I'm becoming very cynical about people who say they're interested in eqaulity

K4t · 20-07-2015 09:45PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

One recruiter said this:

Now this is discrimination. Yet the same people who complain about sexism supported this stance. If they were really concerned about women they'd open their eyes to the fact that working class women are discriminated too.

You're confusing class with feminism here - working class males are also discriminated against in the interview process, perhaps even more so than their female counterparts.

It's not just feminism but a lot of people who claim to support equality seem to be only supporting their particular brand of equality because it's the flavor of the month.

As they're entitled to do. Also, there's nothing wrong with flavour of the month - the same sex marriage campaign started at a grass roots level, and in the end heavily relied on flavour of the month Yes supporters/voters of equality for it to become a reality. You just sound like you're moaning to be honest because there are poor people in Africa being neglected by the west - which is fair enough, just a strange way of going about it with this thread.

20-07-2015 09:54PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How do they do that?

I passively support feminism for myself and those around me, by behaving as a feminist. I do nothing for feminism in sub Sahara Africa and I do nothing to support travellers in my area. Does that invalidate the fact that I'm a feminist?

I think supporting women trying to start up their own businesses in places like india, through Kiva, is the closest I can get to effectively helping like
I tried donating to the gulabi gang as well but their website wouldn't work

I don't really get it otherwise. Would it not be more condescending for people here to claim they know best how to help women in an entirely different culture?
Is there some way for us to help them stamp out fgm? And then you get people saying it's just their culture leave them alone??
Seems an odd rant

NachoBusiness · 20-07-2015 10:03PM

What annoys me are feminists that haven't got an egalitarian bone in their body. They push for so much in certain areas for women, and succeed, that they will quite often create a situation where men are then disadvantaged / discriminated against instead and when this is pointed out to them, they will just say that men should then get up off their arse and do something about it like they did, completely ignoring the fact that men's lobby groups are taken about as serious as seven year old saying he's gonna leave home.

The Minister for Equality in the UK from a few years back, Harriet Harmon, a perfect example of one of those feminists.

[Father Trendy]
I see the human species as a seesaw. One side male and the other side female. If you keep raising up one side, trying to get it higher and higher up into the clouds, it will invariably have a knock on effect of lowering the other side into the gutter. So be an egalitarian, that way we can all enjoy our time in the playground of life.
[/Father Trendy]

20-07-2015 10:04PM

Trudiha wrote: »

It's the intersectionality thing. The most obvious beneficiaries of any specific piece of equality legislation are going to be those only held back by that specific discrimination; white, middle class women are going to gain most from feminism because their class and colour aren’t discriminated against.

As a privileged, white, middle class dyke, I am aware of the irony of discussing feminism or gay rights with a poor, straight, white single father but it’s not a race to see who is more oppressed, our shared goals are probably similar.

I agree with what you're saying but a cursory browse through Tumblr *shudder* shows that there is a ridiculously large number of keyboard warriors (largely, though not exclusively, middle-class American women) out there for whom a race to be the most discriminated against is exactly what their warped version of "equality" is all about! In theory I think such people are largely idiots who should be ignored but it can be difficult to do that when it's always the emptiest vessels that make the most noise.

Personally I've no problem calling myself a feminist (though I'm far too passive to be an activist of any sort) but it doesn't mean I agree with everything every self-identified feminist says. I don't buy into any of the "men can't be feminists", "women can't be sexist" or "trans women aren't really women" crap.

KomradeBishop · 20-07-2015 10:22PM

It's a matter of power and influence: We have the power/influence to affect how equal/unequal our part of the world is, but there's fúck all we can do in places where women are e.g. still essentially treated just as property.

You can't make the whole world equal all at once, because politics/international-politics gets in the way - many parts of the world are very fúcked up and will remain so for our lifetimes - but we can still improve our own lot, and try to culturally and politically put pressure on other parts of the world to improve.

When you think about it, it would be very arrogant for any of us, to assume we have or should have any say or political influence in other parts of the world - we do have some, sure, but it's very limited and not really enough to make much of a difference anywhere else.

So, the best we can do, is work to improve equality the best we can within our own sphere of influence - which is very limited. We don't really ever have perfect equality in reality, it's just an ideal - but we should never stop striving towards greater equality, because it generally (unless you deliberately take it to a ridiculous edge-case extreme) makes life better for everyone.

Co-incidentally, I was only just watching a documentary myself, on the Indian 'Pink Gang' group mentioned earlire (on the HBO show Vice, which was recommended to me - really really good), and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnpnd0T4gE

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:22PM

osarusan wrote: »

To be honest, I doubt you'll find many people who are equally interested/campaign equally in all aspects of equality for everybody.

You'd end up being cynical of everyone.

No I'm saying a lot of the people who say they stand for equality aren't doing it out of a sense of injustice rather a sense of self promotion.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:27PM

K4t wrote: »

You're confusing class with feminism here - working class males are also discriminated against in the interview process, perhaps even more so than their female counterparts.

As they're entitled to do. Also, there's nothing wrong with flavour of the month - the same sex marriage campaign started at a grass roots level, and in the end heavily relied on flavour of the month Yes supporters/voters of equality for it to become a reality. You just sound like you're moaning to be honest because there are poor people in Africa being neglected by the west - which is fair enough, just a strange way of going about it with this thread.

I'm not moaning. I'm reiterating the point that feminism only supports white middle class women. It doesn't support women and it isn't about equality.

On the first point you're confused. I'm not mixing up class and gender I'm a biologist I know the difference between the X and Y and a social construct. I was using that example to reiterate the point that feminism only supports white middle class women.

Oh I'm not turning this into a human rights debate. I believe everyone is entitled to be whatever they want. I'm just saying they're hypocrites.

Trudiha · 20-07-2015 10:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying but a cursory browse through Tumblr *shudder* shows that there is a ridiculously large number of keyboard warriors (largely, though not exclusively, middle-class American women) out there for whom a race to be the most discriminated against is exactly what their warped version of "equality" is all about! In theory I think such people are largely idiots who should be ignored but it can be difficult to do that when it's always the emptiest vessels that make the most noise.

Personally I've no problem calling myself a feminist (though I'm far too passive to be an activist of any sort) but it doesn't mean I agree with everything every self-identified feminist says. I don't buy into any of the "men can't be feminists", "women can't be sexist" or "trans women aren't really women" crap.

Feminism is a broad church, just like Christianity, there are those who’d think it was their Christian duty to buy a hungry person a sandwich and those who’d think it was their Christian duty to stick a burning cross on your front lawn.

That doesn’t make equality a bad thing or a done deal.

20-07-2015 10:32PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

When you think about it, it would be very arrogant for any of us, to assume we have or should have any say or political influence in other parts of the world - we do have some, sure, but it's very limited and not really enough to make much of a difference anywhere else.

So, the best we can do, is work to improve equality the best we can within our own sphere of influence - which is very limited. We don't really ever have perfect equality in reality, it's just an ideal - but we should never stop striving towards greater equality, because it generally (unless you deliberately take it to a ridiculous edge-case extreme) makes life better for everyone.

Co-incidentally, I was only just watching a documentary myself, on the Indian 'Pink Gang' group mentioned earlire (on the HBO show Vice, which was recommended to me - really really good), and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

The universe must be broken, we agree on something

I saw a documentary a while back on locals living around the taj mahal as well. They have a curfew or something so they don't upset the tourists, and life is awful hard for them
It's sad

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:33PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How do they do that?

I passively support feminism for myself and those around me, by behaving as a feminist. I do nothing for feminism in sub Sahara Africa and I do nothing to support travellers in my area. Does that invalidate the fact that I'm a feminist?

I'll put it this way. A lot of feminists in the west threw up a stink because a scientist wore a shirt with pictures of what I'd call sexy women on it. He was reduced to tears by feminists and the twitter mob.

Tanzania, Kenya and Congo (I'm not familiar with West Africa) are three countries in which women don't go to secondary school because of sexist policies. In the Congo they're more likely to be raped than to go to further education. There are men and women in all of these countries fighting for women's rights in these countries.

How do the women in the latter scenario feel about the feminists in the first scenario you think? Well the ones I talked to aren't happy to say the least because this type of feminism (the t-shirt kind) is a slap in the face to people looking for equal rights for the sexes.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 10:36PM

steddyeddy wrote:

I'm not moaning. I'm reiterating the point that feminism only supports white middle class women. It doesn't support women and it isn't about equality.

All feminism or SOME feminists?
If it's all feminism, you're wrong. If it's some feminists, your point is boring.

steddyeddy wrote:

Oh I'm not turning this into a human rights debate. I believe everyone is entitled to be whatever they want. I'm just saying they're hypocrites.

Yeah you're being quite careful not to engage in debate about anything. You make a statement and when it's countered you move the goalposts and make another statement.

What exactly is your point? I'd love to see you state your current point and compare it to the OP.

RDM_83 again · 20-07-2015 10:36PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

Typed on a device that will be sent back to the 3rd world for "recycling" when it reaches the end of its useful lifespan, poisoning the people (who're desperate for the income it generates) and destroying the environment.

We're all part of the problem

20-07-2015 10:39PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

All feminism or SOME feminists?
If it's all feminism, you're wrong. If it's some feminists, your point is boring.

Yeah you're being quite careful not to engage in debate about anything. You make a statement and when it's countered you move the goalposts and make another statement.

What exactly is your point? I'd love to see you state your current point and compare it to the OP.

Some people in one part of the world have a different view to some people in another part of the world
We shouldn't do anything because people somewhere else have it harder

K4t · 20-07-2015 10:43PM

On the first point you're confused. I'm not mixing up class and gender I'm a biologist I know the difference between the X and Y and a social construct. I was using that example to reiterate the point that feminism only supports white middle class women.

And I'm reiterating the point which is that you can't expect feminism to stop class discrimination; men in that same job situation often experience worse prejudice. Feminism gets the working class woman the interview, but it can't get her a new house in Foxrock.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not moaning. I'm reiterating the point that feminism only supports white middle class women. It doesn't support women and it isn't about equality.

I assume you don't mean that white middle class women aren't women, or human? Feminism supports all women, but obviously middle to upper class women are going to benefit most from it for a number of reasons - 1. Because of class, they have money and 2. Because there's simply more of them than other classes of women in Ireland.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:44PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

All feminism or SOME feminists?
If it's all feminism, you're wrong. If it's some feminists, your point is boring.

Yeah you're being quite careful not to engage in debate about anything. You make a statement and when it's countered you move the goalposts and make another statement.

What exactly is your point? I'd love to see you state your current point and compare it to the OP.

My point is that a lot of people who claim to be fighting for equality aren't. That a lot of people are disingenuous and readily promote some peoples while discriminating against others.

As another poster brought up there was another thread where accents, jobs and place of birth were being discussed. Some people from the Tim Hunt thread (about a scientist allegedly discriminating against women) were lambasting Tim Hunt as sexist yet on this thread they engaged in some pretty discriminatory remarks about people from different socio economic areas from them.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:46PM

K4t wrote: »

And I'm reiterating the point which is that you can't expect feminism to stop class discrimination; men in that same job situation often experience worse prejudice. Feminism gets the working class woman the interview, but it can't get her a new house in Foxrock.

It gets middle class women the interview.

[/QUOTE]I assume you don't mean that white middle class women aren't women, or human? Feminism supports all women, but obviously middle to upper class women are going to benefit most from it for a number of reasons - 1. Because of class, they have money and 2. Because there's simply more of them than other classes of women in Ireland.[/QUOTE]

OK let's switch to America. A place with high levels of poverty. I don't see feminism doing much for the poor American women there.

Trudiha · 20-07-2015 10:48PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll put it this way. A lot of feminists in the west threw up a stink because a scientist wore a shirt with pictures of what I'd call sexy women on it. He was reduced to tears by feminists and the twitter mob.

Tanzania, Kenya and Congo (I'm not familiar with West Africa) are three countries in which women don't go to secondary school because of sexist policies. In the Congo they're more likely to be raped than to go to further education. There are men and women in all of these countries fighting for women's rights in these countries.

How do the women in the latter scenario feel about the feminists in the first scenario you think? Well the ones I talked to aren't happy to say the least because this type of feminism (the t-shirt kind) is a slap in the face to people looking for equal rights for the sexes.

These scenarios don't cancel each other out. Crying man putting away his sexy lady t-shirt, doesn't mean that any girl will stay in education for a shorter time. There is no lack of anger in the world, people can be angry and active about both things.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 10:48PM

steddyeddy wrote:

I'll put it this way. A lot of feminists in the west threw up a stink because a scientist wore a shirt with pictures of what I'd call sexy women on it. He was reduced to tears by feminists and the twitter mob.

I don't think many people were happy about that incident and I know I wasn't.

steddyeddy wrote:

Tanzania, Kenya and Congo (I'm not familiar with West Africa) are three countries in which women don't go to secondary school because of sexist policies. In the Congo they're more likely to be raped than to go to further education. There are men and women in all of these countries fighting for women's rights in these countries.

I don't think many people are happy about that situation and I know I'm not.

steddyeddy wrote:

How do the women in the latter scenario feel about the feminists in the first scenario you think? Well the ones I talked to aren't happy to say the least because this type of feminism (the t-shirt kind) is a slap in the face to people looking for equal rights for the sexes.

It's hard to watch you struggle with this. Women in Tanzania and women in Ireland BOTH experience sexism. Those in Tanzania presumably experience more sexism than women in Ireland. They both fight for equality. Some people are stupid and do stupid things. Those people do their cause no favours.
We don't measure movements by their most extreme edges. Jaysus a small bit of cop on would sort out this whole situation for you.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:51PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's a matter of power and influence: We have the power/influence to affect how equal/unequal our part of the world is, but there's fúck all we can do in places where women are e.g. still essentially treated just as property.

You can't make the whole world equal all at once, because politics/international-politics gets in the way - many parts of the world are very fúcked up and will remain so for our lifetimes - but we can still improve our own lot, and try to culturally and politically put pressure on other parts of the world to improve.

When you think about it, it would be very arrogant for any of us, to assume we have or should have any say or political influence in other parts of the world - we do have some, sure, but it's very limited and not really enough to make much of a difference anywhere else.

So, the best we can do, is work to improve equality the best we can within our own sphere of influence - which is very limited. We don't really ever have perfect equality in reality, it's just an ideal - but we should never stop striving towards greater equality, because it generally (unless you deliberately take it to a ridiculous edge-case extreme) makes life better for everyone.

Co-incidentally, I was only just watching a documentary myself, on the Indian 'Pink Gang' group mentioned earlire (on the HBO show Vice, which was recommended to me - really really good), and anyone who doesn't give a toss about having an advantage in life off the back of the third world, should watch it (only about 14 mins):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnpnd0T4gE

That documentary series has plenty of episodes, giving you a good look into just how shít life is for many people, in the third world - stuff you would rarely see reported on elsewhere.

I'm not talking about political influence KB. I'm talking about money. The women's group in Tanzania need money to be able to put women through school so they won't have to stay at home and sew or cook to support their families. They're looking for people to raise awareness that is all.

It's a bit sickening when feminist issues (they're not feminist) like what t-shirt someone is wearing gets more publicity than them. They have made contact with the American Association Of University Women several times with no response.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 10:52PM

bluewolf wrote:

Some people in one part of the world have a different view to some people in another part of the world We shouldn't do anything because people somewhere else have it harder

Nicely summarised but you forgot how the only riteous pursuit of equality is steddyeddy's crushed against classism in science.

Trudiha · 20-07-2015 10:53PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

OK let's switch to America. A place with high levels of poverty. I don't see feminism doing much for the poor American women there.

Privileged American women are kicking up a fuss about contraception being withdrawn by some insurance providers, that will make a difference to less privileged women.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/lena-dunham-birth-control_n_5611748.html

KomradeBishop · 20-07-2015 10:54PM

bluewolf wrote: »

The universe must be broken, we agree on something

I saw a documentary a while back on locals living around the taj mahal as well. They have a curfew or something so they don't upset the tourists, and life is awful hard for them
It's sad

Ya, very sad - and around that part of the world (across the border in Pakistan), there is still modern day slavery as well - in another episode of the same series:

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:57PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think many people were happy about that incident and I know I wasn't.

I don't think many people are happy about that situation and I know I'm not.

It's hard to watch you struggle with this. Women in Tanzania and women in Ireland BOTH experience sexism. Those in Tanzania presumably experience more sexism than women in Ireland. They both fight for equality. Some people are stupid and do stupid things. Those people do their cause no favours.
We don't measure movements by their most extreme edges. Jaysus a small bit of cop on would sort out this whole situation for you.

I don't think you get my point. You keep saying feminism. My point is it's not one movement. There's white middle class feminism in the west and people not receiving education in Africa.

The other point referring to my OP is that some people who support western feminism say consider themselves fighting for equality. I disagree. I think that they fight for promotion of one group. My other point also in the OP is that I am sick of some people fighting for equality in the popular arenas of sexism ect but still hold discriminatory views against a certain class.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-07-2015 10:59PM

bluewolf wrote:

I think it's very hypocritical of him considering there are children out there getting no education at all

Best to stop all science teaching in the west because of inequality in education in Tanzania. Right?

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 10:59PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nicely summarised but you forgot how the only riteous pursuit of equality is steddyeddy's crushed against classism in science.

Actually I have experienced little or no classism in science.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 11:00PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Best to stop all science teaching in the west because of inequality in education in Tanzania. Right?

I was teaching in Tanzania.

KomradeBishop · 20-07-2015 11:01PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Typed on a device that will be sent back to the 3rd world for "recycling" when it reaches the end of its useful lifespan, poisoning the people (who're desperate for the income it generates) and destroying the environment.

We're all part of the problem

Indeed, ya - but that is a reason to care more, not less?

steddyeddy · 20-07-2015 11:03PM

Guys if you look over my OP it refers to people holding views on equality on one hand (feminism) yet holding negative views on a certain type of class on the other hand. It isn't necessarily a feminism is bad thread.

KomradeBishop · 20-07-2015 11:10PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not talking about political influence KB. I'm talking about money. The women's group in Tanzania need money to be able to put women through school so they won't have to stay at home and sew or cook to support their families. They're looking for people to raise awareness that is all.

It's a bit sickening when feminist issues (they're not feminist) like what t-shirt someone is wearing gets more publicity than them. They have made contact with the American Association Of University Women several times with no response.

Well, that's a political issue in the end - that can only change through a change in politics in Tanzania; you can't rely on foreign help/aid for issues like these.

If every feminist association tried to promote awareness of every feminist issue in the world, or if they tried to prioritize them based on the worst breaches of feminist principles in the world, then they'd:
1: Stretch themselves too thin and become completely ineffective.
2: Would be prioritizing issues that they have no political influence over (i.e. things happening far away in the world).

That's not really practical - activist organizations usually have to stay local; sure, they should do a bit of international networking and help out similar organizations elsewhere in the world, but that'd be secondary to their main purpose locally.

I think people are way way too prone to being hyper-critical of anything/everything to do with feminism online these days - and usually for spurious/superficial reasons, that can be picked apart with just a little analysis.

K4t · 20-07-2015 11:13PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

OK let's switch to America. A place with high levels of poverty. I don't see feminism doing much for the poor American women there.

I've never heard any feminist say that feminism could cure poverty - Feminism you could say attempts to give the same rights and opportunities to the poverty stricken female as the poverty stricken male. Feminism won't make the woman wealthy while the man remains poor though, that would be discrimination.

I do think feminism is for all women, but as you yourself have shown in your examples, class conquers all.

I'm becoming very cynical about people who say they're interested in eqaulity

Comments