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survey finds 49% of Americans believe in a medical conspiracy

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    #62
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Is that why they Banned st Johnsworth ?

    It has some indications of beneficial effects but has some toxicity issues. I think it interacts with the pill and was there an irish study about its toxicity?

    So wouldn't you agree it needs to be regulated?


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    #63
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    weisses wrote: »
    Ohh I dont take it personal I do however have my reservations with this survey

    Specially because there are actual medical conspiracies out there

    There is so much money and various interests involved in medicine it would be vey naive to think there are no conspiracies going on ...

    This.... You need only look at the private lobby groups in the USA to see that many things that may sound crazy are quite possible. read fast food nation and tell me that rolling back regulation that clearly encourages more healthy eating is the government doing right by its people.

    Some people are just far too naieve and accepting of the world they grow up learning about. People accept what they are told and get comfort from thinking that the whole system runs as it should...

    Many conspiracies are ridiculous but many are quite plausible. You don't have to agree with most conspiracy theories but To not have a healthy cynicism is to be truely naive.


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    #64
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Is that why they Banned st Johnsworth ?

    Perscription only actually.

    Seeing as it interacts with a host of drugs , some used for very serious illnesses , it seems reasonable that a Doctor should see your medical records first to ensure it is safe to take.


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    #65
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Perscription only actually.

    Seeing as it interacts with a host of drugs , some used for very serious illnesses , it seems reasonable that a Doctor should see your medical records first to ensure it is safe to take.

    But its natural .. It shouldn't work


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    #66
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    enno99 wrote: »
    The above quote comes from Linus Pauling, Ph.D, and two time Nobel Prize winner in chemistry
    For a start, there is no evidence that Pauling ever made that statement. And if he did, he's been dead for 21 years and out of the science game for 30. So generously, that statement was made 30 years ago.

    Pauling also famously devoted his time to a belief that vitamin C could cure cancer because of its ability to boost the immune system.

    This is most likely because Pauling was most active during the early days of cancer research; times when at least we knew we could start treating it, but very much in the dark about the who, whats and whys of it. Thus anything and everything seemed like a potential treatment.

    People were very frustrated in the 1980s about cancer research because progress seemed painfully slow, and was also massively overshadowed by AIDS research.

    We know now however, that progress was slow because cancer doesn't have a single cause, and cannot be grouped and isolated for treatment. There are thousands of cancers, each with their own cause (or multiple causes) and courses of treatment.


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    #67
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    weisses wrote: »
    But its natural .. It shouldn't work
    Practically all medicine is "natural", in that it derived from chemicals either first discovered or extracted from natural sources.

    There are very very few medicines that have arisen out of artificially synthesised substances.


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    #68
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    But its natural .. It shouldn't work

    So we are at 99.995% don't work .

    Do you approve of its use for mild depression?


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    #69
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    jh79 wrote: »
    Some extra reading on Pauling

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/high-dose-vitamin-c-and-cancer-has-linus-pauling-been-vindicated/


    David H. Gorski is an American surgical oncologist, Professor of surgery at Wayne State University School of Medicine,[1] and a surgical oncologist at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute, specializing in breast cancer surgery.[2] He is a critic of alternative medicine and the anti-vaccination movement. He is the author of a blog, Respectful Insolence,[3] and is the managing editor of the website, Science-Based Medicine.[4][5]

    V

    Linus Carl Pauling (February 28, 1901 – August 19, 1994)[4] was an American chemist, biochemist, peace activist, author, and educator. He published more than 1200 papers and books, of which about 850 dealt with scientific topics.[5] New Scientist reportedly called him one of the 20 greatest scientists of all time,[6] and as of 2000, he was rated the 16th most important scientist in history.[7] Pauling was one of the founders of the fields of quantum chemistry and molecular biology.[8]

    Jesus its hard to read that obnoxious prick Gorski
    Ok maybe Pauling didnt have all the answers at the time but if it was such pseudoscience and he was a crank as Gorski put it why are they continuing with this type of research

    Laboratory studies

    Many laboratory studies have been done to find out how high-dose vitamin C may cause the death of cancer cells. The anticancer effect of vitamin C in different types of cancer cells involves a chemical reaction that makes hydrogen peroxide, which may kill cancer cells.

    Laboratory studies have shown the following:

    Treatment with high-dose vitamin C slowed the growth and spread of prostate, pancreatic, liver, colon, malignant mesothelioma, neuroblastoma, and other types of cancer cells.

    http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/vitamin-c-pdq#section/_1



    LINUS PAULING VINDICATED; RESEARCHERS CLAIM RDA FOR VITAMIN C IS FLAWED

    http://backpainlower.longbeachchiropractic.net/researchers-question-government-recommended-daily-allowance-rda-for-vitamin-c/


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    #70
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    So we are at 99.995% don't work .

    Do you approve of its use for mild depression?

    You can put in all the percentages that makes you happy/comfortable

    It doesn't need my approval .... Its something natural un-patented that works and is now only available via prescription ... :o


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    #71
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    So are his arguments in the blog flawed in any way?


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    #72
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    You can put in all the percentages that makes you happy/comfortable

    It doesn't need my approval .... Its something natural un-patented that works and is now only available via prescription ... :o

    So you have no issue with the use of a pharmacologically active substance with serious adverse effects for the treatment of an illness that could also be treated with lifestyle changes??

    You have officially crossed over to the dark side!!

    Oh and if you are applying Cochrane levels of evidence your back to zero again!


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    #73
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    So you have no issue with the use of a pharmacologically active substance with serious adverse effects for the treatment of an illness that could also be treated with lifestyle changes??

    I have not ... I do however also believe in natural remedies

    jh79 wrote: »
    Oh and if you are applying Cochrane levels of evidence your back to zero again!

    Ohh the poor pro fluoridation lobby must be gutted so ?


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    #74
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    I have not ... I do however also believe in natural remedies




    Ohh the poor pro fluoridation lobby must be gutted so ?

    So have you looked into the evidence behind herbal remedies?


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    #75
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    So have you looked into the evidence behind herbal remedies?

    Yes of some I did ... which can be found online ... I presume you checked them out as well ?


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    #76
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Yes of some I did ... which can be found online ... I presume you checked them out as well ?

    A small bit , so where does your belief in them come from? The evidence out there certainly shouldn't lead to the conclusion that they are a viable option.


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    #77
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    jh79 wrote: »
    So are his arguments in the blog flawed in any way?

    I don't know I'm no scientist

    But if his argument is based on Mayo Clinic trials which didnt use the same methods
    What do you think ?

    Ultimately the negative findings of the Mayo Clinic studies ended general interest in vitamin C as a treatment for cancer.[145] Despite this, Pauling continued to promote vitamin C for treating cancer and the common cold, working with The Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential to use vitamin C in the treatment of brain-injured children.[148] He later collaborated with the Canadian physician Abram Hoffer on a micronutrient regime, including high-dose vitamin C, as adjunctive cancer therapy.[149] A 2009 review also noted differences between the studies, such as the Mayo clinic not using intravenous Vitamin C, and suggested further studies into the role of vitamin C when given intravenously.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling


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    #78
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    enno99 wrote: »
    I don't know I'm no scientist

    But if his argument is based on Mayo Clinic trials which didnt use the same methods
    What do you think ?

    Ultimately the negative findings of the Mayo Clinic studies ended general interest in vitamin C as a treatment for cancer.[145] Despite this, Pauling continued to promote vitamin C for treating cancer and the common cold, working with The Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential to use vitamin C in the treatment of brain-injured children.[148] He later collaborated with the Canadian physician Abram Hoffer on a micronutrient regime, including high-dose vitamin C, as adjunctive cancer therapy.[149] A 2009 review also noted differences between the studies, such as the Mayo clinic not using intravenous Vitamin C, and suggested further studies into the role of vitamin C when given intravenously.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling

    I'd hold off on claiming vit c as a natural treatment for cancer until there was some convincing evidence.


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    #79
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Also the blogs covers the flaws with the intravenous study.


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    #80
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    jh79 wrote: »
    I'd hold off on claiming vit c as a natural treatment for cancer until there was some convincing evidence.

    Ok but that wasn't the question

    Is Gorski,s blog flawed ?

    Did he not spot the differences between the studies he seems so proficient in spotting errors in other studies when they suit him

    But he decided to heap ridicule on an eminent scientist all the same


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    #81
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    jh79 wrote: »
    Also the blogs covers the flaws with the intravenous study.

    The blog is dated 2008 the review was 2009


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    #82
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    enno99 wrote: »
    Ok but that wasn't the question

    Is Gorski,s blog flawed ?

    Did he not spot the differences between the studies he seems so proficient in spotting errors in other studies when they suit him

    But he decided to heap ridicule on an eminent scientist all the same

    Are you saying Pauling should be immune from criticisms no matter how obviously justifiable it is?


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    #83
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    enno99 wrote: »
    The blog is dated 2008 the review was 2009

    The study was prior to 2009.


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    #84
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    I'd hold off on claiming vit c as a natural treatment for cancer until there was some convincing evidence.

    that could take a while
    But it's been hard to attract funding for further research. There's no reason for pharmaceutical companies to fund vitamin C research, and federal officials have been uninterested in plowing research dollars into the effort since the Mayo research was published, Drisko said.

    http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20140205/intravenous-vitamin-c-may-boost-chemos-cancer-fighting-power


    There is no money to be made


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    #85
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    jh79 wrote: »
    The study was prior to 2009.

    Am I missing something here a 1985 experiment using Vitamin C in IV administration. on a patient with kidney disease (like I said im no scientist )
    caused renal failure

    And Gorski includes it in his attack on Pauling
    Did Pauling advocate using it on patients with this dissease ?

    I think Gorski did notice the differences in the Mayo Clinic studies and Paulings


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    #86
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    that could take a while



    http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20140205/intravenous-vitamin-c-may-boost-chemos-cancer-fighting-power


    There is no money to be made

    Generic drug companies do ok on stuff that has no patent.

    No proof it is worth the cost and effort is more exact.


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    #87
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    enno99 wrote: »
    Am I missing something here a 1985 experiment using Vitamin C in IV administration. on a patient with kidney disease (like I said im no scientist )
    caused renal failure

    And Gorski includes it in his attack on Pauling
    Did Pauling advocate using it on patients with this dissease ?

    I think Gorski did notice the differences in the Mayo Clinic studies and Paulings

    Sorry not sure what point your trying to make?

    Have another read of the blog it explains the flaws with the intravenous studies.


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    #88
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Generic drug companies do ok on stuff that has no patent.

    No proof it is worth the cost and effort is more exact.


    Your joking right ?


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    #89
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    jh79 wrote: »

    Have another read of the blog it explains the flaws with the intravenous studies.

    Which ones the ones conducted by the Mayo Clinic ?


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    #90
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Your joking right ?

    We covered the flaw in this argument before with cancer cures.

    So which is it? There is evidence that they work or there is no evidence because big pharma won't allow it?


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    #91
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    that could take a while



    http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20140205/intravenous-vitamin-c-may-boost-chemos-cancer-fighting-power


    There is no money to be made

    Here is the blog on the same conspiracy around hidden cancer cures.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-hidden-cancer-cure/


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