Immigration Just Affects the Poor, The Rich Benefit, Easy to Shout Racism.

strandroad · 13-08-2015 12:30PM

There's a couple of good points but plenty of strawmen in McWilliams's post too - namely that middle class does not have to deal with immigrant influx. Every IT company I know has at least 50% foreign born workforce on its books; it's probably well above that in six figure positions, as global experience and often certain cultural traits quickly take such candidates to the top. Healthcare too, top to bottom. Similarly there's plenty of foreign born or born to foreign parents children in private schools, although it may differ from one to another depending on the school's religious allegiance. For the sake of his argument McWilliams would probably prefer call such families "expats" rather than "immigrants" if they are American or French but really in most cases it's exactly what they are. And where do you think an Indian consultant sends her children to? I also happen to live in what he likes to label as an immigrant-free enclave and from a quick count the percentage of foreign nationals living in my road not only matches but exceeds the national average. Full disclosure - I'm one of them. I also happen to come from a country where birth rate keeps falling, whole regions and cities are expected to depopulate significantly in the next 20 years and pensions are basically a pyramid scheme ready to topple over just when the services start to be deeply affected by said depopulation. It does make you see immigration in a different way. Yes, more schools might need to be built here but if these children grow up to be citizens and taxpayers you can't beat the investment.

This is not to say that a debate is not needed - it surely is, in order to make sure that *everyone works and integrates* but I would see it as an indiscriminating welfare state issue much more than an immigration issue as such. I believe that there are systemic problems with the benefits system vs true social support here that if solved well would automatically discourage certain type of immigrants from considering Ireland as well as help with some deep but strictly locally generated issues...

RichardCeann · 13-08-2015 12:35PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

It's dubious to assert immigrants increase pressure on state services since the evidence actually points the other way. For example, as Trinity professor Brian Lucey recently said, immigrants tend to be net contributors:

Something similar was pointed out by economist Ronan Lyons a few years ago after the FG mayor of Limerick went off on a bit of an anti-immigrant tirade:

I stopped reading here:

Looking purely at the employment/unemployment numbers, and assuming their earnings profile is relatively close to the average manufacturing wage

You'd fail a fcuking LC economics assignment with such 'analysis'. 29k immigrants are on the housing list and 39% of those in receipt of rent allowance, spanning 160 different nationalities, are non Irish. There's a few hundred million he forgot to inclue in his 'analysis'. And that's just in housing.

Aidric · 13-08-2015 12:36PM

mhge wrote: »

There's a couple of good points but plenty of strawmen in McWilliams's post too - namely that middle class does not have to deal with immigrant influx. Every IT company I know has at least 50% foreign born workforce on its books; it's probably well above that in six figure positions, as global experience and often certain cultural traits quickly take such candidates to the top. Healthcare too, top to bottom.

True. What about all the nurses and doctors coming from Asia or the Russian programmers working on Wall St?

As with a lot of McWilliams content it has a worthy message but it is let down by populist leanings.

Chips Lovell · 13-08-2015 12:39PM

I think it's pretty obvious what your agenda is.

Lux23 · 13-08-2015 12:40PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We have net emigration - more people are leaving Ireland than coming here - and it's been this way for some time:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2014/

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

That's a really key point, we don't have a problem with immigration and the amount of refugees we take in is a really small amount.

13-08-2015 12:41PM

RichardCeann wrote: »

An increase in the demand in state services is a good thing now? Tell that to someone of the housing list or someone trying to find a place in a semi decent school for their kids.

The provision of new hospitals and schools in areas that were previously neglected (because of emigration) is a bad thing now, is it? Tell that to someone whose child would be sitting in a rat infested school or would have to travel across the county for a hospital bed.

RichardCeann wrote: »

As for the new hospitals, schools etc finally being delivered in South Kerry, that wouldn't have anything to do with Fianna Fail needing Haely Rae on board to form a government in 2007, would it?

As for people like you and David McWilliams dismissing the impact I see around me, that wouldn't have anything to do with a Dublin/urban centric view of migration patterns, would it?

Kerry needs no lesson from the Healy Raes on the effect of inward and outward migration. If you lived or McWilliams in an area that suffered massive losses in population until recent years, you might be more willing to appreciate the benefits of an arrest in that pattern and the installation of basic services.

Christy42 · 13-08-2015 12:42PM

McWilliams doesn't make a point. He just says it needs to talked about which is true. Open borders are crazy. It won't work with the world as it is now but I certainly think we could take a few more. A lot of the problems in Ireland are issues of scale, there isn't enough people in a certain country area to justify a hospital or a school in that area. Stick in more tax payers and the tax take increases enough to justify it, benefit for all.

I mean has anyone opened borders entirely? To migrants from any country that is. There are only so many low skill jobs out there so an increase in population from abroad would have to be somewhat slowed so that people have time to up skill (whether natives or immigrants). Like I said though, Ireland taking in too many people is not close to being an issue yet, no need for the other extreme of shutting our borders either.

RichardCeann · 13-08-2015 12:45PM

Conor74 wrote:

As for people like you and David McWilliams dismissing the impact I see around me, that wouldn't have anything to do with a Dublin/urban centric view of migration patterns, would it?

Kerry needs no lesson from the Healy Raes on the effect of inward and outward migration. If you lived or McWilliams in an area that suffered massive losses in population until recent years, you might be more willing to appreciate the benefits of an arrest in that pattern and the installation of basic services.

I'm from an area of Dublin where, up until relatively recently, young people were more likely to end up addicted to heroin than attend third level education, so spare me the sanctimonious drivel.

Healy-Rae got hundreds of millions of euro worth of goodies for forming a government with FF in 2007. That's why you guys have recieved better amenities and infrastructure. Not because of any influx.

Radly · 13-08-2015 12:52PM

A good day. Maybe now we finally get to have the much needed debate on immigration. The way I see it any debate up until now has been dictated by the far left shutting it down through accusations of racism. A piece like this should open it up so we can allow people with middle of the road views to get involved without fear of such accusations

13-08-2015 12:56PM

RichardCeann wrote: »

...so spare me the sanctimonious drivel.

RichardCeann wrote: »

Tell that to someone of the housing list or someone trying to find a place in a semi decent school for their kids.

You put away your small violin first!

I am enjoying the way you are ticking the boxes, "urban issues real big, rural issues sanctimonious drivel".

RichardCeann wrote: »

I'm from an area of Dublin where, up until relatively recently, young people were more likely to end up addicted to heroin than attend third level education, so spare me the sanctimonious drivel.

Healy-Rae got hundreds of millions of euro worth of goodies for forming a government with FF in 2007. That's why you guys have recieved better amenities and infrastructure. Not because of any influx.

Oh I agree, they did do a bit of a Tony Gregory number. No denying that.

I know you are from Dublin and thus awfully in the know about South Kerry, but I like to think I know more. Allow me that much, oh wise man from big city!

arayess · 13-08-2015 01:06PM

Stheno wrote: »

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

you say that as an IT consultant (contract I believe) which is still a high paying job competition or no competition because at the moment there is a big demand for experienced consultants like you.
And there isn't a huge amount of non-EU It consultants anyway relative to the market.
It's easy to shout "let them all in" in your position.

The same could be said for surgeons...they don't mind the foreign surgeons coming cos there is only a few of them and they're always in demand and they all still earn 200k a year anyway

try work as a tradesman or factory worker and deal with an influx of people who will undercut you from an already "not that great " base.
The very valid "operating base" point was made previously and I endorse it 100%.

It's easy when you earn decent cash to live in an ivory tower and claim that all multiculturalism is beautiful concept.

Permabear · 13-08-2015 01:22PM

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ancapailldorcha · 13-08-2015 01:38PM

Permabear wrote: »

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And yet any mention of restructuring our education system to cut out the obvious dead wood is met with near-disgust as if it were akin to defecating on a tricolour.

nokia69 · 13-08-2015 01:47PM

Permabear wrote: »

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well thats a short term solution, but if you carry on like that for long enough you will have too many immigrants and a large number of pissed off unemployed Irish people

The Randy Riverbeast · 13-08-2015 01:49PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There does seem to be a lot of people who expect to work in whatever area they want, even among graduates. Instead of looking at why a company would want to hire a foreign person and improve themselves or train into another area they want to just stop the competition from competing.

conorhal · 13-08-2015 01:57PM

Permabear wrote: »

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You can't just pluck Paddy Joe out of the dole queue and give him a job as an IT consultant, you can take sombody working as a junoir or as part of your first line support team and train then up though.

The problem is that's stopped happening. I work in IT and it's becoming noticable. Training budgets are a thing of the past and internal promotion has become rare. Why train, upskill or promote when you can just hire a qualified person from abroad?
The ladder is now perceptable being pulled up in many sectors. Instead of insentivising companies to develop employees our idiot policy makers are about to atrophy opportunity. It's short term corporatist thinking and it will kill this country stone dead in time.

Just as one economist put it regarding this sort of short term corporatism 'beware the company that posts record first quater profits from selling it's R&D department', it is also true to say, beware the national economy that that favours under investing in it's citizens.

ancapailldorcha · 13-08-2015 01:59PM

conorhal wrote: »

You can't just pluck Paddy Joe out of the dole queue and give him a job as an IT consultant, you can take sombody working as a junoir or as part of your first line support team and train then up though.

The problem is that's stopped happening. I work in IT and it's becoming noticable. Training budgets are a thing of the past and internal promotion has become rare. Why train, upskill or promote when you can just hire a qualified person from abroad?
The ladder is now perceptable being pulled up in many sectors. Instead of insentivising companies to develop employees our idiot policy makers are about to atrophy opportunity. It's short term corporatist thinking and it will kill this country stone dead in time.

Why should these companies be forced to hire substandard Irish graduates when superior employees can be sourced from abroad? What do you think would be the result of forcing them to invest in something which would take years to produce a return?

conorhal · 13-08-2015 02:06PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why should these companies be forced to hire substandard Irish graduates when superior employees can be sourced from abroad? What do you think would be the result of forcing them to invest in something which would take years to produce a return?

Because it's good for the country and the economy?

I take issue with your use of the phrase 'substandard Irish graduates' however. Why would you assume that they're substandard? Often all they need is an opportunity or experience. The long term consequences of denying citizens that in favour of saving google a couple of bucks will not bode well for this country in the long term or do you think raising and educating a generation of emigration while we import people to do jobs is good for society?

ancapailldorcha · 13-08-2015 02:08PM

conorhal wrote: »

Because it's good for the country and the economy?

I take issue with your use of the phrase 'substandard Irish graduates' however. Why would you assume that they're substandard? Often all they need is an opportunity or experience. The long term consequences of denying citizens that in favour of saving google a couple of bucks will not bode well for this country in the long term or do you think raising and educating a generation of emigration while we import people to do jobs is good for society?

How well off will these people be when Google decides it doesn't enjoy being told how to do business by someone like Enda Kenny?

topper75 · 13-08-2015 02:11PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And yet any mention of restructuring our education system to cut out the obvious dead wood is met with near-disgust as if it were akin to defecating on a tricolour.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why should these companies be forced to hire substandard Irish graduates when superior employees can be sourced from abroad?

I'm no Sigmund Freud, but is there an element of self-loathing deep down in some of the camp who would promote enforced multiculturalism or open borders for Ireland?

Permabear · 13-08-2015 02:11PM

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conorhal · 13-08-2015 02:13PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How well off will these people be when Google decides it doesn't enjoy being told how to do business by someone like Enda Kenny?

Personally I don't enjoy democratically elected leaders of our country being told how this country should be run for it's benefit by Google. I am not a citizen of google so google can STFU.

ancapailldorcha · 13-08-2015 02:14PM

conorhal wrote: »

Personally I don't enjoy democratically elected leaders of our country being told how this country should be run for it's benefit by Google. I am not a citizen of google so google can STFU.

When has this happened?

But yeah, telling a massive American multinational the likes of which the Irish economy is heavily dependent on to STFU is a good idea.

arayess · 13-08-2015 02:16PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm not a factory worker.
if unskilled workers are eventually replaced by robot that is fine - we can look to that in the next generations and change the skills people learn. But that's then this is now.

We as a society should have a obligation to protect the quality of life of the people already here taxpayers, citizens etc... people who have contributed.

Not everybody has the intellect or capacity to be an IT guru or the next Micheal O'eary. But those people are our fellow citizen's, family, friends , neighbours....we should work for a society that allows them to have a decent standard of living.

why should we import people to do the same "unskilled" labour if we have plenty here?
It's only to disenfrancise our lower skilled workers already here with a "race to the bottom" leading to a great level of poverty. People with no jobs or jobs that pay F all...
At present according to social justice Ireland 16% of adults in ireland who live in poverty actually have jobs. That's bananas.

The term working poor isn't part of some ranting by Fr. Trendy or Joe Higgins. It's real .

Society isn't based on IT guru's alone we need a broad spectrum of people - all of who (i hope ) we can agree deserve a decent standard of living.
Until such time as the robots take over we still need factory workers and should treat them with respect and avoid allowing in cheap labour.

Carlos Orange · 13-08-2015 02:18PM

Permabear wrote: »

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It is patently nonsense as a generalised statement. It would obviously depend on the immigrants in question.

conorhal · 13-08-2015 02:21PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

When has this happened?

But yeah, telling a massive American multinational the likes of which the Irish economy is heavily dependent on to STFU is a good idea.

It is a good idea. for .1% of the tax that they're here not to pay I'd imagine they could train up all the employees the need. But sure, lets race to the bottom instead and see how that works out. You know who's not doing that? The Germans, which is why they still have a manufacturing base, high levels of employment and a structured apprentice scheme that wants to put German citizens in jobs in Germany rather then Austrailia.

nokia69 · 13-08-2015 02:22PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I never claimed that the number of jobs in any economy is fixed, I don't think anybody has made that claim

and I don't have a problem with immigration up to a point, I'm just not blind to the down sides, which do exist

as it is now I think things are OK, but I do think we will reach a point where its just too much, and I suspect there are many people who would agree

Aidric · 13-08-2015 02:22PM

arayess wrote: »

We as a society should have a obligation to protect the quality of life of the people already here taxpayers, citizens etc... people who have contributed.

Not everybody has the intellect or capacity to be an IT guru or the next Micheal O'eary. But those people are our fellow citizen's, family, friends , neighbours....we should work for a society that allows them to have a decent standard of living.

why should we import people to do the same "unskilled" labour if we have plenty here?

There is no obligation on the government to provide employment to unskilled workers. Where they do have an obligation is to provide the necessary training or restructuring of the education system to mitigate the skills shortage in the market.

ancapailldorcha · 13-08-2015 02:23PM

conorhal wrote: »

It is a good idea. for .1% of the tax that they're here not to pay I'd imagine they could train up all the employees the need. But sure, lets race to the bottom instead and see how that works out.

And how will we fit the increased welfare bill as a result?

conorhal · 13-08-2015 02:29PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And how will we fit the increased welfare bill as a result?

Perhaps it's skipped your notice, but unlike Germany (the largest economy in Europe) with it's inact manufacturing base, apprenticeship routes to employment and low unemployment rates, Ireland is busy swelling it's welfare budget anway while exporting it's citizens thanks to your kind of short termist thinking. Where do you imagine all the people that need training or experience that could do those jobs will end up exactly?

Your's is nothing but pyramid scheme thinking.

Immigration Just Affects the Poor, The Rich Benefit, Easy to Shout Racism.

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