "not much".

The thing is, financial security will lead to more options down the line. I'd rather have a not so good job and make a fair amount of money vs a job I like with little money or no job at all. Having money and experience allows room to change careers also.

Also, right and wrong does matter in this case. Look at which jobs have the most unemployment vs those with the most employment.

17-08-2015 05:41PM

nicki11 wrote: »

I do (I posted earlier) it to me was a waste of time as it got me no closer to a job and gave me very little by way of skills, its hardly a good sign if your essays require you to have 5 or 6 sources to back you up, before your opinions considered relevant enough to warrant more them a speed read. If anything it shook my confidence in myself as my lecturer would give me a C or B if I didn't have enough dreary people backing me up (in English) and especially for something factual like history or geography. I don't think anyone needs a source to back them up when they say "Nazism was a discriminatory, oppressive facist regime) or that earthquakes are destructive. Yes I made alot of friends and got communication skills, etc. but how is social skills, deadline and writing skills and the ability "to observe patterns and people, to see problems differently and to communicate effectively" (from article) unique to arts. Pretty much everyone I know got those skills from comerce, to engineering, to science. If you know what you want to do and Arts will help you do it by all means but so many people go to college for the "experience" or to say they went and Arts is full of people (I know who said this) and for gods sake theres cheaper and more valuable ways to expand your horizons and mature. Travel, build houses in India, teach English abroad, these also expand your mind and benefit others too and are much cheaper and worthwhile then 3-4 years reading and writing about stuff people will yawn at, at dinner partys. It is a worthwhile path for people to take into a post-grad or certain (limited) job markets but is not for everyone and shouldn't be marketed as such as it can put you into debt for something you later abandoned/never used.

You are asked to quote and reflect on five or six sources precisely because the skill you are learning is how to filter information, assess multiple viewpoints, take account of potential bias and reach your own conclusions.

This is a skill that is badly needed in many, many jobs and sadly lacking in many, many people - and although you CAN learn it within science and engineering degrees, the more 'objective truth' there is within a subject the less those skills tend to matter.

Your Nazism example is perfect. Was it discriminatory? Was it oppressive? Says who? Why? I am not for moment suggesting it wasn't any of those things, but what history in particular would hopefully teach people is that you don't just take someone's word for something or parrot revealed truth - you find out. Hugely valuable skill.

Neither history or geography are 'factual' in the way you seem to believe, and the 'dreary people' are others you might learn from.

nicki11 · 17-08-2015 05:42PM

fatknacker wrote: »

Does anyone who has an Arts degree actually regret having it, or regret their course choice?

sup_dude wrote: »

Science is exactly the same. Everything has to referenced.

Yes but while your referencing a fact about mitosis most of my work is taken up by a wall of quotes from someone in the 19th/18th/16th century about which ruler preceded the other and instead of just saying who and why, I'm expected to read an entire book for a new chapter or two of data I don't already have. Unlike in History or Philosophy you don't have to argue why a chair is a chair. Which I doubt will get me a job

FunLover18 · 17-08-2015 05:43PM

Clandestine wrote:

Also, right and wrong does matter in this case. Look at which jobs have the most unemployment vs those with the most employment.

When it comes to choosing a college course there is no right or wrong way of doing it, it depends on the individual. You can choose for job security, you can choose based on your interests, etc. The only person it matters to is to the person making the choice.

Clandestine · 17-08-2015 05:45PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

When it comes to choosing a college course there is no right or wrong way of doing it, it depends on the individual. You can choose for job security, you can choose based on your interests, etc. The only person it matters to is to the person making the choice.

Yes, but not all degrees are made equal.

17-08-2015 05:46PM

nicki11 wrote: »

Yes but while your referencing a fact about mitosis most of my work is taken up by a wall of quotes from someone in the 19th/18th/16th century about which ruler preceded the other and instead of just saying who and why, I'm expected to read an entire book for a new chapter or two of data I don't already have. Unlike in History or Philosophy you don't have to argue why a chair is a chair. Which I doubt will get me a job

What exactly were you studying?

Generic Dreadhead · 17-08-2015 05:55PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I only made the PAYE comment as otherwise you'd have all these people coming out with "Cash" type jobs or "Self Starter" (See NOT-an-Entrepreneur) non-jobs.

I was using PAYE as a means of saying "This person earns a wage and is hireable to work in X Field"

Regardless, I find the above to be wishy washy nonsense

RandomName2 wrote: »

For basic office PAYE, any arts degree will suffice. Wouldn't economics have one or two specific jobs open to it as well? What about a BA in Psychology? But I mean, for the most-part you'd have to specialise (post-degree) just like with Science.

What I'm getting at is your "Major" or "Specialist" or whatever does need to be in something a bit "Mainstream" like English etc, and more often than not you do still need to do further study to have a shot at a job right off the bat

A lot of the stuff people take as a Minor (say Folklore) is unfortunately of no value salary wise.

fatknacker wrote: »

Does anyone who has an Arts degree actually regret having it, or regret their course choice?

Probably not the former, but maybe the latter.

nicki11 · 17-08-2015 05:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You are asked to quote and reflect on five or six sources precisely because the skill you are learning is how to filter information, assess multiple viewpoints, take account of potential bias and reach your own conclusions.

This is a skill that is badly needed in many, many jobs and sadly lacking in many, many people - and although you CAN learn it within science and engineering degrees, the more 'objective truth' there is within a subject the less those skills tend to matter.

Your Nazism example is perfect. Was it discriminatory? Was it oppressive? Says who? Why? I am not for moment suggesting it wasn't any of those things, but what history in particular would hopefully teach people is that you don't just take someone's word for something or parrot revealed truth - you find out. Hugely valuable skill.

Neither history or geography are 'factual' in the way you seem to believe, and the 'dreary people' are others you might learn from.

Its not that factual but at a desk job I'm hardly going to have to argue that Hitler was a negative force in many peoples lives but an essay may also require me to explain the impact of religion in history which is difficult to not be biased about and would require sources. While geography has less subjective facts (outside of the socioeconomic part of geography) like if I build a windmill it has advantages and disadvantages that are measured and rooted in common sense; pro I like electricity, con does it pose an danger.

Research is useful and essential to most degrees I just don't see why this makes Arts so special and anymore enlightening then other degrees.

I was studying English, Sociological and political studies, History and Geography in first year and then just History and Geography for the remainder. I got into arts as I was told I'd make a good teacher but I recently discovered I don't have the patience and I'm currently trying to decide whether there may be an area I'd be better suited to, so I'm continuing until I figure it out.

Cold War Kid · 17-08-2015 06:00PM

I did arts because I wanted to study those subjects. Did a more practical postgrad and certs subsequently - I don't get why it's pretended it can only be one or the other.

Education is *not* just a means to a job - this is an opinion, not a fact.
Education in and of itself is enriching at individual, community and societal level.

Generic Dreadhead · 17-08-2015 06:05PM

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I did arts because I wanted to study those subjects. Did a more practical postgrad and certs subsequently - I don't get why it's pretended it can only be one or the other.

+1 to this, I'm not "Anti Arts", I'm nearly being Devils Advocate and realistic

Education is *not* just a means to a job - this is an opinion, not a fact.
Education in and of itself is enriching at individual, community and societal level.

Yes..... but ultimately thats an idealised way of looking at it.

FunLover18 · 17-08-2015 06:10PM

Clandestine wrote:

Yes, but not all degrees are made equal.

What's your point?

17-08-2015 06:11PM

nicki11 wrote: »

Its not that factual but at a desk job I'm hardly going to have to argue that Hitler was a negative force in many peoples lives but an essay may also require me to explain the impact of religion in history which is difficult to not be biased about and would require sources. While geography has less subjective facts (outside of the socioeconomic part of geography) like if I build a windmill it has advantages and disadvantages that are measured and rooted in common sense; pro I like electricity, con does it pose an danger.

Research is useful and essential to most degrees I just don't see why this makes Arts so special and anymore enlightening then other degrees.

I was studying English, Sociological and political studies, History and Geography in first year and then just History and Geography for the remainder. I got into arts as I was told I'd make a good teacher but I discovered I don't have the patience and I'm currently trying to decide whether there may be an area I'd be better suited to, so I'm continuing until I figure it out.

It very much depends on what you mean by research.

Some (not all) arts degrees will or at least should teach you a lot about decision-making and handling data of all types.

Most STEM subjects of course teach a literal handling of numerical data and also encourage experimentation but they are unlikely to delve too much into critical thinking around motives, bias, agenda etc. They might do, but it's not a core part of the pattern of thinking you are learning.

These skills are very important and although you might think you have them or can learn them independently, in my experience the majority of people do not have them and they are a pattern of thinking best picked up by being drummed into you via a degree course.

Hopefully the practical value of these skills doesn't need to be repeated but consider product management in tech. You are constantly balancing tech and non-tech inputs and making decisions. Everything anyone tells you has to be passed through a filter and judged against the opinions and requirements of others. Every 'fact' has to be carefully questioned. There aren't any right or wrong answers but one way or another you have to process everything around you and make decisions about where best to put resources - and then explain your decisions to the CEO above you and the engineering team below.

If you aren't doing those things you will not last long in your job, no matter how good you are at engineering.

17-08-2015 06:13PM

nicki11 wrote: »

Its not that factual but at a desk job I'm hardly going to have to argue that Hitler was a negative force in many peoples lives

btw and a small point but if you want to get on in the world, sooner or later you are going to have to stand up in front of a bunch of people and tell them that something they believe to be true is not true. And then explain why.

I exaggerate, but there's no quicker way to move up in the private sector world (as long as you are right!)

Clandestine · 17-08-2015 06:26PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

What's your point?

Would you say a degree in computer science is less worthwhile than a degree in say, women's studies? Honestly?

nicki11 · 17-08-2015 06:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It very much depends on what you mean by research.

Some (not all) arts degrees will or at least should teach you a lot about decision-making and handling data of all types.

Most STEM subjects of course teach a literal handling of numerical data and also encourage experimentation but they are unlikely to delve too much into critical thinking around motives, bias, agenda etc. They might do, but it's not a core part of the pattern of thinking you are learning.

These skills are very important and although you might think you have them or can learn them independently, in my experience the majority of people do not have them and they are a pattern of thinking best picked up by being drummed into you via a degree course.

Hopefully the practical value of these skills doesn't need to be repeated but consider product management in tech. You are constantly balancing tech and non-tech inputs and making decisions. Everything anyone tells you has to be passed through a filter and judged against the opinions and requirements of others. Every 'fact' has to be carefully questioned. There aren't any right or wrong answers but one way or another you have to process everything around you and make decisions about where best to put resources - and then explain your decisions to the CEO above you and the engineering team below.

If you aren't doing those things you will not last long in your job, no matter how good you are at engineering.

Deleted User wrote: »

btw and a small point but if you want to get on in the world, sooner or later you are going to have to stand up in front of a bunch of people and tell them that something they believe to be true is not true. And then explain why.

I exaggerate, but there's no quicker way to move up in the private sector world (as long as you are right!)

I'm not saying these skills aren't valuable, its just that they can be acquired in other courses and through experience but relevant experience is as much of a qualification when it comes to getting a job as your degree not just the degree itself. Many people who have a degree and experience find it easier to get a job but Arts (among others) doesn't have alot of opportunity for this compared to IT or Nursing and just seems to focus on essays and research rather then practical applications beyond education, research or government work. Its billed as a jack of all trades but I feel like it could do with some improvement in certain areas like insuring people know were they want to go after (work, post-grad) as I see many people pick something based on what they like that has very few real world applications. Heck the Philosophy lecturer in the first week said "Theres exactly one job you can get with this and its mine".

While if you did Philosophy and IT/Psychology/Children's Studies you could probably get a job but good luck if you did classics or something. Most of my Arts friends that shave either done a post-grad and/or gone into a different area, are unemployed or working in a shop but a number of my friends who went abroad are happy and employed in various areas. I just don't think having just something analytical like philosophy but not something mainstream like IT or English, is good for someones job prospects or the economy, in my own experience. Lastly I found people who participated in clubs and sports to be more self confident then those who did a particular degree, so I'd say doing clubs would really help bring someone out of their shell and make them more capable of dealing with confrontation in the work place, then someone who just sat in the library and studied or went out drinking like many students do (its a much healthier outlet).

KatW4 · 17-08-2015 06:39PM

I did an arts degree (Music and English) because I didn't get enough points for teaching. I went on to do a PGCE in teaching after. I'm so glad that I did an arts degree first to be honest. I enjoyed it and it gave me the option to change my mind about what I wanted to do. Even if I didn't change it in the end.

My sister didn't know what she wanted to do when she did her Leaving Cert so she did an arts degree (Music and French). She literally has the best job ever now... she works in Disneyland Paris! She still doesn't know what she wants to do even after finishing her degree but she can do anything she wants.

I think that's the great think about an arts degree. If you're not sure, it's a good thing to have under your belt so you can go on and do something afterwards without tying yourself down to a degree/job that you chose under the pressure of the Leaving Cert/CAO.

KatW4 · 17-08-2015 06:43PM

Robsweezie wrote:

do whatever the **** you want and **** what people have to say about it. if you're digging ditches then strive be the best ditch digger you can be.

I agree

FunLover18 · 17-08-2015 06:46PM

Clandestine wrote:

Would you say a degree in computer science is less worthwhile than a degree in say, women's studies? Honestly?

But 'worthwhile' is a completely subjective term. For me I would be more interested in women's studies than computer therefore I would deem it more worth my time. You feel computer science offers more job security which is fair enough, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise but you and I (and most people) clearly have different priorities which is a good thing.

MagicHumanDoll · 17-08-2015 06:57PM

Clandestine wrote: »

You don't need to study architecture to learn about any of those things though, which is one of my main complaints with lecturers in universities. They claim you will learn "writing/communication/critical thinking" etc. skills if you do an arts degree, but a student can learn these things in their own time (like I am).

That's a ridiculous thing to say, I didn't once claim you 'needed to study architecture to learn about those things'.

You can learn almost anything in your own time!! The point I made was that there are courses that teach both areas (science and art) and that this competition between the two and argument you can only do one or the other is not true. Both are valuable/valid degrees.

MagicHumanDoll · 17-08-2015 06:59PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

But 'worthwhile' is a completely subjective term. For me I would be more interested in women's studies than computer therefore I would deem it more worth my time. You feel computer science offers more job security which is fair enough, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise but you and I (and most people) clearly have different priorities which is a good thing.

This person is just under the illusion that everyone has to want what this person does from life, and that value is subjective as you say.

Many people enjoy the idea of job security and healthy finances (Doesn't everyone?) but that doesn't mean that some wouldn't give that up for a different lifestyle etc..

PTH2009 · 17-08-2015 07:06PM

Done terrible (didn't fail anything but done foundation and ordinary subjects) in my leaving got about 175 points and done a few fetac courses (waste of time Imo) and got to third level college in 2011 done a higher cert course passed it in 2013 and going to do a degree in a few years. Some students are so thick that's it's amazing how they got to college. Some just go for the piss up and pussy.

"Doing arts not a waste of your points"

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