Multiple Public / State Cards

BowWow · 17-07-2015 9:04pm #1

Not too sure where to post this - mods please move if some other forum more suitable.

Ok, got a new Driving Licence this week. I now have a Driving Licence card, a Public Services Card(with Chip), a European Health Insurance Card, a Drug Payment Scheme card, not to mention my "private" banking cards etc. I will shortly have the opportunity to add a new Passport card to these.

Surely some of these could be amalgamated? The PSC, EHIC and DPScard all show my PPS number, so start there. Could the addition of the European Health Insurance logo to the PSC not cover that? The addition of the DSP information to the PSC chip would cover that? The Licence could be placed on the reverse, but that is probably rocket science. I'd actually pay for a combined card to cut down on what I have to carry.

Thoughts?

Sam Russell · 17-07-2015 10:20pm

What about the Medical Card, The Social Welfare Identity card?

BowWow · 17-07-2015 10:49pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What about the Medical Card, The Social Welfare Identity card?

Think the Public Services Card is replacing the Social Welfare ID card.

Someone with a Medical Card would not usually have a Drug Payment Scheme card, but no reason the medical card details couldn't be encoded on to the PSC.

GerardKeating · 18-07-2015 12:24am

BowWow wrote: »

Think the Public Services Card is replacing the Social Welfare ID card.

Someone with a Medical Card would not usually have a Drug Payment Scheme card, but no reason the medical card details couldn't be encoded on to the PSC.

You would/should have both if it is a GP visit only card.

Irish Steve · 21-07-2015 9:51am

I think it's called an identity card, but shore, we can't be havin that craiq, think about all the state jobs that would no longer be justified, and how it would solve so many other issues that we keep hearing about. Tisn't the oirish way of doin things

Carawaystick · 21-07-2015 2:46pm

Different cards serve different purposes, especially those which are means tested.

If a medical card was electronically coded onto a chip on a smart card, then every gp in the gms would now have to get a reader to read the card. Same for a gp visit card etc.
They'd give out, and then would get subsidised from taxation for some or all of the cost of getting an (overpriced) reader

There are also data protection issues, with one card for multiple uses.
An ehic for example only is used to show the bearer is a resident of Ireland, and the ppsn of the bearer. The foreign healthcare provider does not need to anything else about the patient.

BowWow · 21-07-2015 3:28pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

An ehic for example only is used to show the bearer is a resident of Ireland, and the ppsn of the bearer. The foreign healthcare provider does not need to anything else about the patient.

My Public Services Card actually shows my PPS number - the addition of an EHIC "logo" would eliminate the need for a separate EHIC.

BowWow · 21-07-2015 3:30pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

If a medical card was electronically coded onto a chip on a smart card, then every gp in the gms would now have to get a reader to read the card. Same for a gp visit card etc. They'd give out, and then would get subsidised from taxation for some or all of the cost of getting an (overpriced) reader.

Cant they already tell if a Medical card is valid or not by looking it up online?

BowWow · 21-07-2015 3:34pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

There are also data protection issues, with one card for multiple uses.

I'm ok with this - would be happy to have one state card with all my info on it. I'd gladly accept an Identity Card with all my info encoded that was also a Passport Card.

Carawaystick · 21-07-2015 4:38pm

BowWow wrote: »

I'm ok with this - would be happy to have one state card with all my info on it. I'd gladly accept an Identity Card with all my info encoded that was also a Passport Card.

But not everyone is so blase about their private information, which is why we have data protection laws.

A passport card lasts 5 years and is only valid if you have a paper passport, which is considerably bigger than any of the existing cards and seems to be another part of the same issue.

A passport card also costs money, which may be an issue if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week

Sam Russell · 21-07-2015 6:21pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

But not everyone is so blase about their private information, which is why we have data protection laws.

A passport card lasts 5 years and is only valid if you have a paper passport, which is considerably bigger than any of the existing cards and seems to be another part of the same issue.

A passport card also costs money, which may be an issue if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week

Surely if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week - why would you need a passport card?

The passport card should be an identity card as in most of Europe, and the driving licence should double as a passport/identity card.

One social welfare card should do the rest.

Carawaystick · 22-07-2015 11:27am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week - why would you need a passport card?

To leave Ireland and seek work elsewhere.

BowWow brought up having it all in a passport card.

bk · 22-07-2015 11:58am

I've written about this before. We absolutely should have a National ID card like pretty much every other mainland European Country. The card should have the following on it:

- Photo
- Name
- Date of Birth
- Nationality
- PPS
- Height
- Eye Colour

As standard on most Eureopean national ID cards.

It should also then have encoded on the chip the following:

- Your Address
- Free Travel Pass entitlement (Leap compatible)
- Medical Card entitlement
- Drug Payment Scheme Entitlement
- European Health Insurance Card Entitlement
- GNIB ID and stamp for foreign visitors.

This card could then be used for:

- Age verification (bars, alcohol sales, etc.)
- Travel in Europe (no need for the stupid passport card).
- ID verification for picking up packages at An Post.
- ID verification at banks, etc.
- ID verification for various social welfare services
- Entitlement verification for various medical services.
- ID verification for GNIB
- Free travel on public transport

It should also have electronic ID on it, so it can be used online for online social services and signing up to bank accounts, online etc.

You could also potentially put the driving licenses details on the bank of it too.

This should all be managed by a single central authority.

BowWow · 22-07-2015 12:12pm

bk wrote: »

I've written about this before. We absolutely should have a National ID card like pretty much every other mainland European Country. The card should have the following on it:

- Photo
- Name
- Date of Birth
- Nationality
- PPS
- Height
- Eye Colour

As standard on most Eureopean national ID cards.

It should also then have encoded on the chip the following:

- Your Address
- Free Travel Pass entitlement (Leap compatible)
- Medical Card entitlement
- Drug Payment Scheme Entitlement
- European Health Insurance Card Entitlement
- GNIB ID and stamp for foreign visitors.

This card could then be used for:

- Age verification (bars, alcohol sales, etc.)
- Travel in Europe (no need for the stupid passport card).
- ID verification for picking up packages at An Post.
- ID verification at banks, etc.
- ID verification for various social welfare services
- Entitlement verification for various medical services.
- ID verification for GNIB
- Free travel on public transport

It should also have electronic ID on it, so it can be used online for online social services and signing up to bank accounts, online etc.

You could also potentially put the driving licenses details on the bank of it too.

This should all be managed by a single central authority.

Would be perfect in my opinion, but I can see the Tinfoil hat brigade go purple......

Carawaystick · 22-07-2015 12:25pm

Who would pay for a new card when one of the details changes?
Address, nationality, height etc

bk · 22-07-2015 1:25pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Who would pay for a new card when one of the details changes?
Address, nationality, height etc

I don't know, how has mainland Europe handled this for the past 50 years?

- Height? :eek: Haha, your height doesn't change that frequently. Usually the height only applies to adult ID cards.

- Nationality? Again doesn't change that frequently. Even for a European to get Irish nationality is a long and expensive process (about €1000), so that would be a very minor issue.

- Address, that is obviously a more frequent and likely occurrence. In most European countries, you are required to visit the new local council hall and they usually update it for free. Usually they just put a sticker with the new address on the card, until it is time to replace the card.

Obviously if we were implementing a new system from scratch we could do better and use modern technology. If the card included electronic id, then you could simply update your address online for free. It wouldn't change it on the card, but at least your new address would be on the official database. When you eventually get issued a new card, it would then have the new address.

Think of it as a virtual version of the European stickers

bk · 22-07-2015 4:02pm

Interesting to note that the passport card has been delayed to September from it's original date of July!

Avada · 22-07-2015 4:11pm

bk wrote: »

Interesting to note that the passport card has been delayed to September from it's original date of July!

It never made sense to implement the card during peak time for the pp office imo. Although I think the delay is due to a problem with the manufacturer.

As an aside, just going back to an earlier point you made re address chsnges on ID cards. Stickers are definitely not the way forward, once they're stuck on they block vital security features (UV, etc), making the card less secure.

Carawaystick · 22-07-2015 4:42pm

bk wrote: »

I don't know, how has mainland Europe handled this for the past 50 years?

It's your suggestion to solve the issue of having a plethora of public body issued cards.

bk wrote: »

- Height? :eek: Haha, your height doesn't change that frequently. Usually the height only applies to adult ID cards.

Height increases until early 20's and then falls again until death.
If you want it recorded on an ID card you should be recording it with some precision, and a person shrinks 4cm on average over their life. Of the pieces of data you want recorded, this one will change and the person will have no choice with the change.

bk wrote: »

- Nationality? Again doesn't change that frequently. Even for a European to get Irish nationality is a long and expensive process (about €1000), so that would be a very minor issue.

A person born in Norn Iron can change their nationality at the drop of a hat.

bk wrote: »

- Address, that is obviously a more frequent and likely occurrence. In most European countries, you are required to visit the new local council hall and they usually update it for free. Usually they just put a sticker with the new address on the card, until it is time to replace the card.

Apart from Big Phil Hogan abolishing most local councils here, I couldn't see this being implemented. Also how would you prove your new address to the local council?

bk · 22-07-2015 5:08pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's your suggestion to solve the issue of having a plethora of public body issued cards.

The point I was making is that all these pieces of information are standard on national ID cards through out Europe, as used by 300 million + people for the past 50 years. So clearly they aren't major, insurmountable issues!

Carawaystick wrote: »

Height increases until early 20's and then falls again until death.
If you want it recorded on an ID card you should be recording it with some precision, and a person shrinks 4cm on average over their life. Of the pieces of data you want recorded, this one will change and the person will have no choice with the change.

Then only make it a requirement for people 25 or over.

For instance, in Germany, which has this field on their card, national ID cards are only required by people 16 and older. They most be replaced every 6 years until 24, when they then last 10 years.

The reality is people will have done their vast majority of growth by 16. No one is actually holding a tape measure to them to double check if it is a few cm's off!!! It is usually used as a quick at a glance way to check that the picture on the card hasn't been modified. It is an old fashioned form of biometric ID.

The chip on the card also contains biometric data in the form of a finger print and 3D picture. So obviously they would be used in more serious circumstances.

Non of this is rocket science:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card

Carawaystick wrote: »

A person born in Norn Iron can change their nationality at the drop of a hat.

Then they pay for a new card, no different then if they want to change the nationality on their passport.

The German national ID card cost €28, hardly earth shattering cost.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Apart from Big Phil Hogan abolishing most local councils here, I couldn't see this being implemented. Also how would you prove your new address to the local council?

I'm not suggesting we should. I'd suggest we would have the crowd who do the driving licenses or some similar setup like that.

Also as I mentioned, you could do it online with the electronic signature on the chip on the card. Really not so hard.

As for proving your new address? Well how do we do it today for the driving license, passport, etc?

The truth is we don't and it is sort of a chicken and egg problem. Short of sending the police to call on you randomly there is no way to check, even today. You just have to trust people are being honest.

You can sort of do it by ensuring that all official government correspondence, tax forms, tax rebates, various social welfare payments, etc. are sent to the registered address. If the person hasn't registered their address truthfully, then they don't end up getting these letters, etc.

The current address, is a handy piece of information, which would in turn be then used for opening new bank accounts, mobile phone contracts, etc. But there would still be no 100% guarantee, just as there isn't today.

Avada · 22-07-2015 5:10pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Apart from Big Phil Hogan abolishing most local councils here, I couldn't see this being implemented. Also how would you prove your new address to the local council?

Maybe if you were to update it online, they send you a verification code by post, then you enter it online once you've received it. That could work.

Also, once you were to update that address, it could update with all State agencies, send you a new logbook for your car, new drivers licence, etc, all automatically.

Carawaystick · 22-07-2015 6:14pm

I think the solutions to the op having to carry several cards will cost considerably more than the present solution
I don't think its a good use of scarce resources

BowWow · 22-07-2015 6:20pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think the solutions to the op having to carry several cards will cost considerably more than the present solution
I don't think its a good use of scarce resources

I have -
1. Public Services Card - zero cost to me.
2. European Health Insurance Card - zero cost to me.
3. Drug Payment Scheme Card - zero cost to me.

If these three were rolled together, there would have to be a cost saving to the state.

bk · 22-07-2015 6:41pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think the solutions to the op having to carry several cards will cost considerably more than the present solution
I don't think its a good use of scarce resources

The point is we currently have multiple different organisations, all with a large staff, all creating multiple similar cards, that basically do the same thing, identify you and your "entitlements":

Department of Foreign Affairs:
- Passport
- Passport Card

Department of Health
- Medical Card
- Drug Payment Scheme card
- European Health Insurance Card

Department of Social Welfare:
- Social Welfare Card
- Free Travel Pass

Department of Transport:
- Driving License
- Leap Card
- Dublin/Cork/Limerick Bike Scheme Card

Department of Justice:
- Age Card
- GNIB

Clearly there is an incredible degree of waste and unnecessary overlap there. Instead we should move all these to a single organisation, responsible for a persons identity and entitlements, with one database and one card that does all of the above.

There would definitely be significant cost and efficiency savings there.

Having a national ID card with an electronic signature would also greatly help the various departments to perform e-services online (pay tax, motor tax, etc.) and would also greatly help to reduce fraud.

BowWow · 22-07-2015 7:02pm

1. The Italian Health Insurance Card doubles as a EHIC

source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_health_insurance_card

2. Drug Payment Scheme Card. I'm actually not sure why these are even issued. I'm on my third or fourth. When I got the first lot, 4 of them for all the family, we presented them to our local Pharmacy. They logged them on their system. The actual cards have not had to be presented to anybody since. The info could have been in a letter. On the few occasions we have bought Prescription Drugs in a different Pharmacy we have paid for them and claimed a refund if over the monthly amount.

Sam Russell · 22-07-2015 7:57pm

There is also the NI travel card issued by NI Translink on instructions from D of SP.

So that is another card.

Carawaystick · 23-07-2015 11:13am

bk wrote: »

The point is we currently have multiple different organisations, all with a large staff, all creating multiple similar cards, that basically do the same thing, identify you and your "entitlements":

Department of Foreign Affairs:
- Passport
- Passport Card

Department of Health
- Medical Card
- Drug Payment Scheme card
- European Health Insurance Card

Department of Social Welfare:
- Social Welfare Card
- Free Travel Pass

Department of Transport:
- Driving License
- Leap Card
- Dublin/Cork/Limerick Bike Scheme Card

Department of Justice:
- Age Card
- GNIB

Clearly there is an incredible degree of waste and unnecessary overlap there. Instead we should move all these to a single organisation, responsible for a persons identity and entitlements, with one database and one card that does all of the above.

There would definitely be significant cost and efficiency savings there.

Having a national ID card with an electronic signature would also greatly help the various departments to perform e-services online (pay tax, motor tax, etc.) and would also greatly help to reduce fraud.

Passport needs to have pages to store immigration stamps, showing your past travel history, if you've left the EEA.

Driving license shows medical conditions such as poor eyesight, poor hearing etc

An age card shows you are over 18. THere is no need for a bouncer to know where you've been or if you have any medical condition, to allow you into a pub. SO a simple age card is the best way from a privacy point of view.

A leap card doesn't identify you. Unless you choose to register it.

bk · 23-07-2015 6:28pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Passport needs to have pages to store immigration stamps, showing your past travel history, if you've left the EEA.

I wasn't suggesting we get rid of full size passports, but the passport card is absolutely unnecessary.

BTW the pages of a passport aren't actually to show your travel history. Only to show at what point you entered and left the country in question of visa purposes.

The fact that a passport can show your travel history is actually a flaw with passports and a threat to a persons privacy. For instance various middle eastern countries denying you entry because you previously visited Israel.

The whole concept of a large physical passport with entry/exit stamps is completely unnecessary in our modern world of databases. I expect we will eventually see the large format passport be replaced by national ID and passport cards.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Driving license shows medical conditions such as poor eyesight, poor hearing etc

And that information, plus vehicle types, could also be included on the back of a national ID card.

Alternatively that data can be encoded in the chip on the card and read by Garda using readers.

Carawaystick wrote: »

An age card shows you are over 18. THere is no need for a bouncer to know where you've been or if you have any medical condition, to allow you into a pub. SO a simple age card is the best way from a privacy point of view.

Which is why all that data could be encoded on the chip on the card and only read by a Garda with the correct reader and permissions.

This would actually be a significant improvement in privacy.

Carawaystick wrote: »

A leap card doesn't identify you. Unless you choose to register it.

Leap is more of a platform then just a card. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the anonymous leap cards, but if a leap chip was integrated into a national ID card, people could optionally use it and it would completely replace the registered ID version of the leap card (used by monthly and annual ticket holders, Free travel pass holders, children, students and personalised cards). Thus making the production and administration of these types of duplicate cards unnecessary.

You seem to be missing the overall point, our modern world is completely powered by databases. All these cards are basically doing exactly the same thing *, they are just carrying a unique ID that ties you to an entry in a database.

The fact that we have 12 different databases and 12 different cards all doing basically exactly the same thing just shows horrible government inefficiency.

There should be one department in charge of a persons ID and their entitlements, with one database and one card linking you to that database.

* Leap is the one exception as it actually stores money and tickets on the card.

The same ridiculous situation exists in the private sector, where you have dozens of cards in your pocket (credit card, ATM/Debit Card, Tesco card, Starbucks card, security door RFID, card, etc.) are all doing basically the same thing, carrying a unique ID, which ties your identity to their database.

The private sector will likely resolve that by moving everything to your smartphone/smartwatch, I'm sure the government will be slow to follow, but likely will eventually too.

Sam Russell · 23-07-2015 6:34pm

bk wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting we get rid of full size passports, but the passport card is absolutely unnecessary.

BTW the pages of a passport aren't actually to show your travel history. Only to show at what point you entered and left the country in question of visa purposes.

The fact that a passport can show your travel history is actually a flaw with passports and a threat to a persons privacy. For instance various middle eastern countries denying you entry because you previously visited Israel.

The whole concept of a large physical passport with entry/exit stamps is completely unnecessary in our modern world of databases. I expect we will eventually see the large format passport be replaced by national ID and passport cards.

And that information, plus vehicle types, could also be included on the back of a national ID card.

Alternatively that data can be encoded in the chip on the card and read by Garda using readers.

Which is why all that data could be encoded on the chip on the card and only read by a Garda with the correct reader and permissions.

This would actually be a significant improvement in privacy.

Leap is more of a platform then just a card. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the anonymous leap cards, but if a leap chip was integrated into a national ID card, people could optionally use it and it would completely replace the registered ID version of the leap card (used by monthly and annual ticket holders, Free travel pass holders, children, students and personalised cards). Thus making the production and administration of these types of duplicate cards unnecessary.

You seem to be missing the overall point, our modern world is completely powered by databases. All these cards are basically doing exactly the same thing *, they are just carrying a unique ID that ties you to an entry in a database.

The fact that we have 12 different databases and 12 different cards all doing basically exactly the same thing just shows horrible government inefficiency.

There should be one department in charge of a persons ID and their entitlements, with one database and one card linking you to that database.

* Leap is the one exception as it actually stores money and tickets on the card.

The same ridiculous situation exists in the private sector, where you have dozens of cards in your pocket (credit card, ATM/Debit Card, Tesco card, Starbucks card, security door RFID, card, etc.) are all doing basically the same thing, carrying a unique ID, which ties your identity to their database.

The private sector will likely resolve that by moving everything to your smartphone/smartwatch, I'm sure the government will be slow to follow, but likely will eventually too.

And then you lose the card, or some ***** steals it along with your money in your wallet.:mad:

Avada · 23-07-2015 6:43pm

bk wrote: »

The fact that a passport can show your travel history is actually a flaw with passports and a threat to a persons privacy. For instance various middle eastern countries denying you entry because you previously visited Israel.

The whole concept of a large physical passport with entry/exit stamps is completely unnecessary in our modern world of databases. I expect we will eventually see the large format passport be replaced by national ID and passport cards.

And that information, plus vehicle types, could also be included on the back of a national ID card.

Alternatively that data can be encoded in the chip on the card and read by Garda using readers.

Which is why all that data could be encoded on the chip on the card and only read by a Garda with the correct reader and permissions.

This would actually be a significant improvement in privacy.

Its a necessary evil from an immigration point of view to be able to see someones travel history, that won't be going anywhere for a long time imo.

bk · 23-07-2015 8:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

And then you lose the card, or some ***** steals it along with your money in your wallet.:mad:

No difference with losing your wallet today and losing 12 cards! In fact easier to get one integrated card cancelled and replaced then 12!

Also putting all cards on your smartphone would improve security and privacy.

A thief would have no access to your locked phone and you could call up all your details on a separate device using your password almost instantly. Smartphones/watches really are the future of carrying ID.

Avada wrote: »

Its a necessary evil from an immigration point of view to be able to see someones travel history, that won't be going anywhere for a long time imo.

Actually it really isn't used like this by emigration. There is nothing stopping someone ordering a new passport after every trip and thus clearing their travel history if they have something nefarious in mind. Also it is relatively easy to forge or modify the visa pages of a passport.

Emigration handles this with agreements between the EU, US and other countries emigration departments to share their databases of travel data. They really don't rely on your passport anymore.

It is only a matter of time before they do away with it.

BowWow · 05-08-2015 10:57am

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0805/719254-health-identifiers/

Notwithstanding the fact that I (like everyone else) have an unique PPS number, I'm getting another number and probably a plastic card to go with it..........

Colm R · 05-08-2015 12:42pm

BowWow wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0805/719254-health-identifiers/

Notwithstanding the fact that I (like everyone else) have an unique PPS number, I'm getting another number and probably a plastic card to go with it..........

Yeah its disappointing that its not using PPS. Personally, I like the idea of a single card for all your interactions with the state, from Revenue, to Health and Social Welfare to being arrested by the cops.

In a perfect world, there should be an online website, lets call it ireland.gov.ie, whereby you can see all your interactions with the state. So for example, if you go to a GP, and you have free GP care, the GP should be able to read the card. But all the GP should be able to learn from the card is that you do or do not have free GP care - nothing else on the card should be readable to the GP.

Likewise, if a Garda issues you with penalty points, the Garda should do this on the card, but should not be able to learn other information such as tax credits or social welfare status and so on.

In fact I would go further again. Say if one is to apply for a job that requires a background check, such as a childcare worker - the prospective employer should be able to request access to your criminal background. The prospective employee could then approve this on the website.

Then, the prospective employer would be given information only that is relevant to them. Say for example, a person has been found guilty of two crimes in the past (a. Child pornography and b. speeding offenses). In this case, a creche owner would only see relevant offenses such as child pornography but not speeding offenses.

There is no hope in hell of this being implemented because it would frighten the hell out of people. This despite the fact that it can be more secure and traceable than the current paper based system.

As long as I, the citizen has access to my information that is held about me, but also be able to see who is able to access information about me and what they have been provided, then as far as I am concerned it is more transparent than anything else.

If a GP stored your health information in such a manner, and you wanted to change GP, the new GP could request access to your information. Then you could get an email asking you to login and approve or deny such a request.

When a child is born, they appear in the website of the parent until the child turns 18, when they get their own access. When a child changes school, the principal requests access to that childs records, and the parent approves it.

When you are convicted of a crime but later found innocent of this crime you can see confirmation that this is removed from your record.

When you start a new job, your employer requests a tax certificate for your payroll - the new employee simply approves it. No need for paper based P45 of for a new employer to know how much you earned in previous job.

When you die - the coroner/hospital declares you dead along with the certificate which has your pps number. No more letters from revenue years later and sobbing stories in the Daily Mail about people in grief upset about letters for their dead parents.

One unique identifier with one card.

One online state portal with high security access and fully transparent to the citizen.

BowWow · 05-10-2015 1:40pm

Passport Card launched today :rolleyes:

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2015/october/minister-flanagan-launches-irish-passport-card/

Irish Steve · 05-10-2015 3:11pm

One online state portal with high security access and fully transparent to the citizen.

Ah now, we can't be havin that, think of all the jobs that would no longer exist in all those over stuffed state and semi organisations, they can't reduce their head count as it is, so this would be the killer for them.

The harsh reality is that the unions would never stand for this sort of integration, and neither would a number of related semi state bodies, as integration on this scale would once and for all expose just how much waste, corruption and fraud goes on, as well as resolving many of the other issues that are regularly highlighted as fundamental failings of the "state" systems, which in a lot of cases are no longer fit for purpose.

I sent an E-mail request to the HSE nearly a week ago, I couldn't send it to the department I want, as they don't publish ANY E-mail addresses, and I'm still waiting for the department concerned to contact me. I had a response to confirm they'd received it, but that's as far as it's gone.

The same situation applies to the OPW, they too don't publish E-mail addresses, so contacting the right department there is a pain!

I've long given up on making contact with state services by phone, as too often, there's no record of the call, so no way to then go back at a later date to remind them about their total lack of response, and that's the real reason we don't have many of these services on line, if it's on line, there's no way for people to avoid being responsible for dealing with the issues raised, it's too easy to pretend that phone calls didn't happen, and there's no record of the transactions, but with E-mail, even more so than with snail mail, there is a very easy and accurate trace of what went on, and that doesn't suit the unions, as it makes it too easy for people and management to keep a much more accurate track of what's being done, and who's doing it, or, as is too often the case, who's NOT doing what they are supposed to.

Won't happen in a long time, too many vested interests, and too few politicians with the courage to take on the unions and sort out the mess. The troika would have done it, and no one could have stopped them, but that was a bridge too far for FF, so they buckled and took whatever was required in order to avoid having to really change the system, which would have made a HUGE difference to the cost of running Ireland Inc. going forward.

BowWow · 20-11-2015 9:21pm

BowWow wrote: »

Drugs Payment Scheme Card. I'm actually not sure why these are even issued. I'm on my third or fourth. When I got the first lot, 4 of them for all the family, we presented them to our local Pharmacy. They logged them on their system. The actual cards have not had to be presented to anybody since. The info could have been in a letter. On the few occasions we have bought Prescription Drugs in a different Pharmacy we have paid for them and claimed a refund if over the monthly amount.

Got a letter this morning with our new Drugs Payment Scheme Cards. These are identical (except for expiry date) to the last ones we got 5 years ago. Brought them to local Pharmacy, he noted expiry date on his system and gave me back the cards. Now put in drawer replacing the 5 year old cards. Surely a letter would have sufficed? A total waste of money!!

plodder · 20-11-2015 11:01pm

BowWow wrote: »

Got a letter this morning with our new Drugs Payment Scheme Cards. These are identical (except for expiry date) to the last ones we got 5 years ago. Brought them to local Pharmacy, he noted expiry date on his system and gave me back the cards. Now put in drawer replacing the 5 year old cards. Surely a letter would have sufficed? A total waste of money!!

I guess the idea was that you could use the card in any pharmacy, but I'm not sure how that worked out. Last time I checked you had to stick to the one outlet. Also, I remember when we got those cards first, we got EHIC cards at the same time. In a family of five, that was ten cards to mind, just for the health service. Fairly ridiculous really.

Multiple Public / State Cards

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