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Multiple Public / State Cards

  • 17-07-2015 9:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    Not too sure where to post this - mods please move if some other forum more suitable.

    Ok, got a new Driving Licence this week. I now have a Driving Licence card, a Public Services Card(with Chip), a European Health Insurance Card, a Drug Payment Scheme card, not to mention my "private" banking cards etc. I will shortly have the opportunity to add a new Passport card to these.

    Surely some of these could be amalgamated? The PSC, EHIC and DPScard all show my PPS number, so start there. Could the addition of the European Health Insurance logo to the PSC not cover that? The addition of the DSP information to the PSC chip would cover that? The Licence could be placed on the reverse, but that is probably rocket science. I'd actually pay for a combined card to cut down on what I have to carry.

    Thoughts?


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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    What about the Medical Card, The Social Welfare Identity card?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    What about the Medical Card, The Social Welfare Identity card?

    Think the Public Services Card is replacing the Social Welfare ID card.

    Someone with a Medical Card would not usually have a Drug Payment Scheme card, but no reason the medical card details couldn't be encoded on to the PSC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,091 ✭✭✭ GerardKeating


    BowWow wrote: »
    Think the Public Services Card is replacing the Social Welfare ID card.

    Someone with a Medical Card would not usually have a Drug Payment Scheme card, but no reason the medical card details couldn't be encoded on to the PSC.

    You would/should have both if it is a GP visit only card.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve


    I think it's called an identity card, but shore, we can't be havin that craiq, think about all the state jobs that would no longer be justified, and how it would solve so many other issues that we keep hearing about. Tisn't the oirish way of doin things

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Different cards serve different purposes, especially those which are means tested.

    If a medical card was electronically coded onto a chip on a smart card, then every gp in the gms would now have to get a reader to read the card. Same for a gp visit card etc.
    They'd give out, and then would get subsidised from taxation for some or all of the cost of getting an (overpriced) reader

    There are also data protection issues, with one card for multiple uses.
    An ehic for example only is used to show the bearer is a resident of Ireland, and the ppsn of the bearer. The foreign healthcare provider does not need to anything else about the patient.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    An ehic for example only is used to show the bearer is a resident of Ireland, and the ppsn of the bearer. The foreign healthcare provider does not need to anything else about the patient.

    My Public Services Card actually shows my PPS number - the addition of an EHIC "logo" would eliminate the need for a separate EHIC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    If a medical card was electronically coded onto a chip on a smart card, then every gp in the gms would now have to get a reader to read the card. Same for a gp visit card etc. They'd give out, and then would get subsidised from taxation for some or all of the cost of getting an (overpriced) reader.

    Cant they already tell if a Medical card is valid or not by looking it up online?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    There are also data protection issues, with one card for multiple uses.

    I'm ok with this - would be happy to have one state card with all my info on it. I'd gladly accept an Identity Card with all my info encoded that was also a Passport Card.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    BowWow wrote: »
    I'm ok with this - would be happy to have one state card with all my info on it. I'd gladly accept an Identity Card with all my info encoded that was also a Passport Card.

    But not everyone is so blase about their private information, which is why we have data protection laws.

    A passport card lasts 5 years and is only valid if you have a paper passport, which is considerably bigger than any of the existing cards and seems to be another part of the same issue.

    A passport card also costs money, which may be an issue if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    But not everyone is so blase about their private information, which is why we have data protection laws.

    A passport card lasts 5 years and is only valid if you have a paper passport, which is considerably bigger than any of the existing cards and seems to be another part of the same issue.

    A passport card also costs money, which may be an issue if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week

    Surely if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week - why would you need a passport card?

    The passport card should be an identity card as in most of Europe, and the driving licence should double as a passport/identity card.

    One social welfare card should do the rest.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Surely if you are young and unemployed and getting a hundred euros a week - why would you need a passport card?

    To leave Ireland and seek work elsewhere.

    BowWow brought up having it all in a passport card.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    I've written about this before. We absolutely should have a National ID card like pretty much every other mainland European Country. The card should have the following on it:

    - Photo
    - Name
    - Date of Birth
    - Nationality
    - PPS
    - Height
    - Eye Colour

    As standard on most Eureopean national ID cards.

    It should also then have encoded on the chip the following:

    - Your Address
    - Free Travel Pass entitlement (Leap compatible)
    - Medical Card entitlement
    - Drug Payment Scheme Entitlement
    - European Health Insurance Card Entitlement
    - GNIB ID and stamp for foreign visitors.

    This card could then be used for:

    - Age verification (bars, alcohol sales, etc.)
    - Travel in Europe (no need for the stupid passport card).
    - ID verification for picking up packages at An Post.
    - ID verification at banks, etc.
    - ID verification for various social welfare services
    - Entitlement verification for various medical services.
    - ID verification for GNIB
    - Free travel on public transport

    It should also have electronic ID on it, so it can be used online for online social services and signing up to bank accounts, online etc.

    You could also potentially put the driving licenses details on the bank of it too.

    This should all be managed by a single central authority.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    bk wrote: »
    I've written about this before. We absolutely should have a National ID card like pretty much every other mainland European Country. The card should have the following on it:

    - Photo
    - Name
    - Date of Birth
    - Nationality
    - PPS
    - Height
    - Eye Colour

    As standard on most Eureopean national ID cards.

    It should also then have encoded on the chip the following:

    - Your Address
    - Free Travel Pass entitlement (Leap compatible)
    - Medical Card entitlement
    - Drug Payment Scheme Entitlement
    - European Health Insurance Card Entitlement
    - GNIB ID and stamp for foreign visitors.

    This card could then be used for:

    - Age verification (bars, alcohol sales, etc.)
    - Travel in Europe (no need for the stupid passport card).
    - ID verification for picking up packages at An Post.
    - ID verification at banks, etc.
    - ID verification for various social welfare services
    - Entitlement verification for various medical services.
    - ID verification for GNIB
    - Free travel on public transport

    It should also have electronic ID on it, so it can be used online for online social services and signing up to bank accounts, online etc.

    You could also potentially put the driving licenses details on the bank of it too.

    This should all be managed by a single central authority.

    Would be perfect in my opinion, but I can see the Tinfoil hat brigade go purple......


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Who would pay for a new card when one of the details changes?
    Address, nationality, height etc


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Who would pay for a new card when one of the details changes?
    Address, nationality, height etc

    I don't know, how has mainland Europe handled this for the past 50 years?

    - Height? :eek: Haha, your height doesn't change that frequently. Usually the height only applies to adult ID cards.

    - Nationality? Again doesn't change that frequently. Even for a European to get Irish nationality is a long and expensive process (about €1000), so that would be a very minor issue.

    - Address, that is obviously a more frequent and likely occurrence. In most European countries, you are required to visit the new local council hall and they usually update it for free. Usually they just put a sticker with the new address on the card, until it is time to replace the card.

    Obviously if we were implementing a new system from scratch we could do better and use modern technology. If the card included electronic id, then you could simply update your address online for free. It wouldn't change it on the card, but at least your new address would be on the official database. When you eventually get issued a new card, it would then have the new address.

    Think of it as a virtual version of the European stickers :D


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Interesting to note that the passport card has been delayed to September from it's original date of July!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 Avada


    bk wrote: »
    Interesting to note that the passport card has been delayed to September from it's original date of July!

    It never made sense to implement the card during peak time for the pp office imo. Although I think the delay is due to a problem with the manufacturer.

    As an aside, just going back to an earlier point you made re address chsnges on ID cards. Stickers are definitely not the way forward, once they're stuck on they block vital security features (UV, etc), making the card less secure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    bk wrote: »
    I don't know, how has mainland Europe handled this for the past 50 years?
    It's your suggestion to solve the issue of having a plethora of public body issued cards.
    bk wrote: »
    - Height? :eek: Haha, your height doesn't change that frequently. Usually the height only applies to adult ID cards.
    Height increases until early 20's and then falls again until death.
    If you want it recorded on an ID card you should be recording it with some precision, and a person shrinks 4cm on average over their life. Of the pieces of data you want recorded, this one will change and the person will have no choice with the change.

    bk wrote: »
    - Nationality? Again doesn't change that frequently. Even for a European to get Irish nationality is a long and expensive process (about €1000), so that would be a very minor issue.
    A person born in Norn Iron can change their nationality at the drop of a hat.
    bk wrote: »
    - Address, that is obviously a more frequent and likely occurrence. In most European countries, you are required to visit the new local council hall and they usually update it for free. Usually they just put a sticker with the new address on the card, until it is time to replace the card.
    Apart from Big Phil Hogan abolishing most local councils here, I couldn't see this being implemented. Also how would you prove your new address to the local council?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    It's your suggestion to solve the issue of having a plethora of public body issued cards.

    The point I was making is that all these pieces of information are standard on national ID cards through out Europe, as used by 300 million + people for the past 50 years. So clearly they aren't major, insurmountable issues!
    Height increases until early 20's and then falls again until death.
    If you want it recorded on an ID card you should be recording it with some precision, and a person shrinks 4cm on average over their life. Of the pieces of data you want recorded, this one will change and the person will have no choice with the change.

    Then only make it a requirement for people 25 or over.

    For instance, in Germany, which has this field on their card, national ID cards are only required by people 16 and older. They most be replaced every 6 years until 24, when they then last 10 years.

    The reality is people will have done their vast majority of growth by 16. No one is actually holding a tape measure to them to double check if it is a few cm's off!!! It is usually used as a quick at a glance way to check that the picture on the card hasn't been modified. It is an old fashioned form of biometric ID.

    The chip on the card also contains biometric data in the form of a finger print and 3D picture. So obviously they would be used in more serious circumstances.

    Non of this is rocket science:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card

    A person born in Norn Iron can change their nationality at the drop of a hat.

    Then they pay for a new card, no different then if they want to change the nationality on their passport.

    The German national ID card cost €28, hardly earth shattering cost.

    Apart from Big Phil Hogan abolishing most local councils here, I couldn't see this being implemented. Also how would you prove your new address to the local council?

    I'm not suggesting we should. I'd suggest we would have the crowd who do the driving licenses or some similar setup like that.

    Also as I mentioned, you could do it online with the electronic signature on the chip on the card. Really not so hard.

    As for proving your new address? Well how do we do it today for the driving license, passport, etc?

    The truth is we don't and it is sort of a chicken and egg problem. Short of sending the police to call on you randomly there is no way to check, even today. You just have to trust people are being honest.

    You can sort of do it by ensuring that all official government correspondence, tax forms, tax rebates, various social welfare payments, etc. are sent to the registered address. If the person hasn't registered their address truthfully, then they don't end up getting these letters, etc.

    The current address, is a handy piece of information, which would in turn be then used for opening new bank accounts, mobile phone contracts, etc. But there would still be no 100% guarantee, just as there isn't today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 Avada


    Apart from Big Phil Hogan abolishing most local councils here, I couldn't see this being implemented. Also how would you prove your new address to the local council?

    Maybe if you were to update it online, they send you a verification code by post, then you enter it online once you've received it. That could work.

    Also, once you were to update that address, it could update with all State agencies, send you a new logbook for your car, new drivers licence, etc, all automatically.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    I think the solutions to the op having to carry several cards will cost considerably more than the present solution
    I don't think its a good use of scarce resources


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    I think the solutions to the op having to carry several cards will cost considerably more than the present solution
    I don't think its a good use of scarce resources

    I have -
    1. Public Services Card - zero cost to me.
    2. European Health Insurance Card - zero cost to me.
    3. Drug Payment Scheme Card - zero cost to me.

    If these three were rolled together, there would have to be a cost saving to the state.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    I think the solutions to the op having to carry several cards will cost considerably more than the present solution
    I don't think its a good use of scarce resources

    The point is we currently have multiple different organisations, all with a large staff, all creating multiple similar cards, that basically do the same thing, identify you and your "entitlements":

    Department of Foreign Affairs:
    - Passport
    - Passport Card

    Department of Health
    - Medical Card
    - Drug Payment Scheme card
    - European Health Insurance Card

    Department of Social Welfare:
    - Social Welfare Card
    - Free Travel Pass

    Department of Transport:
    - Driving License
    - Leap Card
    - Dublin/Cork/Limerick Bike Scheme Card

    Department of Justice:
    - Age Card
    - GNIB

    Clearly there is an incredible degree of waste and unnecessary overlap there. Instead we should move all these to a single organisation, responsible for a persons identity and entitlements, with one database and one card that does all of the above.

    There would definitely be significant cost and efficiency savings there.

    Having a national ID card with an electronic signature would also greatly help the various departments to perform e-services online (pay tax, motor tax, etc.) and would also greatly help to reduce fraud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ BowWow


    1. The Italian Health Insurance Card doubles as a EHIC

    source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_health_insurance_card


    2. Drug Payment Scheme Card. I'm actually not sure why these are even issued. I'm on my third or fourth. When I got the first lot, 4 of them for all the family, we presented them to our local Pharmacy. They logged them on their system. The actual cards have not had to be presented to anybody since. The info could have been in a letter. On the few occasions we have bought Prescription Drugs in a different Pharmacy we have paid for them and claimed a refund if over the monthly amount.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    There is also the NI travel card issued by NI Translink on instructions from D of SP.

    So that is another card.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    bk wrote: »
    The point is we currently have multiple different organisations, all with a large staff, all creating multiple similar cards, that basically do the same thing, identify you and your "entitlements":

    Department of Foreign Affairs:
    - Passport
    - Passport Card

    Department of Health
    - Medical Card
    - Drug Payment Scheme card
    - European Health Insurance Card

    Department of Social Welfare:
    - Social Welfare Card
    - Free Travel Pass

    Department of Transport:
    - Driving License
    - Leap Card
    - Dublin/Cork/Limerick Bike Scheme Card

    Department of Justice:
    - Age Card
    - GNIB

    Clearly there is an incredible degree of waste and unnecessary overlap there. Instead we should move all these to a single organisation, responsible for a persons identity and entitlements, with one database and one card that does all of the above.

    There would definitely be significant cost and efficiency savings there.

    Having a national ID card with an electronic signature would also greatly help the various departments to perform e-services online (pay tax, motor tax, etc.) and would also greatly help to reduce fraud.

    Passport needs to have pages to store immigration stamps, showing your past travel history, if you've left the EEA.

    Driving license shows medical conditions such as poor eyesight, poor hearing etc

    An age card shows you are over 18. THere is no need for a bouncer to know where you've been or if you have any medical condition, to allow you into a pub. SO a simple age card is the best way from a privacy point of view.

    A leap card doesn't identify you. Unless you choose to register it.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Passport needs to have pages to store immigration stamps, showing your past travel history, if you've left the EEA.

    I wasn't suggesting we get rid of full size passports, but the passport card is absolutely unnecessary.

    BTW the pages of a passport aren't actually to show your travel history. Only to show at what point you entered and left the country in question of visa purposes.

    The fact that a passport can show your travel history is actually a flaw with passports and a threat to a persons privacy. For instance various middle eastern countries denying you entry because you previously visited Israel.

    The whole concept of a large physical passport with entry/exit stamps is completely unnecessary in our modern world of databases. I expect we will eventually see the large format passport be replaced by national ID and passport cards.
    Driving license shows medical conditions such as poor eyesight, poor hearing etc

    And that information, plus vehicle types, could also be included on the back of a national ID card.

    Alternatively that data can be encoded in the chip on the card and read by Garda using readers.
    An age card shows you are over 18. THere is no need for a bouncer to know where you've been or if you have any medical condition, to allow you into a pub. SO a simple age card is the best way from a privacy point of view.

    Which is why all that data could be encoded on the chip on the card and only read by a Garda with the correct reader and permissions.

    This would actually be a significant improvement in privacy.
    A leap card doesn't identify you. Unless you choose to register it.

    Leap is more of a platform then just a card. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the anonymous leap cards, but if a leap chip was integrated into a national ID card, people could optionally use it and it would completely replace the registered ID version of the leap card (used by monthly and annual ticket holders, Free travel pass holders, children, students and personalised cards). Thus making the production and administration of these types of duplicate cards unnecessary.

    You seem to be missing the overall point, our modern world is completely powered by databases. All these cards are basically doing exactly the same thing *, they are just carrying a unique ID that ties you to an entry in a database.

    The fact that we have 12 different databases and 12 different cards all doing basically exactly the same thing just shows horrible government inefficiency.

    There should be one department in charge of a persons ID and their entitlements, with one database and one card linking you to that database.

    * Leap is the one exception as it actually stores money and tickets on the card.

    The same ridiculous situation exists in the private sector, where you have dozens of cards in your pocket (credit card, ATM/Debit Card, Tesco card, Starbucks card, security door RFID, card, etc.) are all doing basically the same thing, carrying a unique ID, which ties your identity to their database.

    The private sector will likely resolve that by moving everything to your smartphone/smartwatch, I'm sure the government will be slow to follow, but likely will eventually too.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    bk wrote: »
    I wasn't suggesting we get rid of full size passports, but the passport card is absolutely unnecessary.

    BTW the pages of a passport aren't actually to show your travel history. Only to show at what point you entered and left the country in question of visa purposes.

    The fact that a passport can show your travel history is actually a flaw with passports and a threat to a persons privacy. For instance various middle eastern countries denying you entry because you previously visited Israel.

    The whole concept of a large physical passport with entry/exit stamps is completely unnecessary in our modern world of databases. I expect we will eventually see the large format passport be replaced by national ID and passport cards.



    And that information, plus vehicle types, could also be included on the back of a national ID card.

    Alternatively that data can be encoded in the chip on the card and read by Garda using readers.



    Which is why all that data could be encoded on the chip on the card and only read by a Garda with the correct reader and permissions.

    This would actually be a significant improvement in privacy.



    Leap is more of a platform then just a card. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the anonymous leap cards, but if a leap chip was integrated into a national ID card, people could optionally use it and it would completely replace the registered ID version of the leap card (used by monthly and annual ticket holders, Free travel pass holders, children, students and personalised cards). Thus making the production and administration of these types of duplicate cards unnecessary.

    You seem to be missing the overall point, our modern world is completely powered by databases. All these cards are basically doing exactly the same thing *, they are just carrying a unique ID that ties you to an entry in a database.

    The fact that we have 12 different databases and 12 different cards all doing basically exactly the same thing just shows horrible government inefficiency.

    There should be one department in charge of a persons ID and their entitlements, with one database and one card linking you to that database.

    * Leap is the one exception as it actually stores money and tickets on the card.

    The same ridiculous situation exists in the private sector, where you have dozens of cards in your pocket (credit card, ATM/Debit Card, Tesco card, Starbucks card, security door RFID, card, etc.) are all doing basically the same thing, carrying a unique ID, which ties your identity to their database.

    The private sector will likely resolve that by moving everything to your smartphone/smartwatch, I'm sure the government will be slow to follow, but likely will eventually too.

    And then you lose the card, or some ***** steals it along with your money in your wallet.:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 Avada


    bk wrote: »
    The fact that a passport can show your travel history is actually a flaw with passports and a threat to a persons privacy. For instance various middle eastern countries denying you entry because you previously visited Israel.

    The whole concept of a large physical passport with entry/exit stamps is completely unnecessary in our modern world of databases. I expect we will eventually see the large format passport be replaced by national ID and passport cards.



    And that information, plus vehicle types, could also be included on the back of a national ID card.

    Alternatively that data can be encoded in the chip on the card and read by Garda using readers.



    Which is why all that data could be encoded on the chip on the card and only read by a Garda with the correct reader and permissions.

    This would actually be a significant improvement in privacy.

    Its a necessary evil from an immigration point of view to be able to see someones travel history, that won't be going anywhere for a long time imo.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    And then you lose the card, or some ***** steals it along with your money in your wallet.:mad:

    No difference with losing your wallet today and losing 12 cards! In fact easier to get one integrated card cancelled and replaced then 12!

    Also putting all cards on your smartphone would improve security and privacy.

    A thief would have no access to your locked phone and you could call up all your details on a separate device using your password almost instantly. Smartphones/watches really are the future of carrying ID.
    Avada wrote: »
    Its a necessary evil from an immigration point of view to be able to see someones travel history, that won't be going anywhere for a long time imo.

    Actually it really isn't used like this by emigration. There is nothing stopping someone ordering a new passport after every trip and thus clearing their travel history if they have something nefarious in mind. Also it is relatively easy to forge or modify the visa pages of a passport.

    Emigration handles this with agreements between the EU, US and other countries emigration departments to share their databases of travel data. They really don't rely on your passport anymore.

    It is only a matter of time before they do away with it.


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