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The Irish language is failing.

1…4849515354…94

Comments

  • #1502
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I know it has zero practical value as there are fully zero instances that aren't artificially manufactured by the state when aptitude in Irish is of any benefit.
    So your position is that knowing how to speak Irish is more important and practical than knowing anything about Ireland... where everybody speaks English anyway?

    What are you talking about? :confused:

    Okay well I'm out because I've 3 posts on it and they've already been twisted beyond resemblence with a sneery attitude.


  • #1503
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why would your French be better if you did two hours of French instead of and hour of French and an hour of Irish? Is that a real question?

    Yes believe it or not it is a real question..bravo sir. Beat around the bush all you want but having learnt Irish didn't effect my teaching of French. I don't see what your getting at here? You could say that about any subject so don't use Irish as an excuse here.


  • #1504
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    What makes it irrelevant?

    The fact that next to no one uses it and it is no ones first language.

    It's like someone going to learn computer programming and only being taught useless, redundant programming languages.

    I refuse to do the dead parrot sketch with someone who has been indoctrinated into the mindset that Irish is actually a thing that matters by people who benefit from the entire farce being propped up.

    It's done, it's dead. Stop wasting time and resources with it.


  • #1505
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    sup_dude wrote: »
    What are you talking about? :confused:

    Okay well I'm out because I've 3 posts on it and they've already been twisted beyond resemblence with a sneery attitude.
    You said Irish has practical uses whereas History doesn't.
    You provided a total of no examples.
    You then turned tail.


  • #1506
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    The fact that next to no one uses it and it is no ones first language.

    It's like someone going to learn computer programming and only being taught useless, redundant programming languages.

    I refuse to do the dead parrot sketch with someone who has been indoctrinated into the mindset that Irish is actually a thing that matters by people who benefit from the entire farce being propped up.

    It's done, it's dead. Stop wasting time and resources with it.

    No it's not how can you compare a language to IT programming? Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not. Maybe not the majority of our population but it simply is. So you're completely wrong there.

    Hold on...why are we going into resources and so on here...I simply stated that people use the language and enjoy doing so. Is that a crime? Stick to the issue in hand and stop babbling on about something you don't fully understand.

    I wouldn't mind but your arguments are built on nothing but your own ignorance. You have your opinion I have mine. G'luck


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  • #1507
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Yes believe it or not it is a real question..bravo sir. Beat around the bush all you want but having learnt Irish didn't effect my teaching of French. I don't see what your getting at here? You could say that about any subject so don't use Irish as an excuse here.
    Hard luck, but I can ONLY say that about Irish as Irish is the ONLY subject most people take (because they have to) that is guaranteed 100% useless.
    So yes, if you didn't have to do Irish you could have been better at some other subject instead.


  • #1508
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,318 ✭✭✭✭briany


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    The fact that next to no one uses it and it is no ones first language.

    It's like someone going to learn computer programming and only being taught useless, redundant programming languages.

    Ríomhaire gan WhiteSpace, Ríomhaire gan anam.


  • #1509
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not.
    Pretty ridiculous bringing that up TBH when there's more native habitual Polish and Chinese speakers here.
    They should be compulsory then to leaving cert level, yeah?


  • #1510
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    No it's not how can you compare a language to IT programming? Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not. Maybe not the majority of our population but it simply is. So you're completely wrong there.

    Hold on...why are we going into resources and so on here...I simply stated that people use the language and enjoy doing so. Is that a crime? Stick to the issue in hand and stop babbling on about something you don't fully understand.

    I wouldn't mind but your arguments are built on nothing but your own ignorance. You have your opinion I have mine. G'luck

    We may as well be teaching chocolate teapot making as teaching Irish.

    An utter waste of time and resources in schools. You'd be better off teaching students how to boil an egg.

    It's comparable to useless programming languages because it is as dead and redundant as they are.

    Every governemt that continues to perpetuate the farce of mandatory Irish in schools should be ashamed.


  • #1511
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Hard luck, but I can ONLY say that about Irish as Irish is the ONLY subject most people take (because they have to) that is guaranteed 100% useless.
    So yes, if you didn't have to do Irish you could have been better at some other subject instead.

    whaaaaat?:confused:

    What you fail to understand is that it helped me in this sense...I'm not talking on behalf of everyone else, and for the record I don't think Irish should be compulsory, but I really can't see what your getting at. Tell me what I would have been better at since you know the ins and outs of it all?

    Its useles? Ok that's your opinion, I'm here arguing saying its not because I use it, I know many others who use it therefore it musn't be useless like you say it is.


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  • #1512
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    We may as well be teaching chocolate teapot making as teaching Irish.

    An utter waste of time and resources in schools. You'd be better off teaching students how to boil an egg.

    It's comparable to useless programming languages because it is as dead and redundant as they are.

    Every governemt that continues to perpetuate the farce of mandatory Irish in schools should be ashamed.

    Ooooook, like i've already stated, I have my opinion.... you have yours. I'll continue to carry on speaking Irish either way :D hopefully I won't find a pick axe in my back for wanting to do so.


  • #1513
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Ooooook, like i've already stated, I have my opinion.... you have yours. I'll continue to carry on speaking Irish either way :D hopefully I won't find a pick axe in my back for wanting to do so.
    Nobody cares whether you want to or not.
    What they care about is the state wasting resources and everybody's time forcing them to learn an utterly useless language.
    See the difference?


  • #1514
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Ooooook, like i've already stated, I have my opinion.... you have yours. I'll continue to carry on speaking Irish either way :D hopefully I won't find a pick axe in my back for wanting to do so.

    It's not a matter of opinion.

    The Irish language is demonstrably a corpse and yet we force 100% of students to do it for the Leaving because of a few arsehole loudmouth Gaeligors

    ****ing madness. Let the useless thing rightfully die and we take a step closer to a proper education system with all the useless dead wood cut away.


  • #1515
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    ****ing madness. Let the useless thing rightfully die and we take a step closer to a proper education system with all the useless dead wood cut away.
    TBH, I don't actually want Irish to die.
    It just happens to be the general consensus since nobody appears to want to speak it. And that's democracy folks!


  • #1516
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nobody cares whether you want to or not.
    What they care about is the state wasting resources and everybody's time forcing them to learn an utterly useless language.
    See the difference?

    You skip past most of my argument and come back to say this. Do speak on behalf of everyone else? I'm simply speaking on behalf of myself and don't expect everyone to agree. Your not dealing with the matter in hand its that simple. I'm merely stating that its not a useless language and used by many. For you to suggest otherwise is incorrect. How am I wasting resources by speaking Irish to others who want to speak Irish. I'm not wasting any resources in doing so am I? Your argument is completely invalid by not dealing witht he issue in hand.

    I say I speak Irish and then you get flustered because I do so. Whatever!


  • #1517
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    TBH, I don't actually want Irish to die.
    It just happens to be the general consensus since nobody appears to want to speak it. And that's democracy folks!

    What are your reasons then for not wanting it to die out of interest?


  • #1518
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    No it's not how can you compare a language to IT programming? Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not. Maybe not the majority of our population but it simply is. So you're completely wrong there.

    Hold on...why are we going into resources and so on here...I simply stated that people use the language and enjoy doing so. Is that a crime? Stick to the issue in hand and stop babbling on about something you don't fully understand.

    I wouldn't mind but your arguments are built on nothing but your own ignorance. You have your opinion I have mine. G'luck

    No crime at all.

    Here's the thing though. As a hard working taxpayer, I know a lot of the money I pay goes on a hobby-horse for other people.

    I've got no interest in GAA games either, but in fairness to them, they don't tend to tap me for money at every turn. They don't force my kids to play in their games. We don't participate, we don't pay.

    All grand.

    However the language hawks have a huge sense of entitlement & expect everyone to bankroll their plaything, regardless of the cost or inconveniance to everybody else.

    Thatis the problem a lot of people have with this issue. Keep a few people in some sort of euphoric illusion at the rest of our time effort & expense.

    Remove the state subsidies, grants, handy jobs to be got & so on. How many of them would defend it then I wonder?


  • #1519
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    No crime at all.

    Here's the thing though. As a hard working taxpayer, I know a lot of the money I pay goes on a hobby-horse for other people.

    I've got no interest in GAA games either, but in fairness to them, they don't tend to tap me for money at every turn. They don't force my kids to play in their games. We don't participate, we don't pay.

    All grand.

    However the language hawks have a huge sense of entitlement & expect everyone to bankroll their plaything, regardless of the cost or inconveniance to everybody else.

    Thatis the problem a lot of people have with this issue. Keep a few people in some sort of euphoric illusion at the rest of our time effort & expense.

    Remove the state subsidies, grants, handy jobs to be got & so on. How many of them would defend it then I wonder?

    I agree with you to a point. There are people out there that live off grants and do far too well for themselves off other people's hard earned cash and that's completely wrong, but that's a minority within a minority I feel. Something is simply going to have to change one way or another in relation to the point that you've raised. As far as people defending the language, of course there will be still people defending the language and those people will be defending it simply because they speak it and enjoy doing so, not off sitting on their hole waiting for a grant to come in. You can't tar all Irish speakers with the same brush in saying that we're simply standing there with our hands open but your right in saying that there are people who do.


  • #1520
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    You skip past most of my argument and come back to say this. Do speak on behalf of everyone else? I'm simply speaking on behalf of myself and don't expect everyone to agree. Your not dealing with the matter in hand its that simple. I'm merely stating that its not a useless language and used by many. For you to suggest otherwise is incorrect. How am I wasting resources by speaking Irish to others who want to speak Irish. I'm not wasting any resources in doing so am I? Your argument is completely invalid by not dealing witht he issue in hand.

    I say I speak Irish and then you get flustered because I do so. Whatever!
    Flustered? Where the hell did you make up that from?
    I specifically said I don't care if you want to speak Irish. Is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
    "Many"? Less than regularly speak Polish and Chinese? What does "many" mean here? It's a fudge word much beloved of ad campaigns.
    Did I say YOU wasted resources? Nope. The state has wasted ITS (and by result my) resources teaching and supporting a language that nobody needs and 1 in 1000 people speak regularly.


  • #1521
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    What are your reasons then for not wanting it to die out of interest?
    Well it's more of an indifference TBH. I just don't want it to die, I've no reason to hate a language that people want to use in their own time to no detriment to general society.
    Which unfortunately is what Irish is right now, but I don't blame Irish or even the fact that people want to speak Irish for that.


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  • #1522
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    I agree with you to a point. There are people out there that live off grants and do far too well for themselves off other people's hard earned cash and that's completely wrong, but that's a minority within a minority I feel. Something is simply going to have to change one way or another in relation to the point that you've raised. As far as people defending the language, of course there will be still people defending the language and those people will be defending it simply because they speak it and enjoy doing so, not off sitting on their hole waiting for a grant to come in. You can't tar all Irish speakers with the same brush in saying that we're simply standing there with our hands open but your right in saying that there are people who do.

    Y'see the problem & I'll give you that much, but a lot of the people who defend the Irish language have a vested interest & their sense of entitlement is well established & totally ingrained.

    That's the main problem with a lot of people.

    I made the point about the GAA earlier. GAA games are now bigger than they ever were. Fair play to them, I say.

    Irish music, the same.

    All good news.

    The Irish language has been a victim of a lot of it's supporters IMO. Since the foundation of the State,they got their oar in & have been rowing the boat for all it's worth ever since.

    In fairness they got an awful lot of mileage out of it. Far more than they deserved, given the results.

    For most people from an early age, it's been a problem, something to be endured. A bit like that Uncle who'd arrive drunk at a family wedding & make things a misery for everybody else.


  • #1523
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Flustered? Where the hell did you make up that from?
    I specifically said I don't care if you want to speak Irish. Is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
    "Many"? Less than regularly speak Polish and Chinese? What does "many" mean here? It's a fudge word much beloved of ad campaigns.
    Did I say YOU wasted resources? Nope. The state has wasted ITS (and by result my) resources teaching and supporting a language that nobody needs and 1 in 1000 people speak regularly.

    Flustered in the sense that you've got so worked up over me speaking the language. Do I have to define the word many now? Are we getting to the point where we are defining the literal sense of a word? Many as in MANY. Of course there are more people who speak Polish and Chinese..I never disputed that.

    That's fine, we've established that you don't need nor want to learn the Irish language, yet you don't want to see a 'useless' language die? Can't quite get my head around that point.


  • #1524
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Flustered in the sense that you've got so worked up over me speaking the language. Do I have to define the word many now?.
    I've have repeatedly and specifically stated I DON'T CARE if you speak Irish. It is none of my concern whatsoever. How is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
    While you're at your dictionary, yeah, do give me a definition of "many" that serves any useful purpose in this discussion.
    Here's your "many" in graphical terms:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language#/media/File:Percentage_stating_they_speak_Irish_daily_outside_the_education_system_in_the_2011_census.png


  • #1525
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Y'see the problem & I'll give you that much, but a lot of the people who defend the Irish language have a vested interest & their sense of entitlement is well established & totally ingrained.

    That's the main problem with a lot of people.

    I made the point about the GAA earlier. GAA games are now bigger than they ever were. Fair play to them, I say.

    Irish music, the same.

    All good news.

    The Irish language has been a victim of a lot of it's supporters IMO. Since the foundation of the State,they got their oar in & have been rowing the boat for all it's worth ever since.

    In fairness they got an awful lot of mileage out of it. Far more than they deserved, given the results.

    For most people from an early age, it's been a problem, something to be endured. A bit like that Uncle who'd arrive drunk at a family wedding & make things a misery for everybody else.

    Listen..this argument could go on and on and I will say that there are a minority of Irish speakers who don't do the language any good. I'm merely speaking from what I know, and by no means am I coming on here and saying I know everything, because everyone has different experiences in relation to the the Irish language, be it positive or negative.

    My point is that it is 100% used and is 100% useful.Maybe not to all but there are enough people there who regularly speak it. I'm not defending the dreadful decisions of our government, especially when it comes to funding and how they've dealt with Irish in schools. I'm confident the language will not die out, but for that to happen there needs to be radical changes. We need to rid of the negative stigma that surrounds it and change tact in how its taught in schools. If you force anyone to do something they don't want to do then they're never going to enjoy it. Unfortunately our government don't get that.


  • #1526
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    My point is that it is 100% used and is 100% useful.Maybe not to all but there are enough people there who regularly speak it.
    Less than 1% of the population with daily usage.
    So tell me, should Chinese and Polish be mandatory until Leaving Cert as they are apparently more useful than Irish is?


  • #1527
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Listen..this argument could go on and on and I will say that there are a minority of Irish speakers who don't do the language any good. I'm merely speaking from what I know, and by no means am I coming on here and saying I know everything, because everyone has different experiences in relation to the the Irish language, be it positive or negative.

    My point is that it is 100% used and is 100% useful.Maybe not to all but there are enough people there who regularly speak it. I'm not defending the dreadful decisions of our government, especially when it comes to funding and how they've dealt with Irish in schools. I'm confident the language will not die out, but for that to happen there needs to be radical changes. We need to rid of the negative stigma that surrounds it and change tact in how its taught in schools. If you force anyone to do something they don't want to do then they're never going to enjoy it. Unfortunately our government don't get that.

    Fair enough.

    Would you be willing to let the teaching of the Irish language to be optional in every school across the land?


  • #1528
    FunLover18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Dughorm wrote:
    Have you a positive attitude towards Shakespeare or Calculus? Would you prefer that schools provide people a choice to learn it?

    The position of English and Maths has absolutely zero to do with the survival/decline of Irish. You can argue for compulsory Irish on its own merits or you can play whataboutery.

    Seriously, do most pro compulsory Irishers just put up with "compulsory" Maths and English just so they can use them as a flimsy defence when people suggest making Irish optional.

    This thread is specifically about what can be done about the Irish language and it's place in society, and the position of maths and English has no bearing on that.


  • #1529
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I've have repeatedly and specifically stated I DON'T CARE if you speak Irish. It is none of my concern whatsoever. How is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
    While you're at your dictionary, yeah, do give me a definition of "many" that serves any useful purpose in this discussion.
    Here's your "many" in graphical terms:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language#/media/File:Percentage_stating_they_speak_Irish_daily_outside_the_education_system_in_the_2011_census.png

    I'm still confused as what you are trying to point out. You obviously DO CARE hence why we are having this debate. Your honestly giving me that wiki link to back whatever it is your trying to say.

    What is it that you have trouble understanding...seems to me that its the word 'Many' that's throwing you off. Lets say we do go with this amazing in depth analysis that you've so kindly posted. 40,000-80,000 native Irish speakers it states. It clearly shows that it's a minority who speak the language, which it is. If it's lets say 80,000 that speak the language , it still means that many people still speak it so stop getting so hung up and nitpicking over wording.


  • #1530
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    I'm still confused as what you are trying to point out. You obviously DO CARE hence why we are having this debate. Your honestly giving me that wiki link to back whatever it is your trying to say.
    I care about the state wasting money and schoolkids' time on Irish. I do not care if you speak Irish.
    These are very simple separate issues. Please stop conflating them to you can fabricate some story about me caring whether you speak Irish or not.
    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    What is it that you have trouble understanding...seems to me that its the word 'Many' that's throwing you off. Lets say we do go with this amazing in depth analysis that you've so kindly posted. 40,000-80,000 native Irish speakers it states. It clearly shows that it's a minority who speak the language, which it is. If it's lets say 80,000 that speak the language , it still means that many people still speak it so stop getting so hung up and nitpicking over wording.
    Same question then, still unanswered: do you think Polish and Chinese should be compulsory to LC level?


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  • #1531
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Less than 1% of the population with daily usage.
    So tell me, should Chinese and Polish be mandatory until Leaving Cert as they are apparently more useful than Irish is?

    What in gods name are you on about? No they shouldn't to answer your question...struggling to see your point here yet again.

    Where are you getting your figures btw? Off the ever reliable Wikipedia?


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