The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

deco nate · 23-07-2015 01:19AM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It might well turn out not to be true in this case but lots of people who seem very happy to those around them commit suicide.

Friends and family of Gary Speed commented how he seemed in a good place and talking about the future the day before he commited suicide.

That's all well and good. But what about the edit video that was released by the police clearly showing the same cars going by? Who edited it and why. The fbi are investigating it now, the police chief has taken early retirement. Smells fishy

dfx- · 23-07-2015 04:28AM

I'm finding a lot of this amateur investigation/lynch mob stuff, reading into the colour of the face in the mugshot and why things might have been edited, very uncomfortable.

crockholm wrote: »

Once,when I was living over there I had an "interaction" with a cop,I made sure to answer his questions clearly and concisely,and finished the sentence with "sir",even when he asked stupid questions,even when he mocked my Irish surname,I never once gave the fukker any sassmouth.After 10-12 minutes,I was on my way.

Yeah, but if you had to do that everyday for 'minor' offences like changing lanes your patience would be more strenuously tested after a while I imagine.

Charlie19 · 23-07-2015 04:42AM

Jasus that's a dreadful story and it all came about because she failed to use a car indicator. It's hard to comprehend all these rumours, I just hope there is no cover up and she did indeed take her own life. Poor woman.

InTheTrees · 23-07-2015 04:48AM

There's a acronym DWB that every african american knows.

It means Driving While Black.

Wompa1 · 23-07-2015 06:59AM

Charlie19 wrote: »

Jasus that's a dreadful story and it all came about because she failed to use a car indicator. It's hard to comprehend all these rumours, I just hope there is no cover up and she did indeed take her own life. Poor woman.

My number 1 pet peeve about driving in America. NOBODY uses their indicators...he wasn't pulling her over for that. Hell, in the video he does a U-turn right after she pulls out at a junction.

He was harassing her. He claimed she changed lanes without indicating..which to me would legitimize what she said to him. She changed lanes because he was on her ass. Still...she AND everybody should use their indicators but I've driven in over 20 states here and people do not use them and I don't see people getting pulled over for it. So that's BS

Wompa1 · 23-07-2015 07:03AM

crockholm wrote: »

Once,when I was living over there I had an "interaction" with a cop,I made sure to answer his questions clearly and concisely,and finished the sentence with "sir",even when he asked stupid questions,even when he mocked my Irish surname,I never once gave the fukker any sassmouth.After 10-12 minutes,I was on my way.

I've only been pulled over once. I was nice as pie...a few months later, I get a call from a court liaison about a warrant out for my arrest for failure to appear at court. The guy issued me a ticket to the wrong address. After telling me he quashed the ticket...Fun times. Luckily, I'm white!

A hispanic work colleague told me he got pulled over on his way to work one morning. He had a warrant out due to an unpaid ticket. He had separated from his wife. The ticket went to their house and she never told him. He spent 4 days in jail because he 'got lost in the system'

arayess · 23-07-2015 08:27AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The killing of white Farmers in Zimbabwe got global coverage.

It did but what was done about it.
Tony Blair ran into Iraq at the behest of the US and BiG Oil but allowed british passport holders to be run off their land and killed.

So apart from some crocodile tears and some tory eton old boy ranting about it ....nothing was done about. absolutely sweet fa.

The lady Sandra Bland will probably have more politicial pull than the white farmers.

AudreyHepburn · 23-07-2015 08:47AM

If all the rumors surrounding this case turn out to be true then it's truly sickening and the officer involved should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

However I really don't think we know enough yet to be passing judgement either way. Would be asking to much of people to withhold jumping to conclusions when we are not yet in full possession of the facts?

So far we have only Ms. Bland's side of the story in full, that's not nearly enough to convict anyone beyond doubt.

Also, and I know I will probably get lynched for this, but I refuse to believe that every single case of a black person dying in police custody in the US is a case of police brutality. Nor do I believe that every time the police knock on a black person's door or pull them over they are just harassing them.

Is it not possible of the people in these cases are actually in the wrong, not the police?

kylith · 23-07-2015 08:54AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But out of those 644 how many were by police and how many were by civilians?

Funny how these incidents only garner attention in the media when it's white on black, whereas if the perpetrator is black on black or black on white, nobody really seems to have the same degree of outrage.

You're right. There certainly wasn't articles about a white man who died (was killed) in police custody in Mississippi all over my Facebook yesterday. Oh wait, yes there was; it was all over my Facebook.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3168941/Troy-Goode-dies-Mississippi-incident-involving-Southaven-police-following-Widespread-Panic-concert.html

orubiru · 23-07-2015 09:17AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If all the rumors surrounding this case turn out to be true then it's truly sickening and the officer involved should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

However I really don't think we know enough yet to be passing judgement either way. Would be asking to much of people to withhold jumping to conclusions when we are not yet in full possession of the facts?

So far we have only Ms. Bland's side of the story in full, that's not nearly enough to convict anyone beyond doubt.

Also, and I know I will probably get lynched for this, but I refuse to believe that every single case of a black person dying in police custody in the US is a case of police brutality. Nor do I believe that every time the police knock on a black person's door or pull them over they are just harassing them.

Is it not possible of the people in these cases are actually in the wrong, not the police?

I think the fact that she died in police custody puts the police in the wrong to some degree. Regardless of any conversation on race or police brutality, this kind of thing should never happen. If it does happen then there should be a full and transparent investigation.

Something that stands out for me where that she seems to have been in jail for several days before she killed herself? I thought her alleged crime would not be serious enough that they would have to hold her in jail for several days?

Another striking thing is that fact that she refuses to step out of the car when asked. I really feel like if I lived in a culture that frequently reports stories of people just like me being beaten up or killed by police in questionable circumstances that I would just cooperate. Refusing to get out of the car is just giving them an excuse to do whatever they are gonna do.

Here in Ireland we seem to be overly exposed to a lot of these kinds of stories from the USA. We don't really ever find out about incidents where people die in suspicious circumstances involving police in countries like Estonia or Angola or Singapore (just listing random countries) unless it involves an Irish citizen.

While it is clear that someone who is arrested and taken in to custody by the police should never end up dead, is a single incident like this in the USA really worthy of worldwide media attention?

DarkyHughes · 23-07-2015 09:24AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But out of those 644 how many were by police and how many were by civilians?

Funny how these incidents only garner attention in the media when it's white on black, whereas if the perpetrator is black on black or black on white, nobody really seems to have the same degree of outrage.

You haven't watched the O'Reilly Factor.

zeffabelli · 23-07-2015 09:28AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If all the rumors surrounding this case turn out to be true then it's truly sickening and the officer involved should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

However I really don't think we know enough yet to be passing judgement either way. Would be asking to much of people to withhold jumping to conclusions when we are not yet in full possession of the facts?

So far we have only Ms. Bland's side of the story in full, that's not nearly enough to convict anyone beyond doubt.

Also, and I know I will probably get lynched for this, but I refuse to believe that every single case of a black person dying in police custody in the US is a case of police brutality. Nor do I believe that every time the police knock on a black person's door or pull them over they are just harassing them.

Is it not possible of the people in these cases are actually in the wrong, not the police?

I'd say white people get harassed too.

Cops have a huge sense of entitlement as do low level enforcement. Trickle down effect of the patriot act and some policies Clinton brought in. That's why US has the insane incarceration rate that it does.

No one will respect enforcement at this rate, just making fools of themselves.

Vojera · 23-07-2015 09:39AM

orubiru wrote: »

Another striking thing is that fact that she refuses to step out of the car when asked. I really feel like if I lived in a culture that frequently reports stories of people just like me being beaten up or killed by police in questionable circumstances that I would just cooperate. Refusing to get out of the car is just giving them an excuse to do whatever they are gonna do.

Conversely you may feel safer with a car door between yourself and the police officer. You may feel that stepping out of the car is removing your last defence.

MonkeyTennis · 23-07-2015 09:42AM

Interview with ex Baltimore cop Michael A Wood on his real experiences. Some truly shocking revelations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nPyf-0UMc

wakka12 · 23-07-2015 10:19AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But out of those 644 how many were by police and how many were by civilians?

Funny how these incidents only garner attention in the media when it's white on black, whereas if the perpetrator is black on black or black on white, nobody really seems to have the same degree of outrage.

Because blacks are an oppressed minority and whites arent. Do you think anyone would care if a gay guy beat up a guy for being straight?It sounds so ridiculous it might gain attention due to the novelty of the event but I doubt anyone would feel too much sympathy for the victim, but if the roles were reversed it would be different.

wakka12 · 23-07-2015 10:27AM

Oh my god if she's dead in those mugshots I will have lost all faith in humanity that is just beyond awful to think about

orubiru · 23-07-2015 10:54AM

Vojera wrote: »

Conversely you may feel safer with a car door between yourself and the police officer. You may feel that stepping out of the car is removing your last defence.

I did consider this and I was wary of getting involved in blaming the victim as I think the police are clearly in the wrong here (again) BUT given the reputation of the police in the USA if one of them asked me to get out of my car I would be making sure that I did what they asked without provoking them.

I don't think we can ignore that he asks her to stub out her cigarette and she refuses, he asks her to get out of the car and she refuses. It also seems he called for back up?

Of course, all of this distracts us from the real issue that this lady was taken in to custody and then is found dead a few days later. This is unacceptable. Even if it was a suicide it's unacceptable that this should happen to someone who has been taken into police custody.

The social media agenda here seems to be to focus on the circumstances of the arrest and tie that in with the circumstances surrounding her death.

Is there no room at all for the argument that if she had just stubbed out the cigarette after he had issued the ticket then she would have been on her way with no drama?

kylith · 23-07-2015 10:59AM

orubiru wrote: »

Is there no room at all for the argument that if she had just stubbed out the cigarette after he had issued the ticket then she would have been on her way with no drama?

Is anyone arguing that the penalty for not getting out of a car and for smoking a cigarette should be arrest? What would she be charged with? "Not respecting my authoritah"?

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 11:03AM

kylith wrote: »

Is anyone arguing that the penalty for not getting out of a car and for smoking a cigarette should be arrest? What would she be charged with? "Not respecting my authoritah"?

What's the problem in doing what a cop asks?

If it was me in the traffic stop, I'd follow the cops orders.

If he asked me to put out a cigarette and get out of a car, then that's what I'd do. Am I wrong to follow the directions of a police officer?

If she did what the cop asked in the first place, she'd be alive today.

kylith · 23-07-2015 11:07AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

What's the problem in doing what a cop asks?

If it was me in the traffic stop, I'd follow the cops orders.

If he asked me to put out a cigarette and get out of a car, then that's what I'd do. Am I wrong to follow the directions of a police officer?

If she did what the cop asked in the first place, she'd be alive today.

Hey, so would I, but I also don't see what the big whoop about putting a fag out is. So she was smoking; does that make him incapable of issuing her with a ticket?

I find it discomforting that you seem to be saying that by smoking and not wanting to get out of her car she somehow brought about her own death, or that those actions somehow justify the fact that she later died in custody. Do you think that dying in a police cell is an acceptable outcome for the heinous crimes of smoking and not wanting to get out of a car?

Boring username · 23-07-2015 11:11AM

wakka12 wrote: »

Oh my god if she's dead in those mugshots I will have lost all faith in humanity that is just beyond awful to think about

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Unbunch those panties. What leads you to believe that she is dead in the mugshot? Some randomer said it on the internet?

It's quite hard to purse your lips and keep your jaw closed when you're dead you know. That's why an undertaker stitches them up before a funeral. Not really what you're seeing in the pic here though is it:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=Sandra+Bland.&rlz=1C1CHMO_enIE505IE506&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIqK7G7oDxxgIVxBfbCh1xwA5U&biw=1680&bih=925#tbm=isch&q=Sandra+Bland+mugshot

[Awaits new conspiracy theory that the Police/Freemasons/Lizard people secretly slipped the body out to a rogue undertaker who performed a quick touch up for the deceased mug shot, then returned quietly returned it without anyone noticing, and before rigor mortis set in. It all makes perfect sense if you just abandon reason and logic, sheeple!]

orubiru · 23-07-2015 11:18AM

kylith wrote: »

Is anyone arguing that the penalty for not getting out of a car and for smoking a cigarette should be arrest? What would she be charged with? "Not respecting my authoritah"?

I agree with you to a point. The punishment clearly does not fit the "crime" in this case.

I am wondering though, if the police here in Ireland pulled you over and demanded that you get out of your car, would you refuse? How would you deal with the Gardai in general? Are you gonna be confrontational or just do what they ask (within reason, of course)?

I guess, what I am saying is that this incident did not take place in a vacuum or without context. Anyone living in the USA is surely aware of the situation there. Sandra Bland was apparently a social activist and so she would surely have known the potential danger in basically refusing to exit the vehicle.

It just seems like a situation that could have been absolutely avoided by being cooperative.

Now, that doesn't change my feeling that the police officer was basically harassing this lady but I think the way to deal with that harassment is not to be confrontational.

Clearly the police in some parts of the USA need to do some serious work on how they go about doing their job.

wakka12 · 23-07-2015 11:19AM

Boring username wrote: »

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Unbunch those panties. What leads you to believe that she is dead in the mugshot? Some randomer said it on the internet?

It's quite hard to purse your lips and keep your jaw closed when you're dead you know. That's why an undertaker stitches them up before a funeral. Not really what you're seeing in the pic here though is it:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=Sandra+Bland.&rlz=1C1CHMO_enIE505IE506&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIqK7G7oDxxgIVxBfbCh1xwA5U&biw=1680&bih=925#tbm=isch&q=Sandra+Bland+mugshot

[Awaits new conspiracy theory that the Police/Freemasons/Lizard people secretly slipped the body out to a rogue undertaker who performed a quick touch up for the deceased mug shot, then returned quietly returned it without anyone noticing, and before rigor mortis set in. It all makes perfect sense if you just abandon reason and logic, sheeple!]

Ok good. I just heard people speculating that she was dead in the photo and it worried me I hadnt looked into it yet
And people thought she was dead because the other prisoners in the same prison had mugshots with a grey brick background while hers was the only one that was different, with a flat darker background similar to a floor.

orubiru · 23-07-2015 11:28AM

kylith wrote: »

Do you think that dying in a police cell is an acceptable outcome for the heinous crimes of smoking and not wanting to get out of a car?

Do you honestly think that ANYONE believes that is an acceptable outcome?

Come on.

The reaction of most people is to ask how this could have been avoided.

If you think that there's nothing she could have done to avoid what ultimately happened then that's fair enough.

It should be easy, though, to understand why some people would come to the conclusion that if she had just cooperated then maybe things would have been OK.

That seems to be the way these "trial by Social Media" things go. You are either 100% right or 100% wrong, with no middle ground.

I feel confident in saying that NOBODY thinks that dying in a police cell is an acceptable outcome for the heinous crimes of smoking and not wanting to get out of a car.

seamus · 23-07-2015 11:30AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

What's the problem in doing what a cop asks?

If it was me in the traffic stop, I'd follow the cops orders.

If he asked me to put out a cigarette and get out of a car, then that's what I'd do. Am I wrong to follow the directions of a police officer?

If she did what the cop asked in the first place, she'd be alive today.

That doesn't mean she had to. You're basically saying it's all her fault.

By that logic, if the officer had told her to remove her dress and then arrested her for refusing, that would be her fault too.

If an officer gives you directions that are not lawful, then yes you are wrong to comply.

The catalyst here was the cop asking her what was wrong. She was plain honest - she got pulled over for a minor issue and then was left sitting in the car for a while, getting pissed off.

The officer took issue with this, and that's what kicked the whole thing off. He had no right to ask her to put out his cigarette, no right to demand she get out of the car for refusing, and therefore no right to remove her from the car and arrest her.

This officer needs a criminal conviction and a jail sentence to point out the seriousness of violating an individual's right and assualting them. Being a police officer does not mean that every instruction you give is "lawful" and must be followed.

When she told him why she was annoyed he should have swallowed his pride, said, "OK ma'am, we'll just sort this ticket and then you can be on your way". Police officers are servants of the people, not the other way around. People should not be expected to call a police officer "sir", it should be the exact opposite.
By their very nature their activities are going to piss people off, and someone who can't deal with a pissed off member of the public in a calm and objective manner has no business being a police officer.

Another case where someone is arrested for resisting arrest. Even though they were never under arrest. Seems to be a common one in the US.

The issue with the US cops is that of amateurism. The police force is too highly tiered, too focussed on money, and with too much power given to the individual.

There should only be federal and state police. There should be no concept of county police, or campus police, mall police, etc etc. Each state should manage its own police force from public funds, and no-one else is authorised to enforce the law or make arrests.
This situation where some guy in a backwater county can become a police officer after a few hours' training is the reason why there's so much conflict between civilians and law enforcement.

The entire US justice system is broken, this is the inevitable outcome of that broken system.

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 11:31AM

kylith wrote: »

Hey, so would I, but I also don't see what the big whoop about putting a fag out is. So she was smoking; does that make him incapable of issuing her with a ticket?

I find it discomforting that you seem to be saying that by smoking and not wanting to get out of her car she somehow brought about her own death, or that those actions somehow justify the fact that she later died in custody. Do you think that dying in a police cell is an acceptable outcome for the heinous crimes of smoking and not wanting to get out of a car?

I'm not saying that what happened was right. The cop was clearly on a power trip. I accept that.

I'm just saying that if she followed the cop's instructions, she would be here today. If she followed the cop's instructions, he would have given her a ticket and she would have been on her way.

And lastly, she died in a police cell. That's all we know at the moment. The cops are saying suicide, we'll have to wait and see. You are talking as if the cops murdered her. That hasn't been proven and I'll wait to see the outcome before I rush to judgement.

crockholm · 23-07-2015 11:31AM

kylith wrote: »

Is anyone arguing that the penalty for not getting out of a car and for smoking a cigarette should be arrest? What would she be charged with? "Not respecting my authoritah"?

A lit cigarette could be seen as a potential hazard or a weapon.This may seem ott,but the potential to hurt someone with a stubbie is there.On other cop shows like "Speeders",when the person pulled over is smoking the responding officer asks them to extinguish the ciggie,which they tend to do.

BattleCorp · 23-07-2015 11:36AM

seamus wrote: »

That doesn't mean she had to. You're basically saying it's all her fault.

.

I most definitely am not saying that it was all her fault.

I'm just pointing out that this could (should) have had a different outcome.

In your opinion, what would have been the outcome if she did what the cop asked? Supposing she got out of the car and put out the cigarette? What would have happened?

It's my opinion that she would have gotten a ticket and the incident wouldn't have escalated the way it did.

The cop is at fault for escalating it, but she could have played things differently with a better outcome for herself.

suicide_circus · 23-07-2015 11:37AM

I really don't think she's dead in the mugshot. An autopsy should clear it up

seamus · 23-07-2015 11:46AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I most definitely am not saying that it was all her fault.

I'm just pointing out that this could (should) have had a different outcome.

Well, no ****. That applies for any situation. That doesn't mean she was wrong to refuse.

In your opinion, what would have been the outcome if she did what the cop asked? Supposing she got out of the car and put out the cigarette? What would have happened?

In my opinion? The cop would have put her in cuffs, put her in his car, then searched her car, and brought her down to the station on some vague public order charge.

He asked a question, didn't like when he got an honest answer, and decided he was going to treat her like **** because he felt disrespected. If she put out the cigarette, he would have found some other tiny way to continue attempting to exert his power.

What should have happened is that he should have bit his lip and not responded to her annoyance, except to try and calm her down.

The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

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