Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

1…121122124126127…334

Comments

  • #3692
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    I must say I enjoy reading Kowtow's posts it really gives you food for thought. On the point of national brands we have Kerrygold butter. With the Euro weak and all the research about margarine bad for you, can we capitolise and market/sell Kerrygold butter more in the American market? Even if we just targeted New York for example, could we use our green grassfed image to gain access. Then we could insulate ourselves better from world price or would we want to? The british market is a domestic market yet on debates the supermarkets continue to use world price as a point. If we could sell more into a lucrative market would the price be passed back to the producer? I suppose that's where producer representitives comes into play. Do they have the power to veto decisions in co-ops? On the New Zealand borrowing, Fronterra is now giving loans to producers to try and keep them in business.


  • #3693
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Kerrygold is already enjoying a huge fridge space in supermarkets from Miami to Seatle, so thats not the answer

    Oh and guess where most of the butter from that comes from?

    Yes GII..
    Remind me what they're paying again?


  • #3694
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    whelan2 wrote: »
    There's an article in todays business part of the sunday indo, apparently the average borrowings of irish dairy farmers is 62,000 euro while the average new zealand farmer has borrowings of 4million euro:eek:

    Yes but as I said earlier that does not include any home mortgage which most farmers under 50 have,so you can add another 100k plus average to that on an average land holding of probably a tenth that of new zealand..

    And for anyone saying to forget non farm loans,thats up there with dont include any pay for the farmer in doing the figures


  • #3695
    blackdog1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭blackdog1


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Kerrygold is already enjoying a huge fridge space in supermarkets from Miami to Seatle, so thats not the answer

    Oh and guess where most of the butter from that comes from?

    Yes GII..
    Remind me what they're paying again?

    Don't they own milk plants in the us? If so that kerry gold butter could be manufactured in the us with US milk


  • #3696
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    And another one at 28p stg or Euro 36c

    *cough*

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/ulster-farmers-welcome-move-by-asda-to-pay-more-for-milk-1.2317623


  • Advertisement
  • #3697
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Kerrygold is already enjoying a huge fridge space in supermarkets from Miami to Seatle, so thats not the answer

    Oh and guess where most of the butter from that comes from?

    Yes GII..
    Remind me what they're paying again?

    A competitive milk price


  • #3698
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Yes but as I said earlier that does not include any home mortgage which most farmers under 50 have,so you can add another 100k plus average to that on an average land holding of probably a tenth that of new zealand..

    And for anyone saying to forget non farm loans,thats up there with dont include any pay for the farmer in doing the figures
    I did a bit of asking around about not having figures for wages included in farm costs.

    Apparently the trade off was if they include a farm wage in the Costs Of Production, then they would also have to include the SFP in it also.

    You can't have it both ways, tbf.


  • #3699
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I did a bit of asking around about not having figures for wages included in farm costs.

    Apparently the trade off was if they include a farm wage in the Costs Of Production, then they would also have to include the SFP in it also.

    You can't have it both ways, tbf.
    shows how ridiculous it all is tbf
    If you've built a house on a loan of a 100k,that too has to be paid every month and the average sfp is probably whats doing it or a partner working effectively subsidising the farm
    Lord Sugar certainly wouldn't be impressed
    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    A competitive milk price
    I see you do satire too :D


  • #3700
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    Don't they own milk plants in the us? If so that kerry gold butter could be manufactured in the us with US milk

    No its adverised as being from grass fed Irish cows,and anyway the fact its mostly GII product has been said at most of the glanbia information meetings Ive been at


  • #3701
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I did a bit of asking around about not having figures for wages included in farm costs.

    Apparently the trade off was if they include a farm wage in the Costs Of Production, then they would also have to include the SFP in it also.

    You can't have it both ways, tbf.

    I don't buy it. It's not rocket science to include average industrial wage on farm costs.


  • Advertisement
  • #3702
    Good loser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,273 ✭✭✭Good loser


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    I don't buy it. It's not rocket science to include average industrial wage on farm costs.

    The figure sought is the return to capital and labour of the owner/operator I believe.

    If own labour is included might as well factor in land costs.

    Adding labour only complicates stuff and adds no value to the information.


  • #3703
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    I don't buy it. It's not rocket science to include average industrial wage on farm costs.
    Well, you can.

    But then they wanted to include the SFP as well as that's farm income also.

    And then the figures get badly skewed as the SFP varies hugely between farms and then the issue of how to divide the SFP between diferent farm enterprises which will muddy the waters even more.

    And there are probably more reasons than we can think of that would mess up the figures even more. Like, what target figure do you use?

    Average industrial wage is fine but does that mean there should be no return on capital ie the farm itself? Should it be average industrial wage +20%? +25%? What should be done with part-time farmers, should their part-time wages be included or not? Should a bigger return on capital be included as they wouldn't be totally dependent on the farm for income? Should a wage for a working wife/husband off farm be included? Should a bigger wage be included for a spouse working part time/not working at all?


  • #3704
    Greengrass1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭Greengrass1


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    The major loans there are for land and stock ,we've not the same chance to squire large land blocks here and more is spent on yards ,parlours,cubicles slurry storage and other things dept and environmental regulations require us to

    Heard a good one the other day.
    If capital gains was removed would it make land more mobile.
    Doubt it would happen though


  • #3705
    WheatenBriar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭WheatenBriar


    In fairness, there couldn't be too many part time dairy farmers so thats no excuse
    I get the SFP issue alright but again It is transparent how much of that was related to milk output on the farm,so only include that


  • #3706
    Brown Podzol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,847 ✭✭✭Brown Podzol


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    Well, you can.

    But then they wanted to include the SFP as well as that's farm income also.

    And then the figures get badly skewed as the SFP varies hugely between farms and then the issue of how to divide the SFP between diferent farm enterprises which will muddy the waters even more.

    And there are probably more reasons than we can think of that would mess up the figures even more. Like, what target figure do you use?

    Average industrial wage is fine but does that mean there should be no return on capital ie the farm itself? Should it be average industrial wage +20%? +25%? What should be done with part-time farmers, should their part-time wages be included or not? Should a bigger return on capital be included as they wouldn't be totally dependent on the farm for income? Should a wage for a working wife/husband off farm be included? Should a bigger wage be included for a spouse working part time/not working at all?

    In your SFP literature you will find a figure for the amount of labour units it takes to run your business, this is a pan EU figure not a Teagasc figure. Multiply this figure by the average industrial wage and include in the profit monitor. Profit after this figure is return on capital. The SFP is always said to compensate for EU imposed compliance regulations.


  • #3707
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    In fairness, there couldn't be too many part time dairy farmers so thats no excuse
    I get the SFP issue alright but again It is transparent how much of that was related to milk output on the farm,so only include that
    Even if the non dairying part is gone?

    What happens it then?

    Is it non farm income?

    Look, I'm just pointing out the difficulty in including the figure and what it should be.

    I think a figure should be included but it's not as simple as saying 'Sure, throw in X euros, twill be grand'


  • #3708
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Teagasc always work off averages, average farm size, average cows milked, average cost of production. Whatever cost of production for that year, add in average industrial wage for that year, ask the trade unions they'll tell you what it is and divide by number of litres on average farm and add on. You can make it as complicated as you like and you'll get nowhere. You'll also have to work out how many labour units on average farm.


  • #3709
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    Teagasc always work off averages, average farm size, average cows milked, average cost of production. Whatever cost of production for that year, add in average industrial wage for that year, ask the trade unions they'll tell you what it is and divide by number of litres on average farm and add on. You can make it as complicated as you like and you'll get nowhere. You'll also have to work out how many labour units on average farm.

    After doing that then you can publish the average cost of production, cents per litre.


  • #3710
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    farmerjj wrote: »
    Always wondered why Teagasc and co keep comparing us to new Zealand, I sure wouldn't like to follow them down there road of high borrowing ,maybe its time we try and do something right ourselves and not follow some other countries flawed example

    They aren't comparing us to NZ. They are trying to get us to use our resources better just as they do.

    We have our own system that's unique in Northern Europe with only ourselves, parts of Wales and SW England. I think we took the best knowledge they have and developed a better system.

    Having worked in NZ when they hadn't a pot to piss in on farm, do not underestimate their resilience on the ground nor their ability to embrace failure and re bound. Only a small number are in any way under threat.

    This is a cycle and we need to get fit for it. We need to get used to swings from 20c to 36c. This is the new reality.


  • #3711
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Yes but as I said earlier that does not include any home mortgage which most farmers under 50 have,so you can add another 100k plus average to that on an average land holding of probably a tenth that of new zealand..

    And for anyone saying to forget non farm loans,thats up there with dont include any pay for the farmer in doing the figures

    I have a mortgage on my house but the reality is it has nothing to do with my farm. It's paid from my salary which I control. If it became too much of a burden I could sell house and rent


  • Advertisement
  • #3712
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    Don't they own milk plants in the us? If so that kerry gold butter could be manufactured in the us with US milk

    GIIL have no milk plants in America

    The Kerrygold is made on contract and DG and others also manufacture butter


  • #3713
    blackdog1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭blackdog1


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    GIIL have no milk plants in America

    The Kerrygold is made on contract and DG and others also manufacture butter

    http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/irish-dairy-board-us-1536677-Jun2014/

    I think a couple of irish owned plants out there


  • #3714
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/irish-dairy-board-us-1536677-Jun2014/

    I think a couple of irish owned plants out there

    Yes Glanbia Plc have plants but not making butter for Kerrygold. Part of the success of Kerrygold is its colour and of course taste. If you notice in most places you visit the butter is white whereas Kerrygold is creamy yellow. That's from grass and very difficult to do from indoor milk


  • #3715
    kowtow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Europe calculates a comprehensive guide to cost of production for every country in the EU and many outside.

    They analyse both cash cost and total economic cost.. which according to teagasc is the relevant figure for medium to long term planning.

    On total economic cost which allows for labour and land Ireland is the second highest cost milk producer in the EU after Denmark. Interestingly on a milk solids basis the UK is the lowest cost producer.

    The 2011 teagasc report linked a page or two back gives chapter + verse.

    I notice now that some teagasc documents refer to Irelands competitive advantage being on a 'cash cost basis'


  • #3716
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    They aren't comparing us to NZ. They are trying to get us to use our resources better just as they do.

    We have our own system that's unique in Northern Europe with only ourselves, parts of Wales and SW England. I think we took the best knowledge they have and developed a better system.

    Having worked in NZ when they hadn't a pot to piss in on farm, do not underestimate their resilience on the ground nor their ability to embrace failure and re bound. Only a small number are in any way under threat.

    This is a cycle and we need to get fit for it. We need to get used to swings from 20c to 36c. This is the new reality.

    I think producers here in Ireland just don't know what to expect. It feels like we've been left out in the cold with the gov and teagasc telling everyone about the bonanza that was going to happen with milk quotas going. We don't know if this is the bottom and prices will start rising again or if we're about to fall off a cliff and for how long nobody knows, past performance doesn't garrentee future performance.


  • #3717
    blackdog1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭blackdog1


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    I think producers here in Ireland just don't know what to expect. It feels like we've been left out in the cold with the gov and teagasc telling everyone about the bonanza that was going to happen with milk quotas going. We don't know if this is the bottom and prices will start rising again or if we're about to fall off a cliff and for how long nobody knows, past performance doesn't garrentee future performance.

    Teagasc get a research levy on every litre produced on farms. They will effectively double their income if we double milk production. That's in a good year or bad they levy stays the same. Of course their pushing everyone into milk and producing more. To me it's wrong. We have a small population and we need diversity in farming we don't want to be like nz with 7m plus cows and export driven.


  • #3718
    kowtow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    pedigree 6 wrote:
    I think producers here in Ireland just don't know what to expect. It feels like we've been left out in the cold with the gov and teagasc telling everyone about the bonanza that was going to happen with milk quotas going. We don't know if this is the bottom and prices will start rising again or if we're about to fall off a cliff and for how long nobody knows, past performance doesn't garrentee future performance.


    I have a feeling we will look back at this period and be grateful the price came off as quick as it did.

    There's still time to make sure we get the coops we need and to influence the value chain. If we thought we had learned all there was to learn on April 1st and all we had to do was sign up and sit back then we never deserved to succeed anyway.

    We produce wonderful milk on family farms in a landscape which is world renowned. Every success story has to start somewhere and that's not a bad place to begin.

    If we work as hard on our supply chain as we do on our grazing then anything is possible.


  • #3719
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    Teagasc get a research levy on every litre produced on farms. They will effectively double their income if we double milk production. That's in a good year or bad they levy stays the same. Of course their pushing everyone into milk and producing more. To me it's wrong. We have a small population and we need diversity in farming we don't want to be like nz with 7m plus cows and export driven.

    5m people live on this island, we'll always be export driven


  • #3720
    kevthegaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,084 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    Teagasc get a research levy on every litre produced on farms. They will effectively double their income if we double milk production. That's in a good year or bad they levy stays the same. Of course their pushing everyone into milk and producing more. To me it's wrong. We have a small population and we need diversity in farming we don't want to be like nz with 7m plus cows and export driven.
    i agree on the levy, less farmers to preach to each year too


  • Advertisement
  • #3721
    kowtow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Quite! If we relied on domestic liquid the fields would be empty.. We've been major exporters longer than we've been an independent nation.. at one point we were the global price setter for butter.

    Switzerland has a similar population size to Ireland and exports, if my rough calculation is correct .. I will check tomorrow. . nearly ? billion litres as cheese with a manufacturing milk price of over 60 cent.

    Everything is possible.

    Edit: replaced figure as definitely wrong. Will try to find correct figure but can't on phone.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement