Number of teachers unemployed

maynooth_rules · 07-07-2015 6:20pm #1

Wondering if the Unions or anyone has an actual figure for teachers with no work or those that don't have a CID.
Just reading the posts here the past 6 months and the situation seems even much worse now than in the early years of the recession from 2008-2010.
It just seems to be an issue that is never mentioned in the media and beyond teachers and their families nobody appears to realise how bad the situation is

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-07-2015 7:14pm

See the Ward Report for the statistics on teachers' contracts - those without CID, working part time etc. Very comprehensive. That gives a good picture of the huge scale of the problem of underemployment, and shows the break down across sectors (hint: one sector is much worse than the others, to nobody's surprise I'm sure). I think this has definitely been a rapidly growing problem over the past 8-10 years. The new circular should improve the problem of security of hours but it doesn't tackle the problem of hours in itself.

It would be very interesting to see some good stats on unemployment too though.

gaeilgebeo · 07-07-2015 8:00pm

I would absolutely hate to be job hunting at the minute.
NPTs have my full sympathy.
It has to be the most soul destroying thing, to try get your foot in the door somewhere only to have the door constantly slammed in your face.

NufcNavan · 07-07-2015 8:45pm

Right now it's a double edged sword.

There are very few jobs advertised at the moment, and the already long Summers are even longer when you're unemployed, broke and applying for any hours you can find, usually in vein.

rainbowtrout · 07-07-2015 10:35pm

It's hard to put an exact figure on it I'd say. A teacher working a measly hours contract is classed as employed, but it's not enough to live on, and if all those small hours contracts were combined as far as possible in schools then there would be more teachers unemployed. Plenty doing the dip too and not getting jobs so they go away and work at something else.

If it was possible even to take a snapshot of what is going on with graduates say from 2015 from all the teacher training degrees, all the PME students, Hibernia etc. and see how many of them have a job in September.

Break it down into contracted hours (own hours) 18-22, 11-18, <11; maternity and sick leaves; casual subbing; employed but not in education; unemployed.

It would give a more realistic view of employment prospects in teaching.

Of course none of the third level colleges are going to publish those stats. The PME is a big money spinner for them.

DK man · 07-07-2015 10:54pm

Teaching is one of the worst options any young person could consider.

I'm now cid but you will be treated like absolute dung by the system if u are a young enthusiastic teacher......

I worked with a young girl about 6 years ago she was in our school for a few years dong maternity leave and sick leave etc... Hadn't seen her for @6 years and was shocked to see her back again - for a few days filling in... This girl qualified about 12 years ago! And she is still on the abusive sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring merry go round...

The unions are a disgrace - apart from your money they don't give a sh1 t about part time teachers... A big disgrace. Teaching in Ireland is going down the British route where teachers seem to bail out after a few years.

I'm now cid but only after years of being fc uked about - i have spent hours in staff rooms waiting to be called for a few classes - scraps! Can u imagine a Garda or nurse waiting around at the work stations to see if it gets busy and they are needed? Bull crap - their unions would never allow such exploitation....

I'm too far in the system now to head off and I have mortgage etc to keep me clamped - but if u are a smart young person with a good leaving cert..... Don't bother putting yourself through 10 years of exploitation for the chance of a job when you will be well paid elsewhere and valued

evolving_doors · 07-07-2015 11:17pm

Scott Tart Passenger wrote: »

See the Ward Report for the statistics on teachers' contracts - those without CID, working part time etc. Very comprehensive. That gives a good picture of the huge scale of the problem of underemployment, and shows the break down across sectors (hint: one sector is much worse than the others, to nobody's surprise I'm sure). I think this has definitely been a rapidly growing problem over the past 8-10 years. The new circular should improve the problem of security of hours but it doesn't tackle the problem of hours in itself.

It would be very interesting to see some good stats on unemployment too though.

That's the nub of it really. It's ironic to hear Joan Burton laying it on heavy to Dunnes Stores owners but not a whit to dept. of education on the hours culture.

Whatever you may say about the UK system, from what I know they don't have this 'hours' nonsense.

i'm just amazed people still want to 'get into teaching'. It really is becoming a vocation.

Heydeldel · 07-07-2015 11:17pm

I'm three years out of the dip (not long compared to some here, I know) , I've given myself a deadline. If I don't have work by October/November this year I'll cut my loses and work at something else.

So many people here advise jobseekers to 'hang in there' but should we be more realistic and change track?

rainbowtrout · 07-07-2015 11:23pm

Heydeldel wrote: »

I'm three years out of the dip (not long compared to some here, I know) , I've given myself a deadline. If I don't have work by October/November this year I'll cut my loses and work at something else.

So many people here advise jobseekers to 'hang in there' but should we be more realistic and change track?

Honestly I don't anymore. When my LC students ask me about teaching sadly I have to say 'consider another career'.

There are other jobs out there with better pay and less stress and if said job is offered, full hours. No working 6 hours a week ****e and being made to feel like you should feel grateful for having enough hours to pay the same as the dole.

It must be hard for anyone who has recently qualified as a teacher and does want to teach, but the employment conditions are not attractive enough anymore.

gaiscioch · 08-07-2015 1:02am

I've asked before how many researchers the ASTI/TUI have because it is vital that our negotiators have stats on what's happening.

On DPA/data protection grounds alone, I don't know if the unions would be able to trace, say, the whereabouts of all people who completed teacher qualification in the past, say, 15 years (There were about 240 students in my year).

If all students registered for their course with a PPS, it should be easy enough to trace their current whereabouts and because they aren't being named maybe the DPA wouldn't apply?

Going on property prices alone, I'd be fairly certain there are far fewer people on part-time hour contracts for the past 15 years in Dublin - unless their accommodation is free or they have a trust fund.

rainbowtrout · 08-07-2015 9:51pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

I've asked before how many researchers the ASTI/TUI have because it is vital that our negotiators have stats on what's happening.

On DPA/data protection grounds alone, I don't know if the unions would be able to trace, say, the whereabouts of all people who completed teacher qualification in the past, say, 15 years (There were about 240 students in my year).

If all students registered for their course with a PPS, it should be easy enough to trace their current whereabouts and because they aren't being named maybe the DPA wouldn't apply?

Going on property prices alone, I'd be fairly certain there are far fewer people on part-time hour contracts for the past 15 years in Dublin - unless their accommodation is free or they have a trust fund.

Colleges wouldn't have the right to give out student information to the unions even if they have it.

Under DPA they can only use data for their own purposes, so contacting current and former students, can't pass on your PPS/contact details to outside party.

Even if they did, unions would have to trace those people through Revenue/Dept of Social Welfare. That's not going to happen either.

There are (anecdotally) far fewer people on part time hours in Dublin, but that's where most movement in jobs is. People take jobs in Dublin to get experience, but then want to move home/move somewhere cheaper. Even the job swap thread on here tends to be people looking to get out of Dublin and looking for a swap, which to be honest is unlikely.

r93kaey5p2izun · 08-07-2015 10:30pm

Really? In my experience part time hours are just as prevalent in Dublin and surrounding counties!

Wanderer78 · 08-07-2015 11:16pm

two of my cousins(teachers) fecked off ta abu dhabi couple of years ago. havent looked back since. sad to see theres still a serious problem here

gaiscioch · 09-07-2015 12:56am

Scott Tart Passenger wrote: »

Really? In my experience part time hours are just as prevalent in Dublin and surrounding counties!

How can they afford Dublin rents on part-time hours? The teachers I know who have been on part-time hours in Dublin for years all live with their parents. Teachers from outside Dublin generally can't afford to be on part-time hours for years in Dublin.

r93kaey5p2izun · 09-07-2015 2:00am

gaiscioch wrote: »

How can they afford Dublin rents on part-time hours? The teachers I know who have been on part-time hours in Dublin for years all live with their parents. Teachers from outside Dublin generally can't afford to be on part-time hours for years in Dublin.

They house share or they commute long distances.

evolving_doors · 09-07-2015 7:46am

gaiscioch wrote: »

How can they afford Dublin rents on part-time hours? The teachers I know who have been on part-time hours in Dublin for years all live with their parents. Teachers from outside Dublin generally can't afford to be on part-time hours for years in Dublin.

Yup ... live with parents or supporting partner. I do know of a few that have just enough hours to stay above water on their own.

hdipdilemma · 09-07-2015 9:14am

I commuted to Dublin from Longford for 2 years and I know of 4 other post primary teachers who are doing the same and have been for many years

katydid · 11-07-2015 10:55pm

DK man wrote: »

...

The unions are a disgrace - apart from your money they don't give a sh1 t about part time teachers... A big disgrace. Teaching in Ireland is going down the British route where teachers seem to bail out after a few years.

d

What do you suggest the unions do? When I started teaching in 1981 part time teachers had absolutely nothing. No CID's, no pro rata. They just picked up work as it turned up and signed on during the holidays. There are still teachers in that situation, but far less, because the unions have got agreements on CID contracts, and improved terms and conditions for part time teachers in other ways. So what else do you want them to do? And what are you doing about it from within the union?

katydid · 11-07-2015 11:00pm

Heydeldel wrote: »

I'm three years out of the dip (not long compared to some here, I know) , I've given myself a deadline. If I don't have work by October/November this year I'll cut my loses and work at something else.

So many people here advise jobseekers to 'hang in there' but should we be more realistic and change track?

It took me ten years to get a proper job, and that was back in the eighties. If you really want to teach, you'll stick at it; part time, night classes, teaching TEFL in the summer, working in grind schools. Even going abroad, as I had to do. It will pay off in the end, if you stick at it. But you have to want to...

katydid · 11-07-2015 11:01pm

Scott Tart Passenger wrote: »

Really? In my experience part time hours are just as prevalent in Dublin and surrounding counties!

Yes, but living costs are higher, so it's harder to keep your head above water.

r93kaey5p2izun · 11-07-2015 11:07pm

katydid wrote: »

Yes, but living costs are higher, so it's harder to keep your head above water.

Yes I know only too well. I live and work in Dublin on part time hours, which are, in my experience, just as prevalent in Dublin.

I understand your comment re sticking at teaching but things have changed since the 80s. Casualisation nowadays means sticking at it won't necessarily get you any more than part time hours. That's all that's on offer in large sections of teaching no matter what you do. Many part timers today are well past ten years trying at this stage. I think it's wise to look at other options and be realistic.

katydid · 11-07-2015 11:17pm

Scott Tart Passenger wrote: »

Yes I know only too well. I live and work in Dublin on part time hours, which are, in my experience, just as prevalent in Dublin.

I understand your comment re sticking at teaching but things have changed since the 80s. Casualisation nowadays means sticking at it won't necessarily get you any more than part time hours. That's all that's on offer in large sections of teaching no matter what you do. Many part timers today are well past ten years trying at this stage. I think it's wise to look at other options and be realistic.

I do appreciate that things are different now in terms of getting secure employment at the end. But I believe that you either have teaching in your gut or not, and if you have, it's worth sticking at. If you give up,and settle for something else, you might regret it in the long term. Of course it depends on your personal circumstances; we don't all have the luxury of choice, but if it can be financially possible, and if you really want to teach, it is worth considering sticking at it.

Wexford96 · 16-07-2015 10:36am

Hi.
Would anyone be able to tell me if there is a website which advertises secondary teaching positions. I've seen educationposts.ie but it seems to be mostly primary positions. Does Secondary have a definite website which schools, VECs etc use for hiring?
Thanks.

mtoutlemonde · 16-07-2015 10:47am

Wexford96 wrote: »

Hi.
Would anyone be able to tell me if there is a website which advertises secondary teaching positions. I've seen educationposts.ie but it seems to be mostly primary positions. Does Secondary have a definite website which schools, VECs etc use for hiring?
Thanks.

Educationposts is the most used - go to the home page and change the sector to second level.

The Bogman · 16-07-2015 1:32pm

Wexford96 wrote:

Hi. Would anyone be able to tell me if there is a website which advertises secondary teaching positions. I've seen educationposts.ie but it seems to be mostly primary positions. Does Secondary have a definite website which schools, VECs etc use for hiring? Thanks.

There are v few 2nd level jobs advertised on edposts recently,mainly because it's July....a month ago there were over 1000 2nd level jobs on it....granted a lot probably readvertisements

gaiscioch · 16-07-2015 1:40pm

Wexford96 wrote: »

Hi.
Would anyone be able to tell me if there is a website which advertises secondary teaching positions. I've seen educationposts.ie but it seems to be mostly primary positions. Does Secondary have a definite website which schools, VECs etc use for hiring?
Thanks.

Educationposts it is, although now and again an odd real job in Ireland comes up on educationcareers, which is really recruiting for the yellow pack English system. I'd also check each of the VEC/ETB vacancy websites because they, too, are not putting all their vacancies on a centralised website.

Publicjobs.ie also has 2nd level jobs, although usually at higher levels like principal/deputy principal/inspector, etc (I think I also saw vacancies in the European Schools there a few months ago). On publicjobs you can search by keyword like "education" or "teach", which saves a lot of time.

In sharp contrast, on educationposts.ie the whizzkids will not allow you to search all of Ireland in one go (they used to), and they won't allow you to search by your subject, so best of luck searching each of the 32 counties separately for a job!

Mardy Bum · 16-07-2015 2:23pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Educationposts it is, although now and again an odd real job in Ireland comes up on educationcareers, which is really recruiting for the yellow pack English system. I'd also check each of the VEC/ETB vacancy websites because they, too, are not putting all their vacancies on a centralised website.

Publicjobs.ie also has 2nd level jobs, although usually at higher levels like principal/deputy principal/inspector, etc (I think I also saw vacancies in the European Schools there a few months ago). On publicjobs you can search by keyword like "education" or "teach", which saves a lot of time.

In sharp contrast, on educationposts.ie the whizzkids will not allow you to search all of Ireland in one go (they used to), and they won't allow you to search by your subject, so best of luck searching each of the 32 counties separately for a job!

You can go through your emails either.

Corkgirl18 · 18-07-2015 2:11pm

I just graduated this June as a secondary school teacher. The above posts are quite hard to read for someone whose just graduated.
Its a pity we weren't told anything about the job situation while we were in college..

mtoutlemonde · 18-07-2015 2:15pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

I just graduated this June as a secondary school teacher. The above posts are quite hard to read for someone whose just graduated.
Its a pity we weren't told anything about the job situation while we were in college..

Why would they? They don't care about you after your studies? When I did my PGDE a few years ago we were told on the first day that there were loads of jobs but on the day we finished we were told most of us would find it difficult to find work.

Crazyteacher · 18-07-2015 3:06pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

I just graduated this June as a secondary school teacher. The above posts are quite hard to read for someone whose just graduated.
Its a pity we weren't told anything about the job situation while we were in college..

They didn't tell you before you entered the course how bad it is. And has been for quite some time!

GSOIRL · 18-07-2015 3:55pm

Even the ones lucky enough to get work are being treated unequally by being put on a much lower pay scale.

evolving_doors · 18-07-2015 4:25pm

GSOIRL wrote: »

Even the ones lucky enough to get work are being treated unequally by being put on a much lower pay scale.

just wondering, but did anyone from any union come in to talk to ye at the end?

clunked · 18-07-2015 6:00pm

Crazyteacher wrote: »

They didn't tell you before you entered the course how bad it is. And has been for quite some time!

Why would the education departments of the colleges talk themselves out of a job, or no business for Hibernian College either.

katydid · 18-07-2015 6:24pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

I just graduated this June as a secondary school teacher. The above posts are quite hard to read for someone whose just graduated.
Its a pity we weren't told anything about the job situation while we were in college..

Maybe they assume you read the newspapers and watch the news on tv...

mtoutlemonde · 18-07-2015 6:44pm

katydid wrote: »

Maybe they assume you read the newspapers and watch the news on tv...

Yes and research before you start a course. The employment situation was every bit as bad four/five years ago.

spurious · 18-07-2015 7:30pm

The 'in a few years' it was going to be all much better is now here and it's as bad if not worse. Only difference is we now have hundreds more qualified teachers.

janes1234 · 19-07-2015 12:53pm

Corkgirl18 wrote:

I just graduated this June as a secondary school teacher. The above posts are quite hard to read for someone whose just graduated. Its a pity we weren't told anything about the job situation while we were in college..

To be fair its up to you to do that research. Its all over the news.or talk to any teacher out there. The 'we werent told' wont get you much sympathy Im afraid.

GSOIRL · 19-07-2015 1:26pm

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Yes and research before you start a course. The employment situation was every bit as bad four/five years ago.

It might of been just as hard to get a job 4 or 5 years ago but at least when you started you were treated fairly and put on an equal pay scale. For someone who went to college in 2007. 2008, 2009, 2010 to do a 4 year BEd how were they supposed to know that they would be f**cked over and paid so much less when they qualified?

Johngoose · 19-07-2015 1:40pm

The Middle East seems to be the place to teach and I'm not talking about Wexford!:-) Free accommodation and better wages than here.:-)

Johngoose · 19-07-2015 1:49pm

There is an election coming up which may well equal more teaching jobs. But I think that there are far too many teachers being trained every year and far too many already teaching abroad who have to come back one day.I think they should close teacher training colleges for say 4/5 years, to calm the situation. They shut down Templemore and stopped training guards for a number of years, which seems to have allieviated the situation. Long term I think the teaching situation in this country is fcuked

Corkgirl18 · 19-07-2015 5:13pm

Well the recent posts are all super helpful and supportive.. :rolleyes:
I was never looking for sympathy. I was merely expressing an opinion.
Yes, 5 years ago the teaching profession still wasn't fantastic but the unemployment rate was at one of its highest and so all sectors were suffering.
A lot can change in 5 years so it was hard to know if teaching was still going to be as poor. It was also before the new scales and such were implemented.

We were told on our first day that every student our head lecturer taught over the past 5 years was employed. I'm thinking that was probably a lie.

katydid · 19-07-2015 5:33pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Well the recent posts are all super helpful and supportive.. :rolleyes:
I was never looking for sympathy. I was merely expressing an opinion.
Yes, 5 years ago the teaching profession still wasn't fantastic but the unemployment rate was at one of its highest and so all sectors were suffering.
A lot can change in 5 years so it was hard to know if teaching was still going to be as poor. It was also before the new scales and such were implemented.

We were told on our first day that every student our head lecturer taught over the past 5 years was employed. I'm thinking that was probably a lie.

I'm sorry, but you're a third level graduate, looking for a job where you will be broadening the minds of young people - and you say you weren't aware of something the dogs in the street knew. You're not four years old; you don't need third level lecturers to hold your hand and tell you about the real world. The minimum they would expect is that you would have an awareness.
You may be surprised at the reaction you got here, but let's be honest, you kind of brought it on yourself.

Crazyteacher · 19-07-2015 6:35pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Well the recent posts are all super helpful and supportive.. :rolleyes:
I was never looking for sympathy. I was merely expressing an opinion.
Yes, 5 years ago the teaching profession still wasn't fantastic but the unemployment rate was at one of its highest and so all sectors were suffering.
A lot can change in 5 years so it was hard to know if teaching was still going to be as poor. It was also before the new scales and such were implemented.

We were told on our first day that every student our head lecturer taught over the past 5 years was employed. I'm thinking that was probably a lie.

Maybe not employed as teachers. And if in teaching , maybe subbed a day counts to him

mirrorwall14 · 19-07-2015 6:47pm

Sorry but I graduated just before the recession hit and the situation was just as bad then as it is now (albeit with better payscale). However I went into it with my eyes open, well aware that it took an average of 7 years to get a full time job in teaching even at the best pupil teacher ratios. For that reason for example I also followed my head as well as my heart and did a BA even though I had been accepted to the trinity BMUS. I knew my job potential would be limited with only a subject such as music.

Everyone should be doing the research before they go into a career. This has been the situation since the early 2000s. And if you go back further it was the same in the 80s!

katydid · 19-07-2015 6:52pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Sorry but I graduated just before the recession hit and the situation was just as bad then as it is now (albeit with better payscale). However I went into it with my eyes open, well aware that it took an average of 7 years to get a full time job in teaching even at the best pupil teacher ratios. For that reason for example I also followed my head as well as my heart and did a BA even though I had been accepted to the trinity BMUS. I knew my job potential would be limited with only a subject such as music.

Everyone should be doing the research before they go into a career. This has been the situation since the early 2000s. And if you go back further it was the same in the 80s!

I started in college in 77, and did "sensible" subjects, to improve my employability for teaching. Even back then, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. It took me 12 years to get the permanent job. And no CIDs or pro-rata back then; it was the dole queue every Christmas and Easter...

spurious · 19-07-2015 7:23pm

..and Hallowe'en.

We were also spun the yarn about everyone being employed when I was in college in the eighties. It wasn't true then either. I was lucky and only part-time for two years, but then after I was appointed, the next full-time employees in our (large) VEC only came about 8 years later.

katydid · 19-07-2015 8:29pm

spurious wrote: »

..and Hallowe'en.

We were also spun the yarn about everyone being employed when I was in college in the eighties. It wasn't true then either. I was lucky and only part-time for two years, but then after I was appointed, the next full-time employees in our (large) VEC only came about 8 years later.

Summer was teaching Spanish students for me...

We weren't told one way or the other. But my parents were teachers, and I was pretty clued in as to the way things were. And anyway it was pretty obvious if you read the news.

imelle · 19-07-2015 11:17pm

i think the issue is the Hibernia. that never should have been passed. I know a lot of people who are 30-40 + who did the course either in primary and post-primary and now younger people coming through aren't getting work because it is been given to those that are seen as more "mature" and less likely to have to go on a maternity leave in a few years.

rainbowtrout · 19-07-2015 11:33pm

imelle wrote: »

i think the issue is the Hibernia. that never should have been passed. I know a lot of people who are 30-40 + who did the course either in primary and post-primary and now younger people coming through aren't getting work because it is been given to those that are seen as more "mature" and less likely to have to go on a maternity leave in a few years.

And why shouldn't they get the jobs? People who have worked in industry or have a different type of experience can bring a lot to a classroom. Plenty of people in their 30s look for maternity leave. In my experience of teaching far more so than people in their 20s as people are leaving it later to start a family.

Hibernia is only part of the issue. All of the colleges are churning out way too many teaching graduates from the PME and from their teacher training courses. When I graduated from UL in 2000, there was about 30 students in each of the four teacher training courses. Generally graduates were able to find work if they wanted it back then. Now they have more than doubled the numbers on those courses, but the jobs aren't there to sustain that number of graduates, and that's only one college.

Added to that is the number of students applying for and being accepted to the PME with poor subject combinations. Plenty of people on here who only have one teaching subject or have CSPE/SPHE as their second subject, looking for a course they can do to get a second viable subject to make them employable.

mirrorwall14 · 20-07-2015 12:10am

Yeah when I did my PDE in Maynooth there were too many of us to fit in education house lecture hall if everyone showed up. Bit of a hint there was too many of us on the course of we can't fit the theatre of the purpose built education dept...

evolving_doors · 20-07-2015 12:25pm

In fairness though any mention of Teaching issues in the media is typically immediately whitewashed with deflection and strawman arguments about Summer holidays/great pensions/22 hrs work.

Ive yet to hear this topic mentioned without sidetracking. I wouldnt blame anyone for being lured in by the land of milk and honey that teaching is purported to be.

As regards universities churning them out, ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice. Still plenty of courses in creative writing but very few making money. The rubbish that some lecturers spout though is sickening, we were also told about the millions of retirements coming up and how lucky we were!

Number of teachers unemployed

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