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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1532
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    What in gods name are you on about? No they shouldn't to answer your question...struggling to see your point here yet again.

    Where are you getting your figures btw? Off the ever reliable Wikipedia?
    Here's where you supply your own superior figures that will trump Wikipedia's referenced data...
    Or, of course, you could just say "waah, I don't like that number!".


  • #1533
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    Would you be willing to let the teaching of the Irish language to be optional in every school across the land?

    In every secondary school across the land, yes. The way its been taught through the years has absolutely ruined the language for so many people, so much so that people hold a grudge against it. People should have the choice whether they want to learn the language or not, so leave it in their hands to determine the success of the language. If people want the speak it, then they will.


  • #1534
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    In every secondary school across the land, yes. The way its been taught through the years has absolutely ruined the language for so many people, so much so that people hold a grudge against it. People should have the choice whether they want to learn the language or not, so leave it in their hands to determine the success of the language. If people want the speak it, then they will.

    Cool. Yere not such a bad fellah. (for a galegoer of course).:D

    Why not for Primary school too?


  • #1535
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Here's where you supply your own superior figures that will trump Wikipedia's referenced data...
    Or, of course, you could just say "waah, I don't like that number!".

    When did I state that I didn't like the number? I just find it laughable that you're going to wiki to seek figures and stats and coming back here and arguing about other issues and going off topic. Your even getting a bit confused of the use of the word 'many' for crying out loud.


    You are the one that is bringing up issues that I simply never raised. You're constructing arguments that have no relevance to what I'm saying AT ALL, so much so that its become laughable. You keep bringing up Polish and Chinese...I take it you speak them at a high level? Or did Irish deter you from reaching your dream of one day being able to speak these languages? Of course they are useful languages. Is that what you want to hear? If so then great, maybe I can stop wasting my time with you then.

    And to answer your question no they shouldn't be compulsory...why should they be?


  • #1536
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Cool. Yere not such a bad fellah. (for a galegoer of course).:D

    Why not for Primary school too?

    haha don't speak too soon!

    Now I'm sure I'll get slated for this but personally I think that the Irish language does deserve a place in primary schools as part of a foundation to learn the language. Irish as well as other languages should be taught in primary schools. It has to be there to give someone the chance to say whether they like or dislike it. Gaeilge is part of our history, whether people like it or not, therefore it deserves to be highlighted. It should be taught to students as part of our history and it is up to them to carry on from that in whether or not they want to carry on speaking it intead of them being forced to do so like they are now at secondary level.


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  • #1537
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    haha don't speak too soon!

    Now I'm sure I'll get slated for this but personally I think that the Irish language does deserve a place in primary schools as part of a foundation to learn the language. Irish as well as other languages should be taught in primary schools. It has to be there to give someone the chance to say whether they like or dislike it. Gaeilge is part of our history, whether people like it or not, therefore it deserves to be highlighted. It should be taught to students as part of our history and it is up to them to carry on from that in whether or not they want to carry on speaking it intead of them being forced to do so like they are now at secondary level.

    Good. But wouldn't the time spent on Irish be better spent on basic Science or PE?

    Just like it was back in the day?

    No other languages are thought in Irish primary schools as far as I'm aware.

    Could we not have an option to teach French, or German to them instead of Irish?

    It might give the kids (mine included) a better start in life.

    Just saying.


  • #1538
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Good. But wouldn't the time spent on Irish be better spent on basic Science or PE?

    Just like it was back in the day?

    No other languages are thought in Irish primary schools as far as I'm aware.

    Could we not have an option to teach French, or German to them instead of Irish?

    It might give the kids (mine included) a better start in life.

    Just saying.

    As I said its a personal opinion of mine. An opinion that some will think is biased, but if we are to make a use of it why not start at primary level and see if can excel from there, or do you think that the Irish language should be stopped plain and simple and never to be heard of again? If so then that's your opinion and your entitled to that. If Irish can be taught in the same fun way that they do in the hugely successful Gaeltacht courses then it might stand a chance.

    Science and PE are always taught in schools. I don;t see how children would lose out as they are learning basic science to begin with. It is in secondary school where they progress. As for PE...well PE is everywhere. From GAA, to soccer to whatever other sport you can name be sure that plenty of exercise is installed in the curriculum.

    French was taught to me in my primary school anyway but I guess that depends on the school. I think language classes would prove beneficial in primary school and more emphasis should be put on this and I'm not only taking about Irish. Its all a matter of opinion at the end of the day.


  • #1539
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Cool. Yere not such a bad fellah. (for a galegoer of course).:D

    Why not for Primary school too?


    Why should we make policy based on the fact that some people who are no good at Irish want to prevent other people from learning it?


  • #1540
    TheLastMohican
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭TheLastMohican


    TÁ. Just like the Latin of old. Could not sustain itself.


  • #1541
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    As I said its a personal opinion of mine. An opinion that some will think is biased, but if we are to make a use of it why not start at primary level and see if can excel from there, or do you think that the Irish language should be stopped plain and simple and never to be heard of again? If so then that's your opinion and your entitled to that. If Irish can be taught in the same fun way that they do in the hugely successful Gaeltacht courses then it might stand a chance.

    Science and PE are always taught in schools. I don;t see how children would lose out as they are learning basic science to begin with. It is in secondary school where they progress. As for PE...well PE is everywhere. From GAA, to soccer to whatever other sport you can name be sure that plenty of exercise is installed in the curriculum.

    French was taught to me in my primary school anyway but I guess that depends on the school. I think language classes would prove beneficial in primary school and more emphasis should be put on this and I'm not only taking about Irish. Its all a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

    Okay & all very well.

    But for the massive & I mean truly massive investment into this...

    Is it worth it? Really is it?

    I can't see anything to be gained.

    Let's be honest. The language is gone too far to be revived as a serious going concern now.

    What I say is that anybody who wants to continue with this, let them pay for it. If it's such a wonderful thing it'll pay for itself. Just like the GAA.

    The thing is, is that everyone who supports the language knows deep down that the jig is well & truly up at this stage.

    But they have their hooks in so well that they can dress up the whole issue & use it as a political football. Wrap themselves in the flag of patriotism & all that.

    Nothing further from the truth IMO. They want the gravy train to continue, just like it has for the past 90 years & fook everyone else.


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  • #1542
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Okay & all very well.

    But for the massive & I mean truly massive investment into this...

    Is it worth it? Really is it?

    I can't see anything to be gained.

    Let's be honest. The language is gone too far to be revived as a serious going concern now.

    What I say is that anybody who wants to continue with this, let them pay for it. If it's such a wonderful thing it'll pay for itself. Just like the GAA.

    The thing is, is that everyone who supports the language knows deep down that the jig is well & truly up at this stage.

    But they have their hooks in so well that they can dress up the whole issue & use it as a political football. Wrap themselves in the flag of patriotism & all that.

    Nothing further from the truth IMO. They want the gravy train to continue, just like it has for the past 90 years & fook everyone else.

    Its not the amount invested that annoys me, it's the complete lack of any meaningful return from that investment. In fact, it's not the lack of return its the fact that, for some reason even beyond their own comprehedning, it's the fact that the pro-Irish brigade (and by that, I mean the ones that genuinely want to see the langauge florish, not the ones who are benefiting financially from it) see absolutely no problem in this scenario continuing.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1543
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    When did I state that I didn't like the number? I just find it laughable that you're going to wiki to seek figures and stats and coming back here and arguing about other issues and going off topic. Your even getting a bit confused of the use of the word 'many' for crying out loud.
    Where am I confused? You have never once stated what your "many" actually means. Why not just give us a number? Any chance it's because "under 1% use Irish even once a day" is pretty pathetic? Or do you only deal in vague wishy washy fews and manys?
    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    You are the one that is bringing up issues that I simply never raised. You're constructing arguments that have no relevance to what I'm saying AT ALL, so much so that its become laughable. You keep bringing up Polish and Chinese...I take it you speak them at a high level?
    Lack of self awareness alert captain!
    You're whining about strawmanning and then assuming I speak fluent Polish... which wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the point I made either way.
    Anecdotes are entertaining. Data is relevant. Repeat until understood.


  • #1544
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why should we make policy based on the fact that some people who are no good at Irish want to prevent other people from learning it?

    Are you equating making Irish optional with stopping people who want to learn Irish learn Irish? I skipped a good bit of this conversation but I'm pretty confident no one advocated banning learning Irish.


  • #1545
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    psinno wrote: »
    Are you equating making Irish optional with stopping people who want to learn Irish learn Irish? I skipped a good bit of this conversation but I'm pretty confident no one advocated banning learning Irish.
    It's a central tenet of the pro-Irish brigade playbook. If you want Irish to be optional you must "hate" Irish. Not hate that it's compulsory, oh no, you hate Irish itself you traitorous dog...


  • #1546
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It's a central tenet of the pro-Irish brigade playbook. If you want Irish to be optional you must "hate" Irish. Not hate that it's compulsory, oh no, you hate Irish itself you traitorous dog...

    In fact many people here don't think that Shakespeare or maths should be compulsory either and that's cool.

    Saying you don't want any compulsory subjects is grand but to single out Irish and not Shakespeare I think is unreasonable.


  • #1547
    recipio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭recipio


    Its remarkable, that despite a groundswell of opinion against compulsory Irish the policy remains entrenched in the ruling classes of this State.As usual, when political parties consider change the first question is 'what's in it for them'


  • #1548
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    mikeym wrote: »
    What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

    Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.
    He speaks it better than most of the Irish people, and has a reason to learn it.

    Thes rest of us learn it briefly whilst at school, but forget it shortly afterwards as it's of no use.


  • #1549
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    recipio wrote: »
    Its remarkable, that despite a groundswell of opinion against compulsory Irish the policy remains entrenched in the ruling classes of this State.As usual, when political parties consider change the first question is 'what's in it for them'

    Where? From the same posters on this website, often using several nicks in the one discussion to express their pathological hatred for the defining mark of any distinctive culture, its language?

    I really would welcome if one of the Irish haters - and, as shown, a bit of digging reveals that the person who starts with "I don't hate Irish but..." usually is on record as wishing for its death or engaging in pseudo-racist attacks against people who are culturally Irish - could stand for election specifically on an anti-Irish platform. Meanwhile, last week the ESRI issued a study which said this:

    "While the attitudes towards the Irish language among primary and post-primary students in the Republic of Ireland are often negative, the report finds considerable support for the language among adult population - 67 per cent of the respondents in the Republic of Ireland and 45 per cent from Northern Ireland felt positive about the Irish language."

    The "groundswell of opinion" is, if anything, against the Irish haters - every one of whom, in my experience, are to the far right of the political spectrum on every issue and especially on issues relating to the people who fought for Irish independence and the legitimacy of Irish independence itself (and who usually self-describe as "Libertarian" or some other nutcase neo-fascist ideology beloved of the immature and sociopathic).


  • #1550
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    My sister has 3 year old twins. She lived in Madrid before she got married and is a fluent Spanish speaker. Her husband lived in Rome for several years too. He's a fluent Italian speaker. They'll learn both of these languages at home and will have learned significant amounts of Italian and Spanish by time they are 6 or 7. They'll have done their leaving cert and still wont be fluent in irish.

    These languages will be infinitely more beneficial to them as they grow up and will open more doors for them than the Irish language ever will and they have the luxury of a significant head start.

    Companies in Ireland are screaming out for people who can speak foreign languages. Spanish, French and Chinese and some clear examples.

    Because of this I have no idea why the education system doesn't focus on what's necessary rather than keeping a failed and dead language on life support.


  • #1551
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    What are some good swear phrases? I think cac is sh1t but how would you say fcuk off or go fcuk yourself in Irish?


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  • #1552
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    psinno wrote: »
    Are you equating making Irish optional with stopping people who want to learn Irish learn Irish?

    I've no idea why you're asking that question or jumping to that particular conclusion, but the answer is in two parts.

    As a native (and indeed expert) English speaker the answer is no. Why? Because as a native English speaker my understanding of the words "making Irish optional" is clear and unambiguous.

    However, as a native English speaker raised in Ireland and being adept at placing what people say in its appropriate cultural and societal context, in this instance the answer is yes. I'm well used to reading or hearing the gripes and whinges of people who believe they have no capacity to understand the Irish language dressed up as arguments to remove it from the education system and from public life. Those so-called arguments take a variety of forms, and "making it optional" is one of those. But these various "arguments" are no more and no less than thinly-veiled expressions of hostility and frustration on the part of people who - for whatever reason - simply don't have a grasp of Irish.


  • #1553
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Meanwhile, last week the ESRI issued a study which said this:

    "While the attitudes towards the Irish language among primary and post-primary students in the Republic of Ireland are often negative, the report finds considerable support for the language among adult population - 67 per cent of the respondents in the Republic of Ireland and 45 per cent from Northern Ireland felt positive about the Irish language."
    You're being selective, the ESRI also said this:
    New Study Shows that While Attitudes Towards the Irish Language are Broadly Positive, This Does Not Translate Into Significant Use of the Language

    If we define 'support' for Irish, as actually using the language in a person's life, I think we might get a truer picture.


  • #1554
    JacquesSon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 758 ✭✭✭JacquesSon


    Tá Gaeilge agam.

    I have terrible and perhaps indecipherable Irish but the language lives.

    Thuigam go maith ach tá bron orm nach mbíonn áblta caint go spraoi as gaeilge.

    :D


  • #1555
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JacquesSon wrote: »
    Tá Gaeilge agam.

    I have terrible and perhaps indecipherable Irish but the language lives.

    Thuigam go maith ach tá bron orm nach mbíonn áblta caint go spraoi as gaeilge.

    :D

    Úsáid cibé Gaeilge atá agat, agus ná bí buartha faoi.


  • #1556
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Where? From the same posters on this website, often using several nicks in the one discussion to express their pathological hatred for the defining mark of any distinctive culture, its language?
    I've only the one username, I (and I can assume the other posters who at the very least don't want miserable poetry shoved down their throats) can't be bothered breaking the rules against multiple accounts per person.

    BTW, do you think all of the Spanish-speaking countries across Central and South America are some culturally homogeneous group? How about the two Koreas? Or north Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan and Bangladesh?
    I really would welcome if one of the Irish haters - and, as shown, a bit of digging reveals that the person who starts with "I don't hate Irish but..." usually is on record as wishing for its death or engaging in pseudo-racist attacks against people who are culturally Irish - could stand for election specifically on an anti-Irish platform. Meanwhile, last week the ESRI issued a study which said this:

    "While the attitudes towards the Irish language among primary and post-primary students in the Republic of Ireland are often negative, the report finds considerable support for the language among adult population - 67 per cent of the respondents in the Republic of Ireland and 45 per cent from Northern Ireland felt positive about the Irish language."

    The "groundswell of opinion" is, if anything, against the Irish haters - every one of whom, in my experience, are to the far right of the political spectrum on every issue and especially on issues relating to the people who fought for Irish independence and the legitimacy of Irish independence itself (and who usually self-describe as "Libertarian" or some other nutcase neo-fascist ideology beloved of the immature and sociopathic).

    I noticed you don't put the bit about students having a negative opinion about Irish in bold. How are you certain that 67% who have a positive view of Irish still want it made compulsory in schools?


  • #1557
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    You're being selective, the ESRI also said this:



    If we define 'support' for Irish, as actually using the language in a person's life, I think we might get a truer picture.

    By the same idiosyncratic definition of "support", if we define "support" for the Dublin team by the number of people who play on it, we have a total of 15 GAA supporters in Dublin.

    I'll stick with the dictionary's, and the ESRI's, definition of "support" rather than the definition of those who are always trying to put down Irish (and anything else in society they deem to be weaker and thus open to bullying).


  • #1558
    diograis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭diograis


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Úsáid cibé Gaeilge atá agat, agus ná bí buartha faoi.

    Fúithi, as gaeilge is feminine. Close though


  • #1559
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    diograis wrote: »
    Fúithi, as gaeilge is feminine. Close though

    I was actually referencing something else....


    ....ach ná bí buartha faoi. ;)


  • #1560
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    By the same idiosyncratic definition of "support", if we define "support" for the Dublin team by the number of people who play on it, we have a total of 15 GAA supporters in Dublin.

    I'll stick with the dictionary's, and the ESRI's, definition of "support" rather than the definition of those who are always trying to put down Irish (and anything else in society they deem to be weaker and thus open to bullying).

    15 also being the total number of people who use Irish in every day life. Yes, we should spend millions to support them. No one is buying your argument that the actual number of people actually speaking Irish doesn't matter.
    Question: how many people here press "Irish"at the ATM? If Ireland went Irish only and English was outlawed, I would have to move elsewhere. And so would many people.


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  • #1561
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I (and I can assume the other posters who at the very least don't want miserable poetry shoved down their throats)

    Yet, the "miserable poetry" in English and whatever other literature was "forced" down your throat, along with being "forced" to go to school and being "forced" to do pointless equations and formulae and everything else in this apparent concentration camp of schooling is never an issue.

    This is about the bullies looking for a scapegoat for their own failings in life. They get OCD about Irish not because it's uniquely "pointless" - most, if not all, subjects in secondary school are pointless in terms of working life - but because they see a mob picking on something in a weak position and they want a sense of community by joining it and kicking whatever is weaker. That's the long and the short of the motivation of the Irish haters.

    Finally, if, in contrast to the mass of cultural and linguistic experts across the world, you really contend that a language is not critical to cultural distinctiveness I can only put it down to an unawareness of the difference between an identity and a culture; mistaking differences within Spanish-speaking Latin America as primarily "cultural" rather than primarily of identity might indicate this is where the confusion is.


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