Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

lizzyman · 17-07-2015 08:25PM

Muckracker wrote: »

Not a bad idea.

What are you, a time traveler from apartheid era South Africa?

Muckracker · 17-07-2015 08:25PM

lizzyman wrote: »

What are you, a time traveler from apartheid era South Africa?

Yes.

Tombi! · 17-07-2015 08:37PM

Mod: Muckracker is now banned'

drunkmonkey · 17-07-2015 09:31PM

seamus wrote: »

No, because then you'd have men and women changing in the same area anyway.

The solution is to get rid of gender segregation completely. Take existing changing rooms, make one the "changing room" that's open and full of lockers as they are right now, and the other is the "changing cubicles", where you can go take up a private cubicle so your sensitivities aren't hurt and you don't accidentally see someone else naked. And anyone can choose to use either.

When the queues start forming for the cubicles, people will just start using the changing room.

They all think your loosing your mind and the country isn't ready for it but we alread have them : )

Ive completely changed my mind on the whole issue...not worried in the slightest theres a lot more to be worried about..

Dimithy · 17-07-2015 10:00PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's really becoming ridiculous at this stage and frankly, I'm getting tired of the constant complaining from people who are offended over nothing... especially those who spend their time being offended on others behalf!

The one's complaining, and being offended in this case are the ones who have a problem with transgender people...

teemxxts · 17-07-2015 10:11PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's a problem with self identification and subjective reality vs consensual reality.

The problem is that you are bigot. You cannot accept reality beyond your narrow vision. Only your view of the world. However distorted and perverse it may be.

You are the reason I once stood on an edge and thought 'three seconds and it's over'.

Oh yes you are clever with your subjective and clever arguments. Whoop de doo well done.

Can you possibly understand how difficult it is to cope with the reality that your internal self is at odds to your physical self? You cannot of course because you cannot tolerate the idea that life is not so black and white.

That makes you a bigot and what's most sickening is that you actually think you're being reasonable.

You and people like you make me sick. Go and live your life and leave us alone.

teemxxts · 17-07-2015 10:34PM

For all you people who seem to think you have a valid opinion on this subject. Keep in mind you are dealing with real people here. People like me who have struggled with this for years. I'm not mentally ill, far from it. I ignored or minimised this forever just like the now famous Kaitlynn Jenner.

I will never transition mostly because of bigots like you. I could not cope with the intolerance the judgement the sneering.

Many transgender people kill themselves others hide it. Only the few are brave enough
to come out and expose themselves to ridicule.

Yes zenerilli, drunk monkey and the rest of you heroes you have put us in our place.

Well done bigots. Sleep well.

Knex* · 17-07-2015 10:55PM

I thought I was quite a progressive minded person, genuinely, until I read this thread. Perhaps I never thought much about transgender issues, and hence why I've met a mental stumbling block when it comes to this.

For me, it doesn't bother me what you identify as or how you live your life. We should all have the same rights regardless. Born a male but later identify as a female, or vice versa. Grand. I can't even remotely comprehend the emotional journey that might have been, and I can only empathise. Its not easy growing up full stop, I can't imagine the process involved with something that is relatively rare in society, and still somewhat taboo, such as being trans, and the realisation of that, and coming to terms with being so.

And perhaps that's where this is a good thing. Only with progression like this will we remove that sense of taboo and raise some positive awareness. I mean for one thing, it has me properly thinking about it and challenging my own preconceptions right now.

I have to admit though, I'm very much struggling with the self declaration that you are now 100% male or 100% female. Like I said, I can't even remotely comprehend the process or the emotional state of mind involved for transgender people, so perhaps that's where I'm failing.

To reiterate, I feel you have the right to tell me that you're a man or woman and that be that, but I feel like there's certain scenarios where I would absolutely want to know if you were in fact transgender. Things such as getting into a relationship or playing sports. Perhaps I'm being a bit backwards with my thought process here, I honestly don't know. But even taking the Sport angle, and because of the different physical nature of a born male, a transgender woman would have quite an unfair advantage over her competition. Perhaps even an unsafe one if the sport was MMA or UFC.

I read the first few pages of the thread (100 posts a page) and my initial thoughts were certainly challenged, so I'll have to go back and read some more and think a bit more critically on this. Its probable that many of my points were brought up in the pages I've yet to read, so my apologies on that also, especially if they've been done to death.

wendell borton · 17-07-2015 11:04PM

This is all fine and good if your cis or trans but what about optical isomers?

OneOfThem · 17-07-2015 11:05PM

I consider MtF transsexuals to be MtF (or FtM - visa versa etc) transsexuals, rather than females (or males) .. No problem with them. No problem with them having whatever they want on their birth cert. Or using whatever bathroom they want. Or anything else. I'd use female pronounes with or about them in the same way I'd call a lads that was christened Garfunkel, Gary, if that's what he wanted to be called. Why would I do anything other? But I don't consider them female because there are very clear differentiating differences. How's that play? I'm curious. (if any trans- gender people would be so kind as to reply that'd be cool) .

Knex* · 17-07-2015 11:08PM

OneOfThem wrote: »

I consider MtF transsexuals to be MtF transsexuals, rather than females.. No problem with them. No problem with them having whatever they want on their birth cert. Or using whatever bathroom they want. Or anything else. I'd use female pronounes with or about them in the same way I'd call a lads that was christened Garfunkel, Gary, if that's what he wanted to be called. Why would I do anything other? But I don't consider them female because there are very clear differentiating differences. How's that play? I'm curious.

Pretty much how I thought until I read this thread.

Now I'm not sure and I have a headache.

Abe Simpsons, "I used to be with it" quote springs to mind. Which is daft, as I'm only in my mid 20s!

drunkmonkey · 17-07-2015 11:32PM

Knex. wrote: »

But even taking the Sport angle, and because of the different physical nature of a born male, a transgender woman would have quite an unfair advantage over her competition. Perhaps even an unsafe one if the sport was MMA or UFC.

You would have thought that but look at some of Fallon Fox's latest fights the girls are hammering her.

teemxxts · 18-07-2015 12:27AM

Well I've been warned by a mod not to attack the poster but the post. Apparently I'm the bad girl here not the bigots. Well hands up I surrender. Drunk monkey, zeferilli and the rest are perfectly entitled to their liberal 'opinions'.

Welcome to the Internet where the truth is irrelevant.

Mint Aero · 18-07-2015 04:56AM

Absolutely nothing stopping from declaring myself a woman and going into female locker rooms now. I dont get this, sounds like it's not been thought out. As usual by Joan.

Dimithy · 18-07-2015 05:54AM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Absolutely nothing stopping from declaring myself a woman and going into female locker rooms now. I dont get this, sounds like it's not been thought out. As usual by Joan.

Off you go so.
Although that says more about you, than this news, or actual transgender people.

P_1 · 18-07-2015 09:13AM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Absolutely nothing stopping from declaring myself a woman and going into female locker rooms now. I dont get this, sounds like it's not been thought out. As usual by Joan.

Something tells me you wouldn't look very attractive in a skirt though :P

fran17 · 18-07-2015 09:29AM

Dimithy wrote: »

Off you go so.
Although that says more about you, than this news, or actual transgender people.

Is that a possibility though?I mean no straight man is going to self declare himself as a female to peep at girls in the locker room,none of sound mind anyhow.But surely only highly qualified medical professionals with extensive experience in this field can diagnose this condition and the true consequences surrounding any change to the individual.
The original bill would have provided for the consultation and recommendations of medical professionals in relation to any individual who was undergoing such transitions but due to extensive lobbying from lgbtq groups this was excluded.Under World Health Organisation F66 guidelines GID is a mental disorder,many want to discredit that but that is fact.So if we take mental disorder as a whole I think all will agree that the first step regarding treatment is the help of experienced medical professionals for diagnosis.However now an individual can simply make a "settled and solemn intention" regarding there preferred gender.

KomradeBishop · 18-07-2015 09:55AM

fran17 wrote: »

Is that a possibility though?I mean no straight man is going to self declare himself as a female to peep at girls in the locker room,none of sound mind anyhow.But surely only highly qualified medical professionals with extensive experience in this field can diagnose this condition and the true consequences surrounding any change to the individual.
The original bill would have provided for the consultation and recommendations of medical professionals in relation to any individual who was undergoing such transitions but due to extensive lobbying from lgbtq groups this was excluded.Under World Health Organisation F66 guidelines GID is a mental disorder,many want to discredit that but that is fact.So if we take mental disorder as a whole I think all will agree that the first step regarding treatment is the help of experienced medical professionals for diagnosis.However now an individual can simply make a "settled and solemn intention" regarding there preferred gender.

After a bit of Googling, Europe does not class it as a mental disorder, and explicitly requests the WHO (n.b. not the band :pac:) to reclassify it:

16. Calls on the Commission and the World Health Organisation to withdraw gender identity disorders from the list of mental and behavioural disorders, and to ensure a non-pathologising reclassification in the negotiations on the 11th version of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-11);

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2011-0427+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

Our very own Mary Robinson has been helping to push in this direction for a long time now as well, along with a whole slew of other related issues:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogyakarta_Principles

KomradeBishop · 18-07-2015 10:04AM

In the current draft of the ICD-11, it has also been reclassified as 'Gender Incongruence' (under 'Conditions related to Sexual Health'):
http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd11/browse/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f411470068

So the consensus has already changed - typically the 'standard manuals' for medicine/mental-health take the best part of a decade to update, and so are regularly out of date with many rapidly changing medical fields; lets remember that homosexuality was considered a mental illness before, not all that long ago.

zeffabelli · 18-07-2015 10:25AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

After a bit of Googling, Europe does not class it as a mental disorder, and explicitly requests the WHO (n.b. not the band :pac:) to reclassify it:
16. Calls on the Commission and the World Health Organisation to withdraw gender identity disorders from the list of mental and behavioural disorders, and to ensure a non-pathologising reclassification in the negotiations on the 11th version of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-11);
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2011-0427+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

Our very own Mary Robinson has been helping to push in this direction for a long time now as well, along with a whole slew of other related issues:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogyakarta_Principles

Anything to do with the DsM or ICD has to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's tied up with politics, lobby groups, cultural values, pharmaceuticals, and health insurance companies.

Don't know how much science is actually in there.

KomradeBishop · 18-07-2015 10:30AM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Anything to do with the DsM or ICD has to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's tied up with politics, lobby groups, cultural values, pharmaceuticals, and health insurance companies.

Don't know how much science is actually in there.

Ya indeed - a lot of classification regarding mental health, is often heavily tied up with 'social regulation', i.e. deciding what is and is not acceptable for society/the-society-we're-in, rather than treating actual illness; all a bit of a minefield really.

zeffabelli · 18-07-2015 10:40AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya indeed - a lot of classification regarding mental health, is often heavily tied up with 'social regulation', i.e. deciding what is and is not acceptable for society/the-society-we're-in, rather than treating actual illness; all a bit of a minefield really.

When they start reclassifying I have to wonder if it's any true reflection of A mental health issue or is it done to legitimise one and remove the stigma from it. Does it also mean insurance doesn't have to cover it because it's not a disorder?

Now that we have shyness pills, obviously because the U.S. Is such an extroverted culture how do shy people function, the flaw is at the foot of the shy person, and not of the culture.

How can anyone take this seriously?

puppieperson · 18-07-2015 10:44AM

caitlyn jenner has made a joke of transgender issues. he/ she is showing an unrealistic view of what its really like to change over. She / he has unlimited funds for procedures & fake family support due to the millions the story is generating and a TV network which reels in the cash on the sad reality tv shows.
I have listened in horror to the stories of botched Asian surgeries people dying from infections, re alignment not being done properly incontenence for life ,scarring for life.
We all have some type of private hell to live with. Is it not better to be private in this and not face the jeering and being like a victorian freak show exhibit to the great white thrash population.

18-07-2015 11:08AM

I don't understand why anyone would want to change their gender - but it also isn't really important that I understand. And nobody is really going to help me do so - it's not really ignorance, but something that I have never had nor will I ever have experience with. However it doesn't stop me from respecting their decisions.

somefeen · 18-07-2015 11:21AM

puppieperson wrote: »

caitlyn jenner has made a joke of transgender issues. he/ she is showing an unrealistic view of what its really like to change over. She / he has unlimited funds for procedures & fake family support due to the millions the story is generating and a TV network which reels in the cash on the sad reality tv shows.
I have listened in horror to the stories of botched Asian surgeries people dying from infections, re alignment not being done properly incontenence for life ,scarring for life.
We all have some type of private hell to live with. Is it not better to be private in this and not face the jeering and being like a victorian freak show exhibit to the great white thrash population.

I agree with the first part of your post. I think Caitlyn Jenner is giving an unrealistic impression of what it means to transition and the real trials and tribulations involved.
But you can feck off with this 'he/she' business and why should anyone be forced to keep it private?
There is a 50% suicide rate amongst trans people because most will reach a crossroads where its either come out and live as their true selves or die.
For many keeping it private is not an option. They aren't doing this at the weekends just for kicks.
Your use if he/she is one of the attitudes that drives people to suicide and really implore you to think about the affect that has on people that have transitioned
If someone forced you to live as a woman and wear womens clothes and referred to you as it or she you wouldnt be happy either.

18-07-2015 11:24AM

I'm sure it has been asked already, but are there any counselling services to go along with the procedure? Or even a few sessions beforehand? It just seems insane that there wouldn't be, if there is a 50% suicide rate.

puppieperson · 18-07-2015 11:35AM

didnt mean to offend but like I said we all live a private hell in one way or another. Some of us just retain our composure against all odds.

somefeen · 18-07-2015 11:37AM

puppieperson wrote: »

didnt mean to offend but like I said we all live a private hell in one way or another. Some of us just retain our composure against all odds.

So trans people just can't compose themselves?

You asked

Is it not better to be private in this and not face the jeering and being like a victorian freak show exhibit to the great white thrash population.

The answer is NO

Links234 · 18-07-2015 11:39AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure it has been asked already, but are there any counselling services to go along with the procedure?

You need to speak to a mental health professional and get a diagnosis of suffering from gender dysphoria in order to get a referal to an endocrinologist and get hormone treatment, and you're required to get two supporting recommendations from mental health professionals as well as an endocrinologist, and to have been on hormone treatment for at least a year before you can be refered to a surgeon.

Gatling · 18-07-2015 11:43AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm sure it has been asked already, but are there any counselling services to go along with the procedure? Or even a few sessions beforehand? It just seems insane that there wouldn't be, if there is a 50% suicide rate.

Read somewhere you need alot of counselling before its even considered

Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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