Amateur Irish Cyclist banned for doping, any Irish amateur runners at the same?.

marchino

This is just a thought that crossed my mind and was wondering what people's thoughts were on it. I'm not looking for a hate filled thread, just general opinions.
In the past few days, An amateur cyclist from Ireland has been banned for doping after winning a local race.
I'm not aware of the ins and outs of this but one thing is certain, he's been banned for doping (for 2? Years?)
Doping at any level is shameful and unacceptable but, at an amateur levels it seems well ..kinda silly!
But it got me thinking, is there any club/amateur runners out there who could be at the same?
I train hard and bust my ass off, like most others, to be as competitive as my ability allows me and it would be terrible to think my placings in a race would be damaged, due to a cheat.
Has anyone any suspicions of any athlete they know, who's "suddenly improved"? (Obviously no names) Or, who they know for a fact is at it and performing at a high or any level and if so, have you reported them yet? If not why not!
Would it be an idea to do random tests on lads after a local race where there's a couple of hundred euro involved for example, to try weed out the cheats.?
In light of this case, does anyone reckon it's happening in our sport too, more than we'd suspect?.
A Gaa player and cyclist now both recently caught, both amateur sportsmen from Ireland.
Running is as physically exerting as either of them if not more so, I'm wondering is it more common than we'd realise or even dread to contemplate from an amateur "ah your great Johnny" sporting background.

average_runner

marchino wrote: »

This is just a thought that crossed my mind and was wondering what people's thoughts were on it. I'm not looking for a hate filled thread, just general opinions.
In the past few days, An amateur cyclist from Ireland has been banned for doping after winning a local race.
I'm not aware of the ins and outs of this but one thing is certain, he's been banned for doping (for 2? Years?)
Doping at any level is shameful and unacceptable but, at an amateur levels it seems well ..kinda silly!
But it got me thinking, is there any club/amateur runners out there who could be at the same?
I train hard and bust my ass off, like most others, to be as competitive as my ability allows me and it would be terrible to think my placings in a race would be damaged, due to a cheat.
Has anyone any suspicions of any athlete they know, who's "suddenly improved"? (Obviously no names) Or, who they know for a fact is at it and performing at a high or any level and if so, have you reported them yet? If not why not!
Would it be an idea to do random tests on lads after a local race where there's a couple of hundred euro involved for example, to try weed out the cheats.?
In light of this case, does anyone reckon it's happening in our sport too, more than we'd suspect?.
A Gaa player and cyclist now both recently caught, both amateur sportsmen from Ireland.
Running is as physically exerting as either of them if not more so, I'm wondering is it more common than we'd realise or even dread to contemplate from an amateur "ah your great Johnny" sporting background.

He blamed his butchers for it. There is a thread on the cycling forum.

I would say there is amateur runners out there cheating, getting pbs, but is it really worth it considering the side effects etc.

Chivito550

From what I hear, doping in amateur rugby in Ireland is not uncommon.

Wild Garlic

Sure aren't they all amateurs?

A_Sober_Paddy

Chivito550 wrote: »

From what I hear, doping in amateur rugby in Ireland is not uncommon.

You can tell them miles away, its a joke, the about of them taking winstrol & diabol is scary, some of which are only 17 trying to get bigger to get a senor cup place

Notwork Error

He's an ex-pro whose excuse is the exact same as Alberto Contador's for his failed clen test which didn't hold any water for him. The likelihood of clenbuterol from contaminated meat triggering a positive test is tiny.

As for doping at an amateur level, I'm not suprised at all as the CIRC report already shone light on doping in amateur in cycling as did a report into triathlons which showed that 1 in 7 ironman triathletes took banned substances. Take into account how unregulated supplements alone are and I'm sure there is a huge number of athletes purposely or accidentally doping in amateur sport. Abuse of inhalers and painkillers probably adds more on top of that again. Then, you will always have the few who will take substances directly.

As long as there is bragging rights or money to be had in anything, no matter what level, some people will break the rules and athletics is no different.

average_runner

Notwork Error wrote: »

He's an ex-pro whose excuse is the exact same as Alberto Contador's for his failed clen test which didn't hold any water for him. The likelihood of clenbuterol from contaminated meat triggering a positive test is tiny.

As for doping at an amateur level, I'm not suprised at all as the CIRC report already shone light on doping in amateur in cycling as did a report into triathlons which showed that 1 in 7 ironman triathletes took banned substances. Take into account how unregulated supplements alone are and I'm sure there is a huge number of athletes purposely or accidentally doping in amateur sport. Abuse of inhalers and painkillers probably adds more on top of that again. Then, you will always have the few who will take substances directly.

As long as there is bragging rights or money to be had in anything, no matter what level, some people will break the rules and athletics is no different.

Your last point is so correct

Cabaal

Chivito550 wrote: »

From what I hear, doping in amateur rugby in Ireland is not uncommon.

I've heard this also from people playing rugby. apparently very common.
Sad state of affairs

Darkglasses

Just a small correction, Ciaran Kelly didn't win the race he tested positive at, just the TT stage. Also, he received a four year ban. Ordinarily it would carry a two year ban, but because of his attempts to cover it up the ban was doubled.

Cabaal

Darkglasses wrote: »

Ordinarily it would carry a two year ban, but because of his attempts to cover it up the ban was doubled.

That seems totally appropriate, important to send a warning to others that if you try cover stuff up things are going to be worse for you.

HelenAnne

Notwork Error wrote: »

Abuse of inhalers and painkillers probably adds more on top of that again. Then, you will always have the few who will take substances directly.

Are there guidelines for what would be considered abuse? I know in professional / elite sport you have TUEs, but what about the amateur who has to decide for themselves whether or not it's warranted. I have asthma (not particularly exercise-induced, have had it most of my life) and in the winter, when I race on very cold nights, my doctor has advised me to take my inhaler before a race as a preventative. Haven't noticed any speedy improvements from taking it, but if I was at the Olympics, say, would having a prescription be exemption enough, or would a doctor have to look at me before each race and decide if it was warranted on that night or not?

Darkglasses

Cabaal wrote: »

That seems totally appropriate, important to send a warning to others that if you try cover stuff up things are going to be worse for you.

Absolutely, the amount of time and hassle spent on that investigation was astonishing. It showed me that the difference between fessing up and covering up isn't just a moral one.

RacoonQueen

I've no doubt that there are dopers in athletics...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot more common than we realise. Triathlon too. TI do random drug tests at their events, I've never seen or heard of this happening in AI events though.
There is very little financially to gain from doping at amatuer level, prize money isn't that high!

RayCun

I remember bikesnobnyc commenting about how lots of amateur cyclists would welcome drug tests at races, because it would mean they were just like the grown-ups!

I think there's testing at the national championships? but not at most road races

shels4ever

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've no doubt that there are dopers in athletics...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot more common than we realise. Triathlon too. TI do random drug tests at their events, I've never seen or heard of this happening in AI events though.
There is very little financially to gain from doping at amatuer level, prize money isn't that high!

I've seen a lot, even at XC races there can be testing, mostly at national level etc but still there. I think someone missed out on getting a medal one year as they were dragged away

aero2k

HelenAnne wrote: »

Are there guidelines for what would be considered abuse? I know in professional / elite sport you have TUEs, but what about the amateur who has to decide for themselves whether or not it's warranted. I have asthma (not particularly exercise-induced, have had it most of my life) and in the winter, when I race on very cold nights, my doctor has advised me to take my inhaler before a race as a preventative. Haven't noticed any speedy improvements from taking it, but if I was at the Olympics, say, would having a prescription be exemption enough, or would a doctor have to look at me before each race and decide if it was warranted on that night or not?

The Irish Sports Council have lots of info here. If you follow the link to the Eirpharm site, you can type in the name of your medication. Lots of asthma inhalers are permitted if used as per the recommendations. Tablets or injections tend to be restricted or prohibited.

My reading of it is that you don't need a TUE for "permitted" substances. Nobody is ever going to ask me to pee into a bottle after a race, but I did stop taking Ventolin as it's restricted. It is classed as "permitted" for doses up to 1600mcg over 24 hrs, but I wanted to try to stick to medications that are listed as permitted. Like you, I can't say I've found any performance benefit from the low doses of medication I use, but I'm a bit less wheezy in peak hay fever conditions.

Lest I come across as some sort of anti-doping evangelist, I actually despise cheating in all forms - I get annoyed when people take short cuts by running on the footpath*, in fact last time I was at a pub quiz I almost walked out due to the widespread use of smartphones.

*I have to confess to doing this every time I've run the Liberties race - but that's ok because everybody does it there:D

To deal strictly with the topic, in a former life I rode the Gorey 3 day on 3 occasions. It's a great race with a great tradition - Martin Earley was second the first time I rode it, I remember him puncturing and coming flying past me after a wheel change. I thought he was superhuman. I can't understand why anyone would want to dope for an event like that where it should be all about the pure enjoyment of competition and getting the best out of yourself. The real low point though was dragging an innocent third party into it, with the consequent cost for the taxpayer. It's amazing how much support there seems to be for the guilty party on various social media.

Again, digging into my memory banks, there was talk of lads taking various substances in the late 70's / early 80's, not even for racing, just to be the strongest on the Sunday spin. I thought it was all talk, but maybe....

HelenAnne

Thanks, aero2k, I had a look at eirpharm, and there is good info on the AAI site too. I think I'll keep taking my inhaler, as needed / directed, for training (like you, I definitely feel it if I don't take it and I go out for a run on a high-pollen night when the grass has just been cut). I'm taking it so I don't get an asthma attack up on Howth summit, miles from home, rather than to performance-enhance. However, If I ever get to National level (unlikely!) I'll keep my fingers crossed my race isn't on a cold, wheeze-inducing night as I certainly wouldn't want to take anything prohibited, no matter how unintentionally.

Thanks!

ETA I'm so with you on the table quiz team! Four of us often go to quizzes together as a determinedly 'clean' quiz team (:-)) and we get more and more agitated by all the smartphones, and tables having loads of extra people on teams!

ThisRegard

It would be completely naive to think otherwise.

groovyg

For anyone who wants to read about the case its on the ISC website http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Anti-Doping/Resources1/Sanctions/ISADDP-Decision-Ciaran-Kelly-2014.pdf

His whole defence of trying to prove the meat was tainted is like a father ted episode!

TRR_the_turd

Notwork Error wrote: »

As for doping at an amateur level, I'm not suprised at all as the CIRC report already shone light on doping in amateur in cycling as did a report into triathlons which showed that 1 in 7 ironman triathletes took banned substances. T

There are a group of guys (ironmen) who socialise in my local pub. I know for a fact at least two of them have taking PEDs in the past (EPO and HGH). I wouldn't mind but they aren't very good. Judging by the size of them they don't take advantage of the boost these drugs would allow to their training. I get the impression they don't realise that these drugs just facilitate you to train/recover harder and that drives performance. I questioned one of them before regards how he bought and administered EPO and I was horrified, was a miracle the guy hadn't killed himself.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I've no doubt that there are dopers in athletics...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot more common than we realise. Triathlon too. TI do random drug tests at their events, I've never seen or heard of this happening in AI events though.

Testing at national track champs for sure, not sure about other events. I've also no doubt that there are a few people taking PEDs in local athletics*

*just because I questioned the lads about PEDs doesn't mean I am on them myself

Chivito550

Amateurs engaging in doping in order to improve their PBs has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Doping is never acceptable but at least you can understand it in the context of professionalism, and where there is a financial incentive. Taking drugs to run under 2 minutes for 800, or to clip half an hour off a slow Ironman time is quite embarrassing frankly. I hope there aren't many doing this, for the sake of my faith in the human race as much as anything.

Slow_Runner

RayCun wrote: »

I remember bikesnobnyc commenting about how lots of amateur cyclists would welcome drug tests at races, because it would mean they were just like the grown-ups!

I think there's testing at the national championships? but not at most road races

Talking to a competitive cyclist today and he said most of the tests are done by the likes of the UCD cycling team who would have some chemistry students on the team using the opportunity for thesis and such. The organizers are happy as are the clean cyclists.

I think that the fact this guy was caught and banned is great for amateur cycling as it sends a clear message that this crap will not be tolerated. Other sports including running should bring in some sort of random testing - even as a publicity stunt to show they're serious about doping at all levels. Clean up the sport at grass roots level makes it easier to clean up at elite level*


*eventually

ultrapercy

Chivito550 wrote: »

Amateurs engaging in doping in order to improve their PBs has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Doping is never acceptable but at least you can understand it in the context of professionalism, and where there is a financial incentive. Taking drugs to run under 2 minutes for 800, or to clip half an hour off a slow Ironman time is quite embarrassing frankly. I hope there aren't many doing this, for the sake of my faith in the human race as much as anything.

I sort of agree with you but I'm not sure the motivation to cheat at professional level is purely, or even mostly financial. I think it's as much about fame and status as money. But I agree that at amature level like ourselves it's pathetic (if it exists) because it's really only cheating yourself.

Chivito550

Slow_Runner wrote: »

Talking to a competitive cyclist today and he said most of the tests are done by the likes of the UCD cycling team who would have some chemistry students on the team using the opportunity for thesis and such. The organizers are happy as are the clean cyclists.

I think that the fact this guy was caught and banned is great for amateur cycling as it sends a clear message that this crap will not be tolerated. Other sports including running should bring in some sort of random testing - even as a publicity stunt to show they're serious about doping at all levels. Clean up the sport at grass roots level makes it easier to clean up at elite level*


*eventually

Doing tests cost a fortune. What a complete waste of money testing some lad who runs 17 mins for 5k, funds that are better used elsewhere. Doping at amateur level is not prevalent in running, and if somebody wants to be a clown and risk their health to try run 16 mins, then who cares, his problem. Nobody is being cheated out of anything by any of these supposed dopers. What are you going to do, go back and ask Parkrun to promote you to the "podium" retrospectively.

There's a reason why testing is targeted. In a perfect world there'd be billions of euros dedicated to anti-doping but that's not the reality.

Slow_Runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Doing tests cost a fortune. What a complete waste of money testing some lad who runs 17 mins for 5k, funds that are better used elsewhere. Doping at amateur level is not prevalent in running, and if somebody wants to be a clown and risk their health to try run 16 mins, then who cares, his problem. Nobody is being cheated out of anything by any of these supposed dopers. What are you going to do, go back and ask Parkrun to promote you to the "podium" retrospectively.

There's a reason why testing is targeted. In a perfect world there'd be billions of euros dedicated to anti-doping but that's not the reality.

True, not saying there should be testing at every race, but perhaps random testing at a couple of races every year - races where there would be a high quality field. I don't believe the problem in amateur athletics i as bad as some team sports (rugby/GAA) but I'm sure it's there.

I know it'll never happen as the logistics and cost are prohibitive but some of the people winning these races today will be representing Ireland tomorrow and, like it or not, we do have athletes failing tests.

In an ideal world to tackle doping it needs to be started at grass roots - especially in rugby - it shows a stand against doping.

ThisRegard

Chivito550 wrote: »

Amateurs engaging in doping in order to improve their PBs has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Doping is never acceptable but at least you can understand it in the context of professionalism, and where there is a financial incentive. Taking drugs to run under 2 minutes for 800, or to clip half an hour off a slow Ironman time is quite embarrassing frankly. I hope there aren't many doing this, for the sake of my faith in the human race as much as anything.

By your reckoning nobody (amateur)cheats in any other way either so, like bunking in at certain points during a marathon for example.

Clearlier

Tomas Rauktys was an amateur athlete based in Ireland who failed a doping test a couple of years ago. He had some decent results but I don't think that he was ever a threat to become an Olympian.

RayCun

Clearlier wrote: »

Tomas Rauktys was an amateur athlete based in Ireland who failed a doping test a couple of years ago. He had some decent results but I don't think that he was ever a threat to become an Olympian.

no, but he was the national champion

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

By your reckoning nobody (amateur)cheats in any other way either so, like bunking in at certain points during a marathon for example.

Humans will always cheat sadly. But a guy throwing himself on the floor to win a peno in a local 5-a-side is not exactly the same level of risk, danger and stupidity as a guy injecting himself to the eyeballs with EPO to try run sub 16 minutes for 5K.

average_runner

If idiots at the lower level of sport want to be stupid and take banned substances, let them off. No way should any sport waste money on these type of idiots.

Instead invest that money into helping the real talent

ThisRegard

Chivito550 wrote: »

Humans will always cheat sadly. But a guy throwing himself on the floor to win a peno in a local 5-a-side is not exactly the same level of risk, danger and stupidity as a guy injecting himself to the eyeballs with EPO to try run sub 16 minutes for 5K.

Guys in rugby, boxing, GAA, whatever do it. Athletics attracts no more an ethical person.

marchino

Slow_Runner wrote: »

Talking to a competitive cyclist today and he said most of the tests are done by the likes of the UCD cycling team who would have some chemistry students on the team using the opportunity for thesis and such. The organizers are happy as are the clean cyclists.

I think that the fact this guy was caught and banned is great for amateur cycling as it sends a clear message that this crap will not be tolerated. Other sports including running should bring in some sort of random testing - even as a publicity stunt to show they're serious about doping at all levels. Clean up the sport at grass roots level makes it easier to clean up at elite level*


*eventually

Yes I agree, it should be at Random races, ie. Rathfarnham 5k, Kilcock 5k, wherever.
Let's send a message from the bottom up and keep a level playing field.

marchino

average_runner wrote: »

If idiots at the lower level of sport want to be stupid and take banned substances, let them off. No way should any sport waste money on these type of idiots.

Instead invest that money into helping the real talent

Let them off? What about guys like myself, who train 6/7 days a week to run competitively in the smaller races, right up to a national level. Races that support local clubs, youth development ect.
Training damn hard too.
I'm not doing my 17 mile run this Sunday, to be someone who's just an idiot competing at a low idiot level, against potentially bigger idiots.
Invest the money in real talent? how about kick it out at grass roots level.
Even that last comment is very disrespectful to every club athlete who try's their hardest to compete at a good level. If your not bothered to compete at a decent level, then that's you're choice. I know for a fact you're not, cause if you were, you would care about finishing 2nd in an idiot 5k having ran 16:10, With your family and kids watching. Asking did you win daddy.. That's still hard running, that requires hard training. Who's to say the guy who ran 16:04 (all examples, not personal) to win, isn't doing so unfairly. (The kids thing is over the top I know, I don't even have kids, but I'm only trying to make a point, that everyone deserves a level playing field)
Random tests, not every race. A Budget can be put in place for that.

Krusty_Clown

There should be random drug testing at AAI approved events. It should be part of the licensing/approval process (and the license fee increased to cover 'potential'drug testing (wouldn't have to cover the full cost, as it's random). If It was part of the consent form when you register for a race and the AAI introduced a 'no tolerance' race classification and logo, then at least it would increase visibility and act as a deterrent to those who do cheat.

The only thing that bothers me about a thread like this, is that it encourages witch hunts and finger pointing. We've all had that race experience where somebody we were comfortably beating the previous season pulls one out of the bag and beats you in a race that you ran well in. We can't figure out what could have possibly changed that would have turned the tables to such an extent. It is too easy to come to the conclusion that cheating is involved as it's easier to stomach than the alternative - that they may be training harder and smarter than you are. We all play the guessing game. 'Is he on drugs? It's the only way he could have made that level of improvement' type of thing. Irish begrugery is part of our national heritage.

You don't catch drug cheats by conjecture and gossip. You catch drug cheats by testing (even if that process isn't always foolproof). So the focus should be on increasing awareness and testing scrutiny, so that it is made very clear that cheating is not welcome at any level in our sport, even at additional cost.

Chivito550

Guys, at our level, there is next to nobody doping. Maybe the odd one or two clowns, but this is really being blown out of proportion. I've very much got a zero tolerance to doping, but think that testing middle to back of back club runners to be a complete waste of funds, funds that can be used to test our elite athletes. The more testing for elite athletes, the greater the deterrent to begin with.

Also, if somebody is coming second in races (other than masters races) by running 16 minutes then I think that person would be better off running in more challenging races, rather than looking for anti-doping measures to implemented in soft races.

average_runner

marchino wrote: »

Yes I agree, it should be at Random races, ie. Rathfarnham 5k, Kilcock 5k, wherever.
Let's send a message from the bottom up and keep a level playing field.

Are you willing to pay the extra costs for this?

dna_leri

Drug testing at random 5K races? I don't think so - a total waste of money. If there are some fellas cheating for the sake of 50 euro prize money, the chances of them getting caught is also low.
Anyone know how much it takes to get a test done at a Qualified WADA lab ?
Don't tell me it can be done by a few lads studying chemistry in UCD. Without the full WADA protocols, no ban would stand up in any court.
Testing is done at National competition level, including XC. Keep the money and resources focused on what's important for the sport. No apology to anyone whose ego is damaged by coming 2nd in a 5K. We are all fun runners here.

average_runner

marchino wrote: »

Let them off? What about guys like myself, who train 6/7 days a week to run competitively in the smaller races, right up to a national level. Races that support local clubs, youth development ect.
Training damn hard too.
I'm not doing my 17 mile run this Sunday, to be someone who's just an idiot competing at a low idiot level, against potentially bigger idiots.
Invest the money in real talent? how about kick it out at grass roots level.
Even that last comment is very disrespectful to every club athlete who try's their hardest to compete at a good level. If your not bothered to compete at a decent level, then that's you're choice. I know for a fact you're not, cause if you were, you would care about finishing 2nd in an idiot 5k having ran 16:10, With your family and kids watching. Asking did you win daddy.. That's still hard running, that requires hard training. Who's to say the guy who ran 16:04 (all examples, not personal) to win, isn't doing so unfairly. (The kids thing is over the top I know, I don't even have kids, but I'm only trying to make a point, that everyone deserves a level playing field)
Random tests, not every race. A Budget can be put in place for that.

Sorry but your doing your 17 mile run for yourself and no one else. Yes your trying hardest to compete at a good level, but most club runners are competing against their own pb's. So if mr A runs a 18 min 5k and is on drugs, its going to have no effect on anyone.


And if 16 mins is getting a second spot in race, pretty low quality race unless its masters

And if you want testing at all small races, maybe donate your winnings towards the cost of it, help the authorities.

Chivito550

dna_leri wrote: »

Drug testing at random 5K races? I don't think so - a total waste of money. If there are some fellas cheating for the sake of 50 euro prize money, the chances of them getting caught is also low.
Anyone know how much it takes to get a test done at a Qualified WADA lab ?
Don't tell me it can be done by a few lads studying chemistry in UCD. Without the full WADA protocols, no ban would stand up in any court.
Testing is done at National competition level, including XC. Keep the money and resources focused on what's important for the sport. No apology to anyone whose ego is damaged by coming 2nd in a 5K. We are all fun runners here.

The prize money would not cover the financial costs of the EPO.

Krusty_Clown

Chivito550 wrote: »

Guys, at our level, there is next to nobody doping. Maybe the odd one or two clowns, but this is really being blown out of proportion. I've very much got a zero tolerance to doping, but think that testing middle to back of back club runners to be a complete waste of funds, funds that can be used to test our elite athletes. The more testing for elite athletes, the greater the deterrent to begin with.

Also, if somebody is coming second in races (other than masters races) by running 16 minutes then I think that person would be better off running in more challenging races, rather than looking for anti-doping measures to implemented in soft races.

Even if there is nobody doping at our level, then the education and zero tolerance policy should still begin at amateur level. Today's amateur is tomorrow's elite runner. If the cost is borne by the race/race entrants - then there are only positives.

But yeah, if being beaten into second place with a 16 minute time for 5k is grounds for suspicion, then we should hang our heads in shame, that our standards have dropped so low.

Chivito550

Just as a side note, are people actually earning prize money for running 16+ minutes for 5K?

Boy, did I choose the wrong discipline if so!

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Even if there is nobody doping at our level, then the education and zero tolerance policy should still begin at amateur level. Today's amateur is tomorrow's elite runner. If the cost is borne by the race/race entrants - then there are only positives.

But yeah, if being beaten into second place with a 16 minute time for 5k is grounds for suspicion, then we should hang our heads in shame, that our standards have dropped so low.

Maybe that's an idea, have the race entrant pay for the test. If we care that much about the grass root levels.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

Guys, at our level, there is next to nobody doping.

But they will find lots of people who have forgotten to complete their TUE's.

I'd be happy to be tested for coming second in a parkrun, and I'd be happy for them to use my results to practice what a failed result looks like for their trainee testers. I'd be fighting them all the way that I could though, if they then decided to ban me due to a lack of TUE for prescription drugs and they then tried to prevent me from being able to claim my next free tshirt from parkrun, or bottle of cheap win for winning a local 10km.

I agree that there is not going to be a whole lot of doping going on at our level in running. But there is going to be a whole lot of people who have unintentionally taken one too many puffs on their inhaler before the race, or have taken the wrong brand of Vicks for their cold, or are on a multitude of other drugs and vitamins that whilst banned at the top level for very good reason make absolutely no difference that is worth testing for at our level. There would be a huge number of failures, and a lot of very annoyed club runners who then find themselves banned from running for no real reason and a lot of sob stories being printed in the tabloids when they are short of real news about some charity runner being banned from running their marathon because they took a vitamin supplement that they got off the shelf in the supermarket.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

Maybe that's an idea, have the race entrant pay for the test. If we care that much about the grass root levels.

Not sure race entrants will be too keen on a €200 entry fee to a local 5K!

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not sure race entrants will be too keen on a €200 entry fee to a local 5K!

You can't have it all.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just as a side note, are people actually earning prize money for running 16+ minutes for 5K?

Boy, did I choose the wrong discipline if so!

I've won vouchers, bottles of beer and wine for placing in 5kms locally and my pb is still not sub 17.

Unfortunately that race has now changed location and route so that lots more fast guys can get to it as it is next to a big motorway junction, it used to be won in about mid 16 minutes unless one particular fast guy turned up. Now there are loads of them turning up and I'd even be lucky to get a vets prize.

ultrapercy

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just as a side note, are people actually earning prize money for running 16+ minutes for 5K?

Boy, did I choose the wrong discipline if so!

Some small races have cash prizes. I won 200 euro some years back for third place in 15.40 in a big local 5k. I won a top of the market TV for a sub 32 10k win and most notable 1200 euro for a longford marathon win in 2.33. Recently I have picked up a couple of 100 euro pots for 15.30 to 16 equivalent performances. So in answer to you question, yes cash can be picked up for running 16 min type performance but there is no way you could make money from the sport at that level it's a hobby. Running costs me more money than Il ever win by a factor of 100 trough gear travel race entry etc but it's nice to pick up an odd decent prize same as local darts players, pool players quiz heads or fishermen do for much less time investment on their part. A race is a race and the prize is there to be won by anyone capable of winning it, if I win it with 16.00 it's because nobody in the race was able to run 15.59.

marchino

average_runner wrote: »

Sorry but your doing your 17 mile run for yourself and no one else. Yes your trying hardest to compete at a good level, but most club runners are competing against their own pb's. So if mr A runs a 18 min 5k and is on drugs, its going to have no effect on anyone.


And if 16 mins is getting a second spot in race, pretty low quality race unless its masters

And if you want testing at all small races, maybe donate your winnings towards the cost of it, help the authorities.

Firstly, your promoting drug use by saying it has no affect on anyone.
So it's okay for someone cool like An Olympic athlete to take them, cause it does have an effect on people?. Like crap it does, wake up, no one else outside of running or triathlon genre circles, care either, not even the tax payer, only those who like to bitch about it taking plac because they hear about it on the radio, but they wouldn't understand the meaning of a Fartlek run.
By asking for an odd random test, im not bitching, it's trying to promote a fair sport for everyone and if it didn't matter, then why are the cyclist and GAA player now banned? They're only amateur athletes too.
And if You consider 5:10/5:15 mile pace a low grade for 5k, then it's obvious you don't have a clue about the effort required in running that pace. It's not a top level no, I'm not claiming it is, It's doesn't matter if it's 10 minute mile pace, the point is to weed out drug cheats, but we're not talking about top level either, we're talking about local club races, that actually support these clubs to stay in existence and bring on the next generation on High grade talent. I'd happily donate a monthly fee to athletics Ireland to promote random testing, at Rathfarnham 5k ect;
If we raise entries of certain races where there will be testing, then your wasting the need for a test, because the cheat will see it and stay away.
I know the standard between 13 mins 5k and 16 minutes are a world apart, no one is being nieve on that fact, but there is already testing in place for those athletes, what Iam suggesting is for it to be introduced at club level, to weed it out across the board. And if you're idea of high grade 5k's is going ahead, you're going to have a poor race entry, cause how many men in Ireland can run sub 13 minutes for 5k,,?? Or ladies sub 15?? So the real high level standard you're referring to doesn't exist. You can promote it too the eyeballs and grass roots, but there still never will be many/any Irish athletes running sub 13 or sub 14:30. Has their ever been one of either..? No, alaister Cragg maybe, but he's South African. So I'm afraid you you can promote it as much as you want, but we're never going to competitive at the highest level. That being sub 12:50. So we may aswell tackle what we actually have and not something we don't.

marchino

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just as a side note, are people actually earning prize money for running 16+ minutes for 5K?

Boy, did I choose the wrong discipline if so!

I've gotten €100+ for 16 minutes +
Enough effort is put in and it's nice to getting something back.
In a field of 300 runners avr, it's only 10 entries x (€10).

HelenAnne

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just as a side note, are people actually earning prize money for running 16+ minutes for 5K?

Boy, did I choose the wrong discipline if so!

it depends on the race. I've won about €150 this summer in various races, and I am a) not fast, and b) quite old . I've never gone on a pot-hunting trip or anything, but sometimes on holidays I've done a local race and won something, and the race series, for example, gives prizes to the first 20 male and female finishers, so people don't need to be burning up the roads to get a prize there.

It doesn't fool me into thinking I'm a front of the pack runner or that I could beat women running what would be considered good times, but it's a nice surprise, and in the case of the race series, has more than covered my entry fees.

You chose the wrong discipline!

Chivito550

marchino wrote: »

Firstly, your promoting drug use by saying it has no affect on anyone.
So it's okay for someone cool like An Olympic athlete to take them, cause it does have an effect on people?. Like crap it does, wake up, no one else outside of running or triathlon genre circles, care either, not even the tax payer, only those who like to bitch about it taking plac because they hear about it on the radio, but they wouldn't understand the meaning of a Fartlek run.
By asking for an odd random test, im not bitching, it's trying to promote a fair sport for everyone and if it didn't matter, then why are the cyclist and GAA player now banned? They're only amateur athletes too.
And if You consider 5:10/5:15 mile pace a low grade for 5k, then it's obvious you don't have a clue about the effort required in running that pace. It's not a top level no, I'm not claiming it is, It's doesn't matter if it's 10 minute mile pace, the point is to weed out drug cheats, but we're not talking about top level either, we're talking about local club races, that actually support these clubs to stay in existence and bring on the next generation on High grade talent. I'd happily donate a monthly fee to athletics Ireland to promote random testing, at Rathfarnham 5k ect;
If we raise entries of certain races where there will be testing, then your wasting the need for a test, because the cheat will see it and stay away.
I know the standard between 13 mins 5k and 16 minutes are a world apart, no one is being nieve on that fact, but there is already testing in place for those athletes, what Iam suggesting is for it to be introduced at club level, to weed it out across the board. And if you're idea of high grade 5k's is going ahead, you're going to have a poor race entry, cause how many men in Ireland can run sub 13 minutes for 5k,,?? Or ladies sub 15?? So the real high level standard you're referring to doesn't exist. You can promote it too the eyeballs and grass roots, but there still never will be many/any Irish athletes running sub 13 or sub 14:30. Has their ever been one of either..? No, alaister Cragg maybe, but he's South African. So I'm afraid you you can promote it as much as you want, but we're never going to competitive at the highest level. That being sub 12:50. So we may aswell tackle what we actually have and not something we don't.

If a 16 minute 5K doper denies you any of the following then I agree we should bring in random drug testing for average club runners:

1) A place on an Irish team for an International Championship
2) Sponsorship/ Government Funding
3) A National Championship medal (testing takes place at Nationals anyway)
4) SIGNIFICANT prize money

Otherwise it’s a complete waste of scarce resources. If you are running to try pick up the odd €50 voucher, or so your kids think you are great, then you really are running for the wrong reasons.

Why stop at in-competition testing though. We all know it doesn't work well. Lets have out of competition testing for average club runners and recreational runners. That should be easy to do!