Amateur Irish Cyclist banned for doping, any Irish amateur runners at the same?.

marchino · 29-07-2015 01:05AM #1

This is just a thought that crossed my mind and was wondering what people's thoughts were on it. I'm not looking for a hate filled thread, just general opinions.
In the past few days, An amateur cyclist from Ireland has been banned for doping after winning a local race.
I'm not aware of the ins and outs of this but one thing is certain, he's been banned for doping (for 2? Years?)
Doping at any level is shameful and unacceptable but, at an amateur levels it seems well ..kinda silly!
But it got me thinking, is there any club/amateur runners out there who could be at the same?
I train hard and bust my ass off, like most others, to be as competitive as my ability allows me and it would be terrible to think my placings in a race would be damaged, due to a cheat.
Has anyone any suspicions of any athlete they know, who's "suddenly improved"? (Obviously no names) Or, who they know for a fact is at it and performing at a high or any level and if so, have you reported them yet? If not why not!
Would it be an idea to do random tests on lads after a local race where there's a couple of hundred euro involved for example, to try weed out the cheats.?
In light of this case, does anyone reckon it's happening in our sport too, more than we'd suspect?.
A Gaa player and cyclist now both recently caught, both amateur sportsmen from Ireland.
Running is as physically exerting as either of them if not more so, I'm wondering is it more common than we'd realise or even dread to contemplate from an amateur "ah your great Johnny" sporting background.

average_runner · 29-07-2015 07:34AM

marchino wrote: »

This is just a thought that crossed my mind and was wondering what people's thoughts were on it. I'm not looking for a hate filled thread, just general opinions.
In the past few days, An amateur cyclist from Ireland has been banned for doping after winning a local race.
I'm not aware of the ins and outs of this but one thing is certain, he's been banned for doping (for 2? Years?)
Doping at any level is shameful and unacceptable but, at an amateur levels it seems well ..kinda silly!
But it got me thinking, is there any club/amateur runners out there who could be at the same?
I train hard and bust my ass off, like most others, to be as competitive as my ability allows me and it would be terrible to think my placings in a race would be damaged, due to a cheat.
Has anyone any suspicions of any athlete they know, who's "suddenly improved"? (Obviously no names) Or, who they know for a fact is at it and performing at a high or any level and if so, have you reported them yet? If not why not!
Would it be an idea to do random tests on lads after a local race where there's a couple of hundred euro involved for example, to try weed out the cheats.?
In light of this case, does anyone reckon it's happening in our sport too, more than we'd suspect?.
A Gaa player and cyclist now both recently caught, both amateur sportsmen from Ireland.
Running is as physically exerting as either of them if not more so, I'm wondering is it more common than we'd realise or even dread to contemplate from an amateur "ah your great Johnny" sporting background.

He blamed his butchers for it. There is a thread on the cycling forum.

I would say there is amateur runners out there cheating, getting pbs, but is it really worth it considering the side effects etc.

Chivito550 · 29-07-2015 07:44AM

From what I hear, doping in amateur rugby in Ireland is not uncommon.

Wild Garlic · 29-07-2015 08:16AM

Sure aren't they all amateurs?

A_Sober_Paddy · 29-07-2015 08:21AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

From what I hear, doping in amateur rugby in Ireland is not uncommon.

You can tell them miles away, its a joke, the about of them taking winstrol & diabol is scary, some of which are only 17 trying to get bigger to get a senor cup place

Notwork Error · 29-07-2015 09:07AM

He's an ex-pro whose excuse is the exact same as Alberto Contador's for his failed clen test which didn't hold any water for him. The likelihood of clenbuterol from contaminated meat triggering a positive test is tiny.

As for doping at an amateur level, I'm not suprised at all as the CIRC report already shone light on doping in amateur in cycling as did a report into triathlons which showed that 1 in 7 ironman triathletes took banned substances. Take into account how unregulated supplements alone are and I'm sure there is a huge number of athletes purposely or accidentally doping in amateur sport. Abuse of inhalers and painkillers probably adds more on top of that again. Then, you will always have the few who will take substances directly.

As long as there is bragging rights or money to be had in anything, no matter what level, some people will break the rules and athletics is no different.

average_runner · 29-07-2015 09:09AM

Notwork Error wrote: »

He's an ex-pro whose excuse is the exact same as Alberto Contador's for his failed clen test which didn't hold any water for him. The likelihood of clenbuterol from contaminated meat triggering a positive test is tiny.

As for doping at an amateur level, I'm not suprised at all as the CIRC report already shone light on doping in amateur in cycling as did a report into triathlons which showed that 1 in 7 ironman triathletes took banned substances. Take into account how unregulated supplements alone are and I'm sure there is a huge number of athletes purposely or accidentally doping in amateur sport. Abuse of inhalers and painkillers probably adds more on top of that again. Then, you will always have the few who will take substances directly.

As long as there is bragging rights or money to be had in anything, no matter what level, some people will break the rules and athletics is no different.

Your last point is so correct

Cabaal · 29-07-2015 11:23AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

From what I hear, doping in amateur rugby in Ireland is not uncommon.

I've heard this also from people playing rugby. apparently very common.
Sad state of affairs

Darkglasses · 29-07-2015 11:25AM

Just a small correction, Ciaran Kelly didn't win the race he tested positive at, just the TT stage. Also, he received a four year ban. Ordinarily it would carry a two year ban, but because of his attempts to cover it up the ban was doubled.

Cabaal · 29-07-2015 11:29AM

Darkglasses wrote: »

Ordinarily it would carry a two year ban, but because of his attempts to cover it up the ban was doubled.

That seems totally appropriate, important to send a warning to others that if you try cover stuff up things are going to be worse for you.

HelenAnne · 29-07-2015 11:33AM

Notwork Error wrote: »

Abuse of inhalers and painkillers probably adds more on top of that again. Then, you will always have the few who will take substances directly.

Are there guidelines for what would be considered abuse? I know in professional / elite sport you have TUEs, but what about the amateur who has to decide for themselves whether or not it's warranted. I have asthma (not particularly exercise-induced, have had it most of my life) and in the winter, when I race on very cold nights, my doctor has advised me to take my inhaler before a race as a preventative. Haven't noticed any speedy improvements from taking it, but if I was at the Olympics, say, would having a prescription be exemption enough, or would a doctor have to look at me before each race and decide if it was warranted on that night or not?

Darkglasses · 29-07-2015 11:34AM

Cabaal wrote: »

That seems totally appropriate, important to send a warning to others that if you try cover stuff up things are going to be worse for you.

Absolutely, the amount of time and hassle spent on that investigation was astonishing. It showed me that the difference between fessing up and covering up isn't just a moral one.

RacoonQueen · 29-07-2015 11:35AM

I've no doubt that there are dopers in athletics...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot more common than we realise. Triathlon too. TI do random drug tests at their events, I've never seen or heard of this happening in AI events though.
There is very little financially to gain from doping at amatuer level, prize money isn't that high!

RayCun · 29-07-2015 11:52AM

I remember bikesnobnyc commenting about how lots of amateur cyclists would welcome drug tests at races, because it would mean they were just like the grown-ups!

I think there's testing at the national championships? but not at most road races

shels4ever · 29-07-2015 12:32PM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've no doubt that there are dopers in athletics...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot more common than we realise. Triathlon too. TI do random drug tests at their events, I've never seen or heard of this happening in AI events though.
There is very little financially to gain from doping at amatuer level, prize money isn't that high!

I've seen a lot, even at XC races there can be testing, mostly at national level etc but still there. I think someone missed out on getting a medal one year as they were dragged away

aero2k · 29-07-2015 12:40PM

HelenAnne wrote: »

Are there guidelines for what would be considered abuse? I know in professional / elite sport you have TUEs, but what about the amateur who has to decide for themselves whether or not it's warranted. I have asthma (not particularly exercise-induced, have had it most of my life) and in the winter, when I race on very cold nights, my doctor has advised me to take my inhaler before a race as a preventative. Haven't noticed any speedy improvements from taking it, but if I was at the Olympics, say, would having a prescription be exemption enough, or would a doctor have to look at me before each race and decide if it was warranted on that night or not?

The Irish Sports Council have lots of info here. If you follow the link to the Eirpharm site, you can type in the name of your medication. Lots of asthma inhalers are permitted if used as per the recommendations. Tablets or injections tend to be restricted or prohibited.

My reading of it is that you don't need a TUE for "permitted" substances. Nobody is ever going to ask me to pee into a bottle after a race, but I did stop taking Ventolin as it's restricted. It is classed as "permitted" for doses up to 1600mcg over 24 hrs, but I wanted to try to stick to medications that are listed as permitted. Like you, I can't say I've found any performance benefit from the low doses of medication I use, but I'm a bit less wheezy in peak hay fever conditions.

Lest I come across as some sort of anti-doping evangelist, I actually despise cheating in all forms - I get annoyed when people take short cuts by running on the footpath*, in fact last time I was at a pub quiz I almost walked out due to the widespread use of smartphones.

*I have to confess to doing this every time I've run the Liberties race - but that's ok because everybody does it there:D

To deal strictly with the topic, in a former life I rode the Gorey 3 day on 3 occasions. It's a great race with a great tradition - Martin Earley was second the first time I rode it, I remember him puncturing and coming flying past me after a wheel change. I thought he was superhuman. I can't understand why anyone would want to dope for an event like that where it should be all about the pure enjoyment of competition and getting the best out of yourself. The real low point though was dragging an innocent third party into it, with the consequent cost for the taxpayer. It's amazing how much support there seems to be for the guilty party on various social media.

Again, digging into my memory banks, there was talk of lads taking various substances in the late 70's / early 80's, not even for racing, just to be the strongest on the Sunday spin. I thought it was all talk, but maybe....

HelenAnne · 29-07-2015 12:46PM

Thanks, aero2k, I had a look at eirpharm, and there is good info on the AAI site too. I think I'll keep taking my inhaler, as needed / directed, for training (like you, I definitely feel it if I don't take it and I go out for a run on a high-pollen night when the grass has just been cut). I'm taking it so I don't get an asthma attack up on Howth summit, miles from home, rather than to performance-enhance. However, If I ever get to National level (unlikely!) I'll keep my fingers crossed my race isn't on a cold, wheeze-inducing night as I certainly wouldn't want to take anything prohibited, no matter how unintentionally.

Thanks!

ETA I'm so with you on the table quiz team! Four of us often go to quizzes together as a determinedly 'clean' quiz team (:-)) and we get more and more agitated by all the smartphones, and tables having loads of extra people on teams!

ThisRegard · 29-07-2015 01:41PM

It would be completely naive to think otherwise.

groovyg · 29-07-2015 01:54PM

For anyone who wants to read about the case its on the ISC website http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Anti-Doping/Resources1/Sanctions/ISADDP-Decision-Ciaran-Kelly-2014.pdf

His whole defence of trying to prove the meat was tainted is like a father ted episode!

TRR_the_turd · 29-07-2015 02:24PM

Notwork Error wrote: »

As for doping at an amateur level, I'm not suprised at all as the CIRC report already shone light on doping in amateur in cycling as did a report into triathlons which showed that 1 in 7 ironman triathletes took banned substances. T

There are a group of guys (ironmen) who socialise in my local pub. I know for a fact at least two of them have taking PEDs in the past (EPO and HGH). I wouldn't mind but they aren't very good. Judging by the size of them they don't take advantage of the boost these drugs would allow to their training. I get the impression they don't realise that these drugs just facilitate you to train/recover harder and that drives performance. I questioned one of them before regards how he bought and administered EPO and I was horrified, was a miracle the guy hadn't killed himself.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've no doubt that there are dopers in athletics...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot more common than we realise. Triathlon too. TI do random drug tests at their events, I've never seen or heard of this happening in AI events though.

Testing at national track champs for sure, not sure about other events. I've also no doubt that there are a few people taking PEDs in local athletics*

*just because I questioned the lads about PEDs doesn't mean I am on them myself

Chivito550 · 29-07-2015 02:39PM

Amateurs engaging in doping in order to improve their PBs has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Doping is never acceptable but at least you can understand it in the context of professionalism, and where there is a financial incentive. Taking drugs to run under 2 minutes for 800, or to clip half an hour off a slow Ironman time is quite embarrassing frankly. I hope there aren't many doing this, for the sake of my faith in the human race as much as anything.

Slow_Runner · 29-07-2015 02:51PM

RayCun wrote: »

I remember bikesnobnyc commenting about how lots of amateur cyclists would welcome drug tests at races, because it would mean they were just like the grown-ups!

I think there's testing at the national championships? but not at most road races

Talking to a competitive cyclist today and he said most of the tests are done by the likes of the UCD cycling team who would have some chemistry students on the team using the opportunity for thesis and such. The organizers are happy as are the clean cyclists.

I think that the fact this guy was caught and banned is great for amateur cycling as it sends a clear message that this crap will not be tolerated. Other sports including running should bring in some sort of random testing - even as a publicity stunt to show they're serious about doping at all levels. Clean up the sport at grass roots level makes it easier to clean up at elite level*

*eventually

ultrapercy · 29-07-2015 02:59PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Amateurs engaging in doping in order to improve their PBs has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Doping is never acceptable but at least you can understand it in the context of professionalism, and where there is a financial incentive. Taking drugs to run under 2 minutes for 800, or to clip half an hour off a slow Ironman time is quite embarrassing frankly. I hope there aren't many doing this, for the sake of my faith in the human race as much as anything.

I sort of agree with you but I'm not sure the motivation to cheat at professional level is purely, or even mostly financial. I think it's as much about fame and status as money. But I agree that at amature level like ourselves it's pathetic (if it exists) because it's really only cheating yourself.

Chivito550 · 29-07-2015 03:04PM

Slow_Runner wrote: »

Talking to a competitive cyclist today and he said most of the tests are done by the likes of the UCD cycling team who would have some chemistry students on the team using the opportunity for thesis and such. The organizers are happy as are the clean cyclists.

I think that the fact this guy was caught and banned is great for amateur cycling as it sends a clear message that this crap will not be tolerated. Other sports including running should bring in some sort of random testing - even as a publicity stunt to show they're serious about doping at all levels. Clean up the sport at grass roots level makes it easier to clean up at elite level*

*eventually

Doing tests cost a fortune. What a complete waste of money testing some lad who runs 17 mins for 5k, funds that are better used elsewhere. Doping at amateur level is not prevalent in running, and if somebody wants to be a clown and risk their health to try run 16 mins, then who cares, his problem. Nobody is being cheated out of anything by any of these supposed dopers. What are you going to do, go back and ask Parkrun to promote you to the "podium" retrospectively.

There's a reason why testing is targeted. In a perfect world there'd be billions of euros dedicated to anti-doping but that's not the reality.

Slow_Runner · 29-07-2015 03:15PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Doing tests cost a fortune. What a complete waste of money testing some lad who runs 17 mins for 5k, funds that are better used elsewhere. Doping at amateur level is not prevalent in running, and if somebody wants to be a clown and risk their health to try run 16 mins, then who cares, his problem. Nobody is being cheated out of anything by any of these supposed dopers. What are you going to do, go back and ask Parkrun to promote you to the "podium" retrospectively.

There's a reason why testing is targeted. In a perfect world there'd be billions of euros dedicated to anti-doping but that's not the reality.

True, not saying there should be testing at every race, but perhaps random testing at a couple of races every year - races where there would be a high quality field. I don't believe the problem in amateur athletics i as bad as some team sports (rugby/GAA) but I'm sure it's there.

I know it'll never happen as the logistics and cost are prohibitive but some of the people winning these races today will be representing Ireland tomorrow and, like it or not, we do have athletes failing tests.

In an ideal world to tackle doping it needs to be started at grass roots - especially in rugby - it shows a stand against doping.

ThisRegard · 29-07-2015 03:50PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Amateurs engaging in doping in order to improve their PBs has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Doping is never acceptable but at least you can understand it in the context of professionalism, and where there is a financial incentive. Taking drugs to run under 2 minutes for 800, or to clip half an hour off a slow Ironman time is quite embarrassing frankly. I hope there aren't many doing this, for the sake of my faith in the human race as much as anything.

By your reckoning nobody (amateur)cheats in any other way either so, like bunking in at certain points during a marathon for example.

Clearlier · 29-07-2015 03:51PM

Tomas Rauktys was an amateur athlete based in Ireland who failed a doping test a couple of years ago. He had some decent results but I don't think that he was ever a threat to become an Olympian.

RayCun · 29-07-2015 04:09PM

Clearlier wrote: »

Tomas Rauktys was an amateur athlete based in Ireland who failed a doping test a couple of years ago. He had some decent results but I don't think that he was ever a threat to become an Olympian.

no, but he was the national champion

Chivito550 · 29-07-2015 04:14PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

By your reckoning nobody (amateur)cheats in any other way either so, like bunking in at certain points during a marathon for example.

Humans will always cheat sadly. But a guy throwing himself on the floor to win a peno in a local 5-a-side is not exactly the same level of risk, danger and stupidity as a guy injecting himself to the eyeballs with EPO to try run sub 16 minutes for 5K.

average_runner · 29-07-2015 04:49PM

If idiots at the lower level of sport want to be stupid and take banned substances, let them off. No way should any sport waste money on these type of idiots.

Instead invest that money into helping the real talent

ThisRegard · 29-07-2015 09:44PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Humans will always cheat sadly. But a guy throwing himself on the floor to win a peno in a local 5-a-side is not exactly the same level of risk, danger and stupidity as a guy injecting himself to the eyeballs with EPO to try run sub 16 minutes for 5K.

Guys in rugby, boxing, GAA, whatever do it. Athletics attracts no more an ethical person.

Amateur Irish Cyclist banned for doping, any Irish amateur runners at the same?.

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