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survey finds 49% of Americans believe in a medical conspiracy

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    #92
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    We covered the flaw in this argument before with cancer cures.

    There is not enough money to be made to allow this kind of research ..plain and simple ... not even for generic drug companies
    jh79 wrote: »
    No proof it is worth the cost and effort is more exact.

    There is plenty of proof it could work (if you believe the doctors) If you think its not then show me what research you used that made you reach this conclusion
    jh79 wrote: »
    So which is it? There is evidence that they work

    Correct
    jh79 wrote: »
    or there is no evidence because big pharma won't allow it?

    Sorry ?? who said that where regarding vitamin C?


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    #93
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    There is not enough money to be made to allow this kind of research ..plain and simple ... not even for generic drug companies



    There is plenty of proof it could work (if you believe the doctors) If you think its not then show me what research you used that made you reach this conclusion



    Correct



    Sorry ?? who said that where regarding vitamin C?

    So can you be more specific regarding those herbs with evidence behind them?

    Big Pharma and the Herbal Industry are one and the same eg Pfizer it is not in the herbal industry interests to highlight how ineffective their products are. For example studies in antioxidants showing increased mortality yet the research still gets published because they don't control the whole of the research community.

    One way companies could make money out of herbs for example is the use of analytical techniques to ensure there products contain effective amounts of the active chemical. Variability is always going to be a problem with herbal remedies.

    Another would be the use of patentable delivery systems to overcome Bioavailability issues.

    Take Vit C as an example as pointed out in the blog the potency was poor so the dose needed would be huge.

    Compounds like this never go any further than the lab . They have fallen at the first hurdle.

    Also you'd be surprised how easy it is to develop a compound that stops cancer cell growth in the lab. That in itself is not very impressive.

    Any natural remedies would need to show effectiveness greater than that of the current best treatment otherwise what's the point of bringing it any further?


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    #94
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    So can you be more specific regarding those herbs with evidence behind them?

    It was regarding the vitamin C
    jh79 wrote: »
    Big Pharma and the Herbal Industry are one and the same eg Pfizer it is not in the herbal industry interests to highlight how ineffective their products are. For example studies in antioxidants showing increased mortality yet the research still gets published because they don't control the whole of the research community.

    That goes for supplements not antioxidants in food ... and there are some benefits research found regarding supplements ...

    jh79 wrote: »
    Another would be the use of patentable delivery systems to overcome Bioavailability issues.

    Why does this needs to be patent-able ? and what system where you thinking of
    jh79 wrote: »
    Take Vit C as an example as pointed out in the blog the potency was poor so the dose needed would be huge.

    Compounds like this never go any further than the lab . They have fallen at the first hurdle.

    Also you'd be surprised how easy it is to develop a compound that stops cancer cell growth in the lab. That in itself is not very impressive.

    I repeat ... There is no profit to be made so Big pharma are not investing in it
    jh79 wrote: »
    Any natural remedies would need to show effectiveness greater than that of the current best treatment otherwise what's the point of bringing it any further?

    Uhh the possible elimination of the horrendous side effects maybe ...

    The plus side is that you can use natural products/remedies to prevent cancer (brocolli etc) and there re plenty more available


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    #95
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Weissess, do you know why cancer drugs have so many side effects?

    Also are you honestly saying there is no such thing as naturally occurring toxic substance?


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    #96
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Also if your suggesting Vit C as a plausible treatment can you point out the flaws in the blogs arguments?


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    #97
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Also if your suggesting Vit C as a plausible treatment can you point out the flaws in the blogs arguments?

    Read this and tell me where you find the CT

    http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20140205/intravenous-vitamin-c-may-boost-chemos-cancer-fighting-power


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    #98
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Read this and tell me where you find the CT

    http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20140205/intravenous-vitamin-c-may-boost-chemos-cancer-fighting-power

    There isn't one the results are not impressive enough to warrant investment even if you could patent it.

    Final paragraph of science based medicine link explains this already.

    Could you read from "Lindaus Pauling Vindicated or not" onwards and then explain the conspiracy again,


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    #99
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    There isn't one the results are not impressive enough to warrant investment even if you could patent it.

    Where did you get that nonsense from ?

    This is in the Article
    You have to do a bigger study with patients and look at outcomes. You also have to make sure these treatments don't interfere with the treatments we're giving currently," she said. "There may be some efficacy in what they're doing. It just needs to be proven. This is just the start of more studies looking at this in-depth."

    Dr. Michael Seiden, chief medical officer for The US Oncology Network, agreed.


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    #100
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Where did you get that nonsense from ?

    This is in the Article

    The average cancer drug has a dose in mg, industrial quantities through IV are needed so it isn't particularly potent.

    "However, this will not be easy, given that the sheer mass and volume of ascorbate that must be administered and the very high concentrations that are required even in the best case scenario could easily interfere with other chemotherapeutic agents."

    Remember it is used in conjunction with chemo not on its own.

    So would you risk a fortune given there are more potent substances out there?

    Read the blog it is all explained better than i possibly could.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/high-dose-vitamin-c-and-cancer-has-linus-pauling-been-vindicated/


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    #101
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    The average cancer drug has a dose in mg, industrial quantities through IV are needed so it isn't particularly potent.

    "However, this will not be easy, given that the sheer mass and volume of ascorbate that must be administered and the very high concentrations that are required even in the best case scenario could easily interfere with other chemotherapeutic agents."

    Remember it is used in conjunction with chemo not on its own.

    So would you risk a fortune given there are more potent substances out there?

    Read the blog it is all explained better than i possibly could.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/high-dose-vitamin-c-and-cancer-has-linus-pauling-been-vindicated/

    Where are they discussing Vit C ?


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    #102
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Where are they discussing Vit C ?

    The entire article?


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    #103
    PolaroidPizza
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭PolaroidPizza


    its easy for us to criticise the yanks in their distrust of big pharma, but we don't get ads for every medication possible pushed down out throats around every corner like they do. This country thankfully has some restrictions on the marketing of medications. It's probable that were we constantly barraged by ads from every pharmaceutical giant every single commercial break, we might start coming up with a lot more conspiracies of our own.


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    #104
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    The entire article?

    Had the wrong article in front of me :o


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    #105
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,233 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Among all these natural herbs that don't work, are you including cannabis and opium?


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    #106
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    looksee wrote: »
    Among all these natural herbs that don't work, are you including cannabis and opium?

    In their natural forms, yes.

    As i said earlier if there are more than 20000 natural remedies available saying that 99% don't work or there is no evidence that they work isn't being unfair. I doubt anyone could name more than 10 never mind 200.


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    #107
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    More from Science Based Medicine this time on Cannabis

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-1-the-politics-of-weed-versus-science/

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-2-cannabis-does-not-cure-cancer/


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    #108
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    In their natural forms, yes.

    As i said earlier if there are more than 20000 natural remedies available saying that 99% don't work or there is no evidence that they work isn't being unfair. I doubt anyone could name more than 10 never mind 200.

    Are you pulling these numbers out of the sky or do you have some research to back up these numbers ?


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    #109
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    More from Science Based Medicine this time on Cannabis

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-1-the-politics-of-weed-versus-science/

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-2-cannabis-does-not-cure-cancer/

    All aproved by skeptic by design Mr Gorski ... Very one sided

    I can post Blog after Blog stating these things are working ...


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    #110
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    All aproved by skeptic by design Mr Gorski ... Very one sided

    I can post Blog after Blog stating these things are working ...

    Is he wrong? If so how?


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    #111
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Are you pulling these numbers out of the sky or do you have some research to back up these numbers ?

    A review from 2008 claimed at least 20000. I could try and find it again but don't see the relevance.


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    #112
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    A review from 2008 claimed at least 20000. I could try and find it again but don't see the relevance.

    Would be interesting to see that review


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    #113
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Is he wrong? If so how?

    He posts them he is not the author AFAIK


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    #114
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    He posts them he is not the author AFAIK

    I know that but are his interpretations of the research valid in your opinion and if not why?


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    #115
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Would be interesting to see that review

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2517879/


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    #116
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2517879/

    Here we go again
    Herbal products are not likely to become an important alternative to standard medical therapies unless there are changes to the regulation, standardization, and funding for research of these products.


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    #117
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    I know that but are his interpretations of the research valid in your opinion and if not why?

    No ... He fails to mention other research done by professionals that state the opposite


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    #118
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    No ... He fails to mention other research done by professionals that state the opposite

    Research needs to be repeatable, it is one of the most important aspects of research.


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    #119
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Research needs to be repeatable, it is one of the most important aspects of research.

    I did not mention it was not repeatable .. I dont know if that research was not repeatable

    But I think we are going in circles again :D


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    #120
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Here we go again

    So you agree they are not an alternative to medicine as it stands?


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    #121
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    So you agree they are not an alternative to medicine as it stands?

    Ohh god no ... Mostly working with or used preventive and some can be used instead ... But an alternative for all medicine as it stands I think not


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