The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

zeffabelli · 23-07-2015 04:40PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Remember Police in the USA are local. Every town has their own. Its not like Ireland were its one Big Organization. I bet that cop never took the dash cam video seriously. He probably thought he could erase it later.

This was in Texas.

In a county that used to have public lynchings of black people right up to the 1950's..

Its fcuking chilling is what it is. She was terrified. Of course she didnt want to get out of the car.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sandra-bland-waller-county-texas_55ae7aa6e4b0a9b948529e30?

The teachers can still use paddles in Texas.

Texas is its own little world.

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 04:41PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

which is absolutely, completely, irrelevant to my post. I said

Doesnt matter. Its relevant to the story, thats why i posted.

cnocbui · 23-07-2015 04:42PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not doing what she was told. The cop was a dick and was way over the top but she didn't help herself.

And here is some of her attitude towards the cop. It's a section taken from the transcript of the incident.

and a few seconds later

People are saying that he had an attitude and was racist. Possibly true.

Bland was a civil rights activist and a member of Black Lives Matter which is pretty much an anti-police organisation.

Racism on both parts and stupidity on both parts.

There is so much BS spin in that I am wondering if you apprenticed to Peter Mandelson.

Hagar7 · 23-07-2015 04:43PM

orubiru wrote: »

I did consider this and I was wary of getting involved in blaming the victim as I think the police are clearly in the wrong here (again) BUT given the reputation of the police in the USA if one of them asked me to get out of my car I would be making sure that I did what they asked without provoking them.

I don't think we can ignore that he asks her to stub out her cigarette and she refuses, he asks her to get out of the car and she refuses. It also seems he called for back up?

Of course, all of this distracts us from the real issue that this lady was taken in to custody and then is found dead a few days later. This is unacceptable. Even if it was a suicide it's unacceptable that this should happen to someone who has been taken into police custody.

The social media agenda here seems to be to focus on the circumstances of the arrest and tie that in with the circumstances surrounding her death.

Is there no room at all for the argument that if she had just stubbed out the cigarette after he had issued the ticket then she would have been on her way with no drama?

Read this article,it's very good concerning a person's rights when questioned by an officer.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/faqs/when-can-police-search-your-car/

cnocbui · 23-07-2015 04:44PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you need to read the article you linked to. the article refers to Waller County Sheriff Glenn Smith. The officer who arrested Sandra Bland was Brian Encinia and was only in a job a year from reports i have read.

Whoops, you were correct.

ohnonotgmail · 23-07-2015 04:44PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Doesnt matter. Its relevant to the story, thats why i posted.

but why quote my post when its not relevant? Its not a difficult concept

zeffabelli · 23-07-2015 04:45PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Totally lost me on this.

So you think its best to just cave in to police abuse? Give in to bullies?

She was a civil rights activist so she knew her constitutional rights.

Then she should know you can wipe your ass with the Constitution these days.

Anyone with any legal sense also knows the miranda rights are not really rights at all, they should be named the "miranda threats."

Police are out of control and have been for years, not just a racial issue but the racial issue is bringing the attention to the insane amount of power entitlement enforcement has.

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 04:47PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but why quote my post when its not relevant? Its not a difficult concept

Because you made a perfectly relevant point that the Sheriff was not the arresting officer.

Why is that a problem for you? I dont understand?

ohnonotgmail · 23-07-2015 04:49PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Because you made a perfectly relevant point that the Sheriff was not the arresting officer.

Why is that a problem for you? I dont understand?

it seems i owe you an apology. will you take a cheque?

for some reason i thought you were the person i originally replied to.

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 04:51PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Totally lost me on this.

So you think its best to just cave in to police abuse? Give in to bullies?

She was a civil rights activist so she knew her constitutional rights.

The cop was wrong. I'm not disputing that. He was a complete dick and doesn't come out of this well at all. He could have handled it completely differently.

Her attitude was poor too though. If she complied with the cops instructions, then events would have turned out differently.

Events got out of hand because the cop was a dick and she wouldn't comply with the request by the cop to put out a cigarette.

And on the constitutional rights issue, are we 100% sure that the cop wasn't entitled to get her to put out the cigarette? What if he perceived it as a danger?

I'm guessing that under normal circumstances a cop can't ask you to put out a cigarette. But what if he feels that there's a danger to himself, what's the case then?

There's actually two issues here.

1. Was the arrest legal? Did the cop follow protocol? Were his directions to her legal?

2. How did she die?

Number 2 there would be the most important question in my book.

Hagar7 · 23-07-2015 04:52PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

What's the problem in doing what a cop asks?

If it was me in the traffic stop, I'd follow the cops orders.

If he asked me to put out a cigarette and get out of a car, then that's what I'd do. Am I wrong to follow the directions of a police officer?

If she did what the cop asked in the first place, she'd be alive today.

She had a legal right NOT to step out of her car,she had a legal right NOT to stub out her cigarette,she had a legal right to contact her lawyer,he has NO right unless he has seen or smelt evidence of illegal content.

http://www.flexyourrights.org/faqs/when-can-police-search-your-car/

MadsL · 23-07-2015 04:54PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

The teachers can still use paddles in Texas.

Texas is its own little world.

There are 19 states that still allow corporal punishment, and Texas schoold districts decide on if they will allow it, less than 50% do. Parents can opt out.

Let's not get too cartoonish about Texas.

That said; the behavior of this cop is absolutely abhorrant.

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 05:01PM

Hagar7 wrote: »

She had a legal right NOT to step out of her car,she had a legal right NOT to stub out her cigarette,she had a legal right to contact her lawyer,he has NO right unless he has seen or smelt evidence of illegal content.

http://www.flexyourrights.org/faqs/when-can-police-search-your-car/

Where in the linked article does it say what you have the legal right not to step out of the car or the legal right not to stub out a cigarette?

However, advice given in the website you linked above does say:

Police may order the driver and any passengers out of the vehicle. If this happens, step out of the car.

Also from the same website:

Always greet policemen and policewomen as “Officer”. For example, you may start off with “Good afternoon, Officer. How’s it going today?” Under no circumstances should you ever talk back, raise your voice, or use profanity with a police officer. Being hostile with police is stupid and dangerous. You can’t win that game.

karma_ · 23-07-2015 05:02PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

The cop was wrong. I'm not disputing that. He was a complete dick and doesn't come out of this well at all. He could have handled it completely differently.

Her attitude was poor too though. If she complied with the cops instructions, then events would have turned out differently.

Events got out of hand because the cop was a dick and she wouldn't comply with the request by the cop to put out a cigarette.

And on the constitutional rights issue, are we 100% sure that the cop wasn't entitled to get her to put out the cigarette? What if he perceived it as a danger?

I'm guessing that under normal circumstances a cop can't ask you to put out a cigarette. But what if he feels that there's a danger to himself, what's the case then?

There's actually two issues here.

1. Was the arrest legal? Did the cop follow protocol? Were his directions to her legal?

2. How did she die?

Number 2 there would be the most important question in my book.

During the initial minutes of that stop that lady was more than civil, she answered his questions promptly and honestly and she had every right to be irritated. He escalated the situation right at the point where he decided he was going to make an example (without legal right of course) and demanded the cigarette be put out.

There is no two sides here, one of those parties was in the right and the other was not, the party who was not in the right was wearing a uniform.

This is a clear cut example, and I'm left wondering just exactly why it is that you are so enthusiastically pursuing the 'two' sides agenda.

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 05:04PM

There is no two sides here, one of those parties was in the right and the other was not, the party who was not in the right was wearing a uniform.

I beg to differ. And I have no agenda, I'm just passing comment. I have no skin in this game.

My belief is that this is a case where neither party helped themselves. They both escalated it. He had an attitude and so did she.

It's kind of like the Zimmerman incident. If Trayyvon Martin had kept running away, he would still be alive today.

If Sandra Bland had complied with the police officer's request, she would still be alive today.

karma_ · 23-07-2015 05:06PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

My belief is that this is a case where neither party helped themselves. They both escalated it. He had an attitude and so did she.

It's kind of like the Zimmerman incident. If Trayyvon Martin had kept running away, he would still be alive today.

If Sandra Bland had complied with the police officer's request, she would still be alive today.

That was rhetorical, I'm not really wondering, I have a fair idea already.

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 05:07PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Her attitude was poor too though. If she complied with the cops instructions, then events would have turned out differently.

Hindsight huh?

Given the number of african americans who are shot by police outside of their vehicles I'd be extremely hesitant to get out if it was not required for me to do so.

Hagar7 · 23-07-2015 05:11PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Where in the linked article does it say what you have the legal right not to step out of the car or the legal right not to stub out a cigarette?

However, advice given in the website you linked above does say:

Also from the same website:

Only under suspicious circumstances do you need to step out of your car.
An officer must be able to prove he has enough proof to confict a member of the public.

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 05:17PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Hindsight huh?

Given the number of african americans who are shot by police outside of their vehicles I'd be extremely hesitant to get out if it was not required for me to do so.

Given the number of african americans who are shot by police outside of their vehicles I'd be following the cops instructions to the letter and would get out of the car as slow as I could and give him no reason to get p1ssed off with me.

To be honest, if I was given the same instruction by an unarmed member of the Gardai here, I'd follow their instructions too.

karma_ · 23-07-2015 05:22PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Given the number of african americans who are shot by police outside of their vehicles I'd be following the cops instructions to the letter and would get out of the car as slow as I could and give him no reason to get p1ssed off with me.

To be honest, if I was given the same instruction by an unarmed member of the Gardai here, I'd follow their instructions too.

So?

Guy:Incognito · 23-07-2015 05:26PM

The trooper asks, “You mind putting out your cigarette please?” And Ms. Bland says, “Well, I’m in my car – why do I have to put out my cigarette?” Does she have to put out her cigarette?
“No, she doesn’t have to put out her cigarette. And you wonder why the officer is even bothering with that. This is part of his escalation of the whole event that unfolded, unfortunately.”

Again, I dont see what the big issue is with being asked to put out the cigarette.

I have a feeling if the whole incident was a traffic stop and the above happened, after which the person was sent on their way, people would be saying how she was being disrespectful and should have just put out the cigarette and had the conversation. People are using it as another extra thing to beat the cop with. The case can stand on its own two feet without going for petty stuff.

From the transcript above it seems a perfectly reasonable request given properly. Surely the guy should be able to work without havign smoke in his face?

Guy:Incognito · 23-07-2015 05:29PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Hindsight huh?

Given the number of african americans who are shot by police outside of their vehicles I'd be extremely hesitant to get out if it was not required for me to do so.

Has there been any where the person was complying 100% Any you hear about seem to involve a struggle or a chase. People shouldnt be getting killed but I dont see how antagonising police is going to reduce incidents.

karma_ · 23-07-2015 05:32PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The trooper asks, “You mind putting out your cigarette please?” And Ms. Bland says, “Well, I’m in my car – why do I have to put out my cigarette?” Does she have to put out her cigarette?
“No, she doesn’t have to put out her cigarette. And you wonder why the officer is even bothering with that. This is part of his escalation of the whole event that unfolded, unfortunately.”

Again, I dont see what the big issue is with being asked to put out the cigarette.

I have a feeling if the whole incident was a traffic stop and the above happened, after which the person was sent on their way, people would be saying how she was being disrespectful and should have just put out the cigarette and had the conversation. People are using it as another extra thing to beat the cop with. The case can stand on its own two feet without going for petty stuff.

From the transcript above it seems a perfectly reasonable request given properly. Surely the guy should be able to work without havign smoke in his face?

So presumably all Black people in america should follow all orders from a police officer that are given respectfully? Even though by law they have no legal obligation to oblige?

Where do you stop at? What if a cop asked a Black person to exit their vehicle and go pick some cotton? Should they exit their vehicle and do it?

Guy:Incognito · 23-07-2015 06:05PM

karma_ wrote: »

So presumably all Black people in america should follow all orders from a police officer that are given respectfully? Even though by law they have no legal obligation to oblige?

Where do you stop at? What if a cop asked a Black person to exit their vehicle and go pick some cotton? Should they exit their vehicle and do it?

Why are you going on about black people? I dont see anywhere in my post that mentions doing anything differently if you're black. Would you do things differently based on the race of the cop you're talking to? Did he ask her to put out thecigarette specifically because she black?

I'd consider it common courtesy for people not to blow smoke in my face regardless of either of our race or job. Any time I've been stopped the first thing I do is lower the radio all the way and drop the window right down. I'm probably not legally required to but its common courtesy.

It was hardly an unreasonable request and he said "(would) you mind" and "please". What more do people want? (we're taking that part of the exchange in isolation btw before someone starts going off in another direction)

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 06:12PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It was hardly an unreasonable request and he said "(would) you mind" and "please". What more do people want?

How about police that respect the rights of citizens?

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 06:15PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Given the number of african americans who are shot by police outside of their vehicles I'd be following the cops instructions to the letter and would get out of the car as slow as I could and give him no reason to get p1ssed off with me.

Thats illogical.

Police shoot people outside of vehicles, yet you think that means she should have complied even quicker?

Why shouldnt she say inside the vehicle like the law says she can?

RedemptionZ · 23-07-2015 06:16PM

I'm confused about the big deal here, she killed herself in jail which is obviously a very sad story and shouldn't have been allowed to happen but nobody seems to care about that.

Where does she was arrested, maybe wrongly, actually result in her dying? I doubt they made her kill herself. Or are people implying they killed her?

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 06:22PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

From the transcript above it seems a perfectly reasonable request given properly. Surely the guy should be able to work without havign smoke in his face?

Its not.

Law enforcement cant go demanding citizens do anything other than obey the law.

Thats a pretty basic right. I dont quite get why people dont understand that. In a civilized society law enforcement has to actually follow the law.

I suppose you'd have to have some understanding of the US Constitution to understand. Or Magna Carta.

Billy86 · 23-07-2015 06:35PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Has there been any where the person was complying 100% Any you hear about seem to involve a struggle or a chase. People shouldnt be getting killed but I dont see how antagonising police is going to reduce incidents.

Why should she have to put out the cigarette? What if she were drinking a bottle of water and he told her to pour it out on the street?

She has no obligation to put that cigarette out, and he has no authority to demand her to do so.

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 06:35PM

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I'm confused about the big deal here, she killed herself in jail which is obviously a very sad story and shouldn't have been allowed to happen but nobody seems to care about that.

Yes. They do care. There's an ongoing murder investigation. The police chief as resigned. There's anomalies in the surveillance video.
etc etc etc...

The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

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