The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

BlaasForRafa · 24-07-2015 01:33AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Why is the death of any American of any colour worth so much more than the deaths of others? Why these stories and not Mexico. How much more column inches does every American death -- however appalling within its own society -- get than the deaths caused by American militarism or proxy warmongering by its client States, or paramilitaries?

If you want to talk about violence in Mexico or American militarism then go start a thread about it, otherwise quit the whataboutery.

Billy86 · 24-07-2015 01:39AM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So it was a perfectly reasonable request then,yeah? Glad we cleared up that. That's what the conversation was about. Nothing else.

Is that how you deal with people in your everyday life btw? Standing there smoking in their face and if they ask you not to you just say "no, you can't legally make me stop"? Or would it be common courtesy to not do it?

It wasn't a reasonable request in the context of him having got right up behind her, causing her to have to pull into the slow lane, only top pull her over for not indicating when doing so.

As for the second part, if I am driving and having a smoke while doing so, and someone walks up to my window, then no I am not going to put out the smoke for then. Likewise, if I am in a beer garden and someone comes around begging, should I put the smoke out for then while they leer over my table? Should I f***.

It's not as if she had initiated the meeting, so no he does not have a right to demand she put her cigarette out. If she had approached him asking for directions or whatnot, then he would have a right to ask.

CSF · 24-07-2015 02:23AM

The 'she should have done exactly what the police told her and this wouldn't have happened' seems dangerously like the 'she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt' argument. The woman has done nothing illegal in her dealings with the police officer so we shouldn't be discussing what she has done wrong at all, because she hasn't. The police officer has. He has completely overstepped his boundaries as a police officer and now as a result of him doing so unnecessarily, a situation has been created which has led to the death of a young woman. Whether he had any involvement in her death or not, he is responsible. He created the situation that led to her death.

But these 'she should have put the smoke out' people. A woman has died due to a police powertrip at best, police violence at worst, and you're talking about whether it was bad manners not to put a cigarette out. What planet are you people living on?

whitey1 · 24-07-2015 03:02AM

Having lived in the States for 21+ years, and as someone who drives 35k miles per year for work, the #1 rule when your pulled over by a cop is to be cooperative and polite......doesn't matter what race, gender or nationality you are.

FFS a right wing, white, female, radio host from Boston was recently stopped for drink driving. Struggle ensued when the cops tried to slap the cuffs on her due to lack of cooperation. She ended up requiring about 20 stitches for an injury sustained in the kerfufle......guess how much sympathy people have for her?

If you guessed zero....you'd be bang on the money (read the comments attached to the article)

http://www.bostonherald.com/comments/1064874536

This TX case absolutely NOTHING to do with race. A lot of people commenting seem to have little understanding of US law......you MUST obey a direct order from a police officer or face the possibility of arrest. Whether he orders you to put out your cigarette or to get out of your car....failure to comply can (and probably will) lead to your arrest

The_Valeyard · 24-07-2015 03:08AM

whitey1 wrote: »

Having lived in the States for 21+ years, and as someone who drives 35k miles per year for work, the #1 rule when your pulled over by a cop is to be cooperative and polite......doesn't matter what race, gender or nationality you are.

FFS a right wing, white, female, radio host from Boston was recently stopped for drink driving. Struggle ensued when the cops tried to slap the cuffs on her due to lack of cooperation. She ended up requiring about 20 stitches for an injury sustained in the kerfufle......guess how much sympathy people have for her?

If you guessed zero....you'd be bang on the money (read the comments attached to the article)

http://www.bostonherald.com/comments/1064874536

This TX case absolutely NOTHING to do with race. A lot of people commenting seem to have little understanding of US law......you MUST obey a direct order from a police officer or face the possibility of arrest. Whether he orders you to put out your cigarette or to get out of your car....failure to comply can (and probably will) lead to your arrest

CNN ran an article, you do not have to put a cigarette out, he has no right to do that, and yes you can record. Also the police officer should have made efforts to calm the situation.

CSF · 24-07-2015 03:19AM

whitey1 wrote: »

Having lived in the States for 21+ years, and as someone who drives 35k miles per year for work, the #1 rule when your pulled over by a cop is to be cooperative and polite......doesn't matter what race, gender or nationality you are.

FFS a right wing, white, female, radio host from Boston was recently stopped for drink driving. Struggle ensued when the cops tried to slap the cuffs on her due to lack of cooperation. She ended up requiring about 20 stitches for an injury sustained in the kerfufle......guess how much sympathy people have for her?

If you guessed zero....you'd be bang on the money (read the comments attached to the article)

http://www.bostonherald.com/comments/1064874536

This TX case absolutely NOTHING to do with race. A lot of people commenting seem to have little understanding of US law......you MUST obey a direct order from a police officer or face the possibility of arrest. Whether he orders you to put out your cigarette or to get out of your car....failure to comply can (and probably will) lead to your arrest

Nope. You're wrong. What you believe to be the law is not the same as what actually is the law. You can keep victim blaming all you want, you're completely factually wrong.

whitey1 · 24-07-2015 03:31AM

CSF wrote: »

Nope. You're wrong. What you believe to be the law is not the same as what actually is the law. You can keep victim blaming all you want, you're completely factually wrong.

If the cop believes that by smoking, you are posing a threat or interfering with them conducting their lawful business, they absolutely can order you to stop smoking in your car.

CSF · 24-07-2015 03:41AM

whitey1 wrote: »

If the cop believes that by smoking, you are posing a threat or interfering with them conducting their lawful business, they absolutely can order you to stop smoking in your car.

Why do you continue to post this when it has been established numerous times in the thread that this is not the case. The relevant authorities have established that the woman should never even have been arrested thanks to the video footage, why are you so insistent on pissing on the poor woman's memory?

InTheTrees · 24-07-2015 04:13AM

whitey1 wrote: »

Having lived in the States for 21+ years,

A lot of people commenting seem to have little understanding of US law......you MUST obey a direct order from a police officer or face the possibility of arrest. Whether he orders you to put out your cigarette or to get out of your car....failure to comply can (and probably will) lead to your arrest

21+ years?

Me too.

You must have read the constitution then.

The police don't have unlimited power. Therefore you don't have do everything they say.

InTheTrees · 24-07-2015 04:19AM

whitey1 wrote: »

If the cop believes that by smoking, you are posing a threat or interfering with them conducting their lawful business, they absolutely can order you to stop smoking in your car.

No.

Billy86 · 24-07-2015 05:07AM

whitey1 wrote: »

Having lived in the States for 21+ years, and as someone who drives 35k miles per year for work, the #1 rule when your pulled over by a cop is to be cooperative and polite......doesn't matter what race, gender or nationality you are.

FFS a right wing, white, female, radio host from Boston was recently stopped for drink driving. Struggle ensued when the cops tried to slap the cuffs on her due to lack of cooperation. She ended up requiring about 20 stitches for an injury sustained in the kerfufle......guess how much sympathy people have for her?

Sandra Bland was not drunk driving or anything of the sort though, so it's not a good comparison. Bland also didn't seem uncooperative until the officer starting making demands that he had no legal right to (put out your cigarette) and breaking the law (demanding she get out of the car, then forcing her to). If you're happy to stand for that nonsense that is your own decision, but it doesn't mean others have to... as the law says.

This TX case absolutely NOTHING to do with race. A lot of people commenting seem to have little understanding of US law......you MUST obey a direct order from a police officer or face the possibility of arrest. Whether he orders you to put out your cigarette or to get out of your car....failure to comply can (and probably will) lead to your arrest

What if the police officer demanded you pull your pants down and begin masturbating in public? Or for a woman to take her top off? By your understanding, the police officer demands it so you must do it.

But the law disagrees.

Billy86 · 24-07-2015 05:09AM

whitey1 wrote: »

If the cop believes that by smoking, you are posing a threat or interfering with them conducting their lawful business, they absolutely can order you to stop smoking in your car.

And if he believes that by wearing pants, you are concealing weapons underneath? And if he believe's that you are actually a eunuch, and that thing between your legs is a gun? So he demands you masturbate until ejaculation to prove it is indeed just your penis?

By your definition, better whip it out and get jerking. Thankfully, again, the law disagrees.

frostyjacks · 24-07-2015 06:46AM

She should have just done what she was told, instead of getting all uppity.

RDM_83 again · 24-07-2015 07:11AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

She should have just done what she was told, instead of getting all uppity.

"uppity" is an extremely bad choice of word =-O

SpaceTime · 24-07-2015 07:34AM

The problem over there is its sleep walking into being a police state.

The way the cops appear to behave isn't how police normally behave in a liberal democracy. It's all about issuing orders and expecting absolute and unquestioning compliance as if an innocent person interacting with them is suddenly some kind of prisoner in a prison camp of some sort.

That kind of behaviour is like something you'd expect in some crackpot dictatorship, not a country that claims it's the "land of the free".

Couple that level of brutality to the general sense that African Americans have of being under siege and you've got a major, major problem.

Also bear in mind that despite all the progress, the U.S. in many parts is only a few decades away from segregation and attitudes accurately portrayed in movies like "The Help" and you'll start to get a sense of it.

It's pretty obvious that black people in the U.S. feel about as comfortable with law enforcement as an Irish speaking nationalist Catholic would have felt about the RUC in the 1970s and 80s.

She had every right to be annoyed, to be irritated and to question his actions. She also has every right to smoke in her car.

If you start having a situation where being grumpy or questioning authority gets you dragged out of your car, cuffed and thrown on the ground and then jailed over what started out over a minor traffic offence, you're no longer living in a liberal democracy.

If we saw this kind of police unreasonableness in China we'd be looking in horror at the police state in action but, in the U.S. this Robocop culture is constantly being accepted and excused by officialdom.

These weird incidents keep happening, over and over which would indicate very little evidence of serious changes being made.

It needs to be dialled down, toned down and the African American community in particular need to have converns addressed and structural changes made, so they can trust the police.

The current situation is a recipe for major social problems.

volchitsa · 24-07-2015 07:38AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

"uppity" is an extremely bad choice of word =-O

I think (hope) the poster was being sarcastic.

InTheTrees · 24-07-2015 08:25AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

These weird incidents keep happening, over and over which would indicate very little evidence of serious changes being made.

It needs to be dialled down, toned down and the African American community in particular need to have converns addressed and structural changes made, so they can trust the police.

The current situation is a recipe for major social problems.

Its also important to understand how the police are organised.

Not only is every state independantly policed but every town, every county has its own police with their own budget, hiring, training etcetc.

Its a massive task keeping track of them all. The FBI is the only Federal police force I believe.

SpaceTime · 24-07-2015 08:29AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its also important to understand how the police are organised.

Not only is every state independantly policed but every town, every county has its own police with their own budget, hiring, training etcetc.

Its a massive task keeping track of them all. The FBI is the only Federal police force I believe.

The training and protocols need to be set centrally.

There's just too much craziness going on and really it does need to be resolved and that will take effort.

Look up north here and they basically had to completely abolish and recreate the police service almost from scratch to deal with the legacy.

I think similar is going to be ultimately needed in the U.S. You can't really have a functioning society with that level of lack of ownership of public services by a large % of society.

You effectively need a bill of rights and obligations that's applicable to everyone from the FBI to the local police department in some remote town.

The structures and local management don't need to go away. In theory, they should actually be a good thing.

The problem is lack of standards and lack of training when it comes to issues of human rights, dignity and even established constitutional rights by the looks of it.

An independent federal police oversight agency that could effectively bring prosecutions against rogue police officers and management would also be useful.

Something like GSOC crossed with the FBI.

Manic Moran · 24-07-2015 08:33AM

I have taken a bit of a look-around as to the legality of the cigarette extinguishing request followed by the order to exit the vehicle, and, frankly, there are multiple opinions depending on which site you are looking at. Unfortunately, everything is a matter of interpretation and inferrence because there has never been, according to a search of the caselaw (all caselaw is databased in the US and electronically searchable) a decision directly on point. Some people believe it's a lawful instruction, some believe it's not, and only a judge, who hasn't yet been asked in a court of law, can say which. Some sources even provide experts providing both perspectives, such as this LA times article:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sandra-bland-arrest-experts-20150722-story.html#page=1

Wompa1 wrote: »

May be a little different for black people. Chris Rock went through a few months of posting on Instagram each time he got pulled over.

He also created a helpful instructional video entitled "How to not get your ass kicked by the police"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR465HoCWFQ

With all the various high-profile incidents that have been in the news recently, it strikes me that had the various persons been following Chris Rock's video instructions, they would not be dead now. And they're not exactly tips which are onerous or unfair.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Totally lost me on this.

So you think its best to just cave in to police abuse? Give in to bullies?

She was a civil rights activist so she knew her constitutional rights.

Choose your battles. As the guy in the LA Times link says:
People don't appreciate the danger of escalating a situation with law enforcement,” said Charles “Sid” Heal, a former L.A. County sheriff's commander and force expert. “If a person believes they have a case, wait until after jail and sue. You don't want to escalate the situation to the point the officer feels threatened.

Common sense, frankly, says that being argumentative or combative onsite is not going to end well, no matter how right you may be. Your constitutional rights include redress in a court of law.

SpaceTime · 24-07-2015 08:38AM

The issue is you shouldn't be terrified to "escalate" verbally with a police officer.

They've constructed a situation where the police are like prison guards in a concentration camp going around armed to the teeth with a constantly threatening vibe.

The whole system needs to be "deescalated" as it's become totally dysfunctional to the point that it's actually dangerous.

The community policing, chilled out "we are YOUR police service" needs to come back. It exists in some parts of the U.S. and it was definitely more prevalent in the past too (albeit with ethnic tensions in the background).

Taking a leaf out of other English speaking countries' books wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea in this case though.

More The Thin Blue Line and less Robocop would be helpful!

whitey1 · 24-07-2015 10:03AM

CSF wrote: »

Why do you continue to post this when it has been established numerous times in the thread that this is not the case. The relevant authorities have established that the woman should never even have been arrested thanks to the video footage, why are you so insistent on pissing on the poor woman's memory?

Having listened to 3 hours of Joe Madison and Rev Al on the "Urban" (ie black) Sirius Channel yesterday several experts including at least one black law professor said that it was a LEGAL order that should have been obeyed.

Do you really think the NY Times or CNN's interpretation of the law will favor the law enforcement official in this case?

Ash.J.Williams · 24-07-2015 10:45AM

seamus wrote: »

As an Irish man in a foreign country dealing with foreign cops, of course you would. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

In Ireland if a Garda told you to put out a cigarette and got mouthy with you about it, you'd be incredulous, and you 'd question him. Because you're at home and you're more comfortable at home.

Responding to an asshole by belligerence is not being a dick.

not really as the garda would be in work and i would not be allowed smoke in his workplace.

REXER · 24-07-2015 11:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the way I was in my own interaction with US police (I was drinking on the street and being loud and drunk).

The police were stern, and intimidating, but I just played along with the game of 'yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir' and was warned and sent on my way. I had heard that police over there were not to be messed with, so I just showed respect and gave them no reason to arrest me.

Anytime I see these videos of black Americans being arrested by police, they always seem to be resistant and stroppy and lead to the situation escalating.

If they tell you to put out the cigarette PUT OUT THE CIGARETTE
If they tell you to get out off the car GET OUT OF THE DAMN CAR!

Don't ask "why", don't resist because it's a no-win game with the US police. They should surely have learned this lesson by now.

In a bend over and take it in the arse sort of way?? :eek:

CSF · 24-07-2015 11:18AM

whitey1 wrote: »

Having listened to 3 hours of Joe Madison and Rev Al on the "Urban" (ie black) Sirius Channel yesterday several experts including at least one black law professor said that it was a LEGAL order that should have been obeyed.

Do you really think the NY Times or CNN's interpretation of the law will favor the law enforcement official in this case?

No I think the local authorities coming out and admitting she shouldn't have been arrested is binding though.

CSF · 24-07-2015 11:20AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

She should have just done what she was told, instead of getting all uppity.

Congratulations on victim blaming. A woman is now dead because of a power hungry police officer and your contribution to the thread is how she should have done what she was told when she was in no way compelled to, and accused her of being uppity. Disgusting.

MauraTheThird · 24-07-2015 11:25AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the way I was in my own interaction with US police (I was drinking on the street and being loud and drunk).

The police were stern, and intimidating, but I just played along with the game of 'yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir' and was warned and sent on my way. I had heard that police over there were not to be messed with, so I just showed respect and gave them no reason to arrest me.

Anytime I see these videos of black Americans being arrested by police, they always seem to be resistant and stroppy and lead to the situation escalating.

If they tell you to put out the cigarette PUT OUT THE CIGARETTE
If they tell you to get out off the car GET OUT OF THE DAMN CAR!

Don't ask "why", don't resist because it's a no-win game with the US police. They should surely have learned this lesson by now.

The problem I have with this thought process is where does it stop? What if they ask you to stop drinking water because the bottle could be a weapon? Or to drop your keys in case you'd stab them with them? To take off your clothes because you could be concealing a gun etc etc...

Just because they are cops, does not mean that you have to obey without thought. I understand that they are law enforcers, but they should then be sticking rigidily to the laws, instead of heading off on a power trip.

cnocbui wrote: »

This idea you seem to have that women faced with police aggression should be utterly meek and compliant and obey all orders is actually sick.

CSF wrote: »

The 'she should have done exactly what the police told her and this wouldn't have happened' seems dangerously like the 'she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt' argument. The woman has done nothing illegal in her dealings with the police officer so we shouldn't be discussing what she has done wrong at all, because she hasn't. The police officer has. He has completely overstepped his boundaries as a police officer and now as a result of him doing so unnecessarily, a situation has been created which has led to the death of a young woman. Whether he had any involvement in her death or not, he is responsible. He created the situation that led to her death.

But these 'she should have put the smoke out' people. A woman has died due to a police powertrip at best, police violence at worst, and you're talking about whether it was bad manners not to put a cigarette out. What planet are you people living on?

I have to agree with this completely. By saying she should have done X, Y, Z and all would've be fine, you're pushing the idea of victim blaming and to be honest, it's actually getting exhausting seeing this used everyday. There was no reason for the officier to have continued interrogating her like he did. He stopped her for a menial traffic offence and seemed to decide that he was going to take out whatever issues he had out on her.

He's a law enforcer. What he was doing to Sandra Bland was unlawful. There was no rhyme or reason for him to order her out of her car. And blaming her for not complying with unlawful behaviour is sad.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The issue is you shouldn't be terrified to "escalate" verbally with a police officer.

They've constructed a situation where the police are like prison guards in a concentration camp going around armed to the teeth with a constantly threatening vibe.

The whole system needs to be "deescalated" as it's become totally dysfunctional to the point that it's actually dangerous.

The community policing, chilled out "we are YOUR police service" needs to come back. It exists in some parts of the U.S. and it was definitely more prevalent in the past too (albeit with ethnic tensions in the background).

Taking a leaf out of other English speaking countries' books wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea in this case though.

More The Thin Blue Line and less Robocop would be helpful!

The tensions in America are escalating and social media is playing a huge part in that. Whilst race seems to be a correlatory factor between all the recent big news stories regarding police brutality, it seems to me like anything could set a certain type of cop off.

These types of situations are terrifying when you realise that these are the people that you are supposed to depend on in a crisis, who are supposed to be helping and protecting people. If this is what they could do to a person for a traffic offence, how could you possibly have any faith in the system what so ever?

I'm probably living in an idealised world, but I have never once felt intimidated or afraid by the presence of a Garda here in Ireland. I have always felt the smallest bit safer when I notice one around.

How difficult and scary must it be to be living somewhere where your law enforcers are the ones inflicting fear in you?

jaymcg91 · 24-07-2015 11:29AM

The people advocating total compliance with any police request are absolutely terrifying.

REXER · 24-07-2015 11:39AM

LostinKildare wrote: »

Yes. She was quite controlled given the situation. Apparently he had sped up and come up very close behind her, she thought he was trying to get past her so she moved over into the slow lane to let him by (as you would for police, ambulances, fire engines), then he stops her for not indicating that lane change. Cmon, it is BS. I'd be annoyed too.

I'd say he was tailing her for the out-of-state plate -- one of the first things out of his mouth is "How long have you been in Texas?"

Strangely, I have seen several complaints on Boards over the last number of years of the Garda using similar tactics on the M50 to provoke drivers!

Whats that all about then?

whitey1 · 24-07-2015 11:41AM

I think we can all agree the cop was an a$$hole and a bully.

My question is, was he rascist in his actions?

If a white person, in an identical case scenario refused to extinguish their cigarette and refused to exit the vehicle, what would his reaction have been?

My guess is that a white person would have faced a similar if not identical reaction.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/07/23/sandra-bland-and-the-lawful-order-problem/

SpaceTime · 24-07-2015 11:43AM

REXER wrote: »

Strangely, I have seen several complaints on Boards over the last number of years of the Garda using similar tactics on the M50 to provoke drivers!

Whats that all about then?

At most you get a ticket in the post, I've yet to hear of the Gardai threatening to taser someone or reefing out of a car, cuffing them, throwing them to the ground and injuring them over failing to use an indicator!

If that happened here you can be damn sure there would be GSOC investigations, law suits and people losing their badges at the very least.

If it were going on on a regular basis (which seems to be the case in the US) I doubt the Government would be in office for very long.

The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

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