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Summer 2015 Transfer Window General Discussion

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  • #1112
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    Well his PL ability obviously remains to be seen, but from what I've seen and also heard from some people I know who support Hoffenheim, he's one of the top midfielders there, so I'm happy with what we've done here, although if we blow 32.5m on Benteke I'll be back to being pissed at Ian Ayre and Rodgers again.
    Benteke is by far more accomplished than Firmino right now. You compare Benteke to other Premier League strikers, he holds up well. He is right up there among the best. You've Aguero and Costa who are clearly better but nobody else is significantly better. Kane edges him i think.

    Firmino doesn't hold up anywhere near as well. You look at teams around you, which of the Arsenal bank of 3 is he better than? Sanchez? Nope. Cazorla? Nope. Ozil? Nope. Hazard? Nope. Oscar? Nope. Willian? Nope.

    Now that isn't to say I think Firmino is a bad signing for Liverpool. Absolutely not, I think he is a good signing for Liverpool. If Liverpool are to progress back into the top 4 permanently, him and Clyne are the level of signings that Liverpool need all over the pitch. But let's not turn him into a player he isn't either or act like he is going to be better than Sterling long-term. Because if Sterling doesn't go absolutely off the rails (which I actually wouldn't bank against given his behaviour here and those nitrous oxide videos) you'll be talking about 2 completely different levels of player.


  • #1113
    ShoulderChip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭ShoulderChip


    GavRedKing wrote: »
    Robben?

    Even though he had his injuries was sold to Real for about 20-25m im sure.


    I did think of Robben as the only example, but I always felt that him and Jose had a falling out which was ultimately the reason he was left go / he left.


  • #1114
    GavRedKing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,267 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    ShoulderChip wrote: »
    I did think of Robben as the only example, but I always felt that him and Jose had a falling out which was ultimately the reason he was left go / he left.

    His injuries played a part too but Real probably made a worse call than us by selling him to Bayern and he pushed on even further.


  • #1115
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    ShoulderChip wrote: »
    never happened to Chelsea did it?
    Mourinho players aren't usually Barca players because of the massively contrasting styles. That kinda works to his advantage in a way aswell. I think if Real decided they wanted Hazard it would happen though.

    There is a food-chain, and Real and Barca are on top of it. This has to be accepted by all who are realistic until someone is able to change it. Until that happens, all you can hope for is to be on the next level of the food chain and only lose your best players to those 2 clubs and perhaps Bayern.

    It isn't great for Liverpool to be losing their most promising players to City, but they'll know what to do about it. Establish themselves in a Champions League position every year, and they'll be able to pay bigger wages, and with the size of the club, their players won't be so arsed with going to Man City or Chelsea and would hold out for that big Spanish move.


  • #1116
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    CSF wrote: »
    Benteke is by far more accomplished than Firmino right now. You compare Benteke to other Premier League strikers, he holds up well. He is right up there among the best. You've Aguero and Costa who are clearly better but nobody else is significantly better. Kane edges him i think.

    Firmino doesn't hold up anywhere near as well. You look at teams around you, which of the Arsenal bank of 3 is he better than? Sanchez? Nope. Cazorla? Nope. Ozil? Nope. Hazard? Nope. Oscar? Nope. Willian? Nope.

    Now that isn't to say I think Firmino is a bad signing for Liverpool. Absolutely not, I think he is a good signing for Liverpool. If Liverpool are to progress back into the top 4 permanently, him and Clyne are the level of signings that Liverpool need all over the pitch. But let's not turn him into a player he isn't either or act like he is going to be better than Sterling long-term. Because if Sterling doesn't go absolutely off the rails (which I actually wouldn't bank against given his behaviour here and those nitrous oxide videos) you'll be talking about 2 completely different levels of player.

    Accomplished in the sense that he has done well in the PL yes, but I think Benteke's style doesn't suit us at all, even though he is a very good striker.

    You can't judge a player who hasn't played a minute of PL football against the likes of those players yet, although I think he's about the same level as Coutinho, who I would certainly rate as as good as Oscar and Willian.

    Sterling has bags of talent, but so did Gazza and Freddy Adu, yet their attitudes stunk, which is why I can't see him becoming a top player unless he drastically changes his attitude. Talent is undoubtedly important, but hard work and perseverance counts for much more ; Wilshere has more raw talent than Henderson, but Henderson is a much better player imo because he doesn't act like the clown and works harder than anybody else on the pitch. Wilshere is similar to Sterling in that he burst on the scene at a very young age, but he hasn't kicked on at all and I can't see Sterling turning out much different from him.


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  • #1117
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    Accomplished in the sense that he has done well in the PL yes, but I think Benteke's style doesn't suit us at all, even though he is a very good striker.

    You can't judge a player who hasn't played a minute of PL football against the likes of those players yet, although I think he's about the same level as Coutinho, who I would certainly rate as as good as Oscar and Willian.

    Sterling has bags of talent, but so did Gazza and Freddy Adu, yet their attitudes stunk, which is why I can't see him becoming a top player unless he drastically changes his attitude. Talent is undoubtedly important, but hard work and perseverance counts for much more ; Wilshere has more raw talent than Henderson, but Henderson is a much better player imo because he doesn't act like the clown and works harder than anybody else on the pitch. Wilshere is similar to Sterling in that he burst on the scene at a very young age, but he hasn't kicked on at all and I can't see Sterling turning out much different from him.
    Serious case of Liverpool goggles here.


  • #1118
    Talib Fiasco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,428 ✭✭✭Talib Fiasco


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    Accomplished in the sense that he has done well in the PL yes, but I think Benteke's style doesn't suit us at all, even though he is a very good striker.

    You can't judge a player who hasn't played a minute of PL football against the likes of those players yet, although I think he's about the same level as Coutinho, who I would certainly rate as as good as Oscar and Willian.

    Sterling has bags of talent, but so did Gazza and Freddy Adu, yet their attitudes stunk, which is why I can't see him becoming a top player unless he drastically changes his attitude. Talent is undoubtedly important, but hard work and perseverance counts for much more ; Wilshere has more raw talent than Henderson, but Henderson is a much better player imo because he doesn't act like the clown and works harder than anybody else on the pitch. Wilshere is similar to Sterling in that he burst on the scene at a very young age, but he hasn't kicked on at all and I can't see Sterling turning out much different from him.

    I'm sorry but did you just compare Paul Gascoigne to Freddy Adu? Yeah, stopped reading right there...


  • #1119
    martingriff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,396 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Utopia Parkway wrote: »
    Liverpool have often sold their best players. It's not a new phenomenon. They sold Keegan, Rush, Owen, McManaman, Suarez, etc. All pretty much in the primes or close enough to it.

    Owen and McManaman did not do very well when they were sold and both got there bad injuries just after leaving. Keegan left as he wanted to experience the continent but was back quickish. Suarez was always going to leave


  • #1120
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    Talib Fiasco wrote: »
    I'm sorry but did you just compare Paul Gascoigne to Freddy Adu? Yeah, stopped reading right there...

    Are you sure you even read that far?


  • #1121
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    Talib Fiasco wrote: »
    I'm sorry but did you just compare Paul Gascoigne to Freddy Adu? Yeah, stopped reading right there...

    Gazza never reached anywhere near the heights expected of him, and so did Adu, although the latter was probably just crap anyway. Both are the first examples I could think of of players who failed to develop because of bad attitudes; Balotelli's probably another one in that group aswell.


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  • #1122
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    Gazza never reached anywhere near the heights expected of him, and so did Adu, although the latter was probably just crap anyway. Both are the first examples I could think of of players who failed to develop because of bad attitudes; Balotelli's probably another one in that group aswell.
    It comes across as pretty sour grapes making those sort of comparisons. Sterling is about as good as you're going to expect from a 20 year old that isn't Messi. You don't expect much from 20 year olds at the top level. Right now, Sterling is doing a pretty good job for a 20 year old in the Premier League at living up to his potential. Did I think he played well enough last season to be throwing the toys out of the pram demanding a move that he hadn't strictly earned? No. But he is after getting a 50 million move to a better team out of it so clearly what do I know.


  • #1123
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    martingriff wrote: »
    Owen and McManaman did not do very well when they were sold and both got there bad injuries just after leaving. Keegan left as he wanted to experience the continent but was back quickish. Suarez was always going to leave

    McManaman won 2 La Ligas and 2 CLs in 4 seasons with Madrid, scoring in the final of the 2000 CL final and making over 150 appearances.

    His playing time got cut as more Galacticos came in, but he is one of the most (possibly the most?) successful English players to have gone abroad in terms of trophies.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #1124
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    CSF wrote: »
    It comes across as pretty sour grapes making those sort of comparisons. Sterling is about as good as you're going to expect from a 20 year old that isn't Messi. You don't expect much from 20 year olds at the top level. Right now, Sterling is doing a pretty good job for a 20 year old in the Premier League at living up to his potential. Did I think he played well enough last season to be throwing the toys out of the pram demanding a move that he hadn't strictly earned? No. But he is after getting a 50 million move to a better team out of it so clearly what do I know.

    When Rodgers called him the 'best young player in Europe', he was called deluded yet now people think he is exactly that. He's undoubtedly a very good player, as I've said before, but unless he changes his attitude drastically, I can't see him ending up at the heights expected of him. I'm also sure plenty of United fans would say he's not better than a 20yr old Ronaldo or Rooney either.


  • #1125
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    When Rodgers called him the 'best young player in Europe', he was called deluded yet now people think he is exactly that. He's undoubtedly a very good player, as I've said before, but unless he changes his attitude drastically, I can't see him ending up at the heights expected of him. I'm also sure plenty of United fans would say he's not better than a 20yr old Ronaldo or Rooney either.
    Well he isn't the best young player in Europe. You've players like Varane and Verratti who have already reached European elite level. Is he the most promising player in England though? Unquestionably. But that doesn't mean he is better than a 20 year old Ronaldo and Rooney (who was freakishly physically developed for his age too) either.

    The argument was never that he is the next coming of Messi. There is somewhere below that for him, that is still way higher than what you've bitterly sold him off at. Elite Premier League player in the future? Probably.


  • #1126
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    CSF wrote: »
    The argument was never that he is the next coming of Messi. There is somewhere below that for him, that is still way higher than what you've bitterly sold him off at. Elite Premier League player in the future? Probably.

    He'll never reach the levels of Ronaldo or Rooney because they've always had the level of humility and work ethic required to reach their height; Sterling doesn't seem to have it, but he might change yet, we don't know, but at the moment I can't see him getting anywhere close to them.


  • #1127
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    He'll never reach the levels of Ronaldo or Rooney because they've always had the level of humility and work ethic required to reach their height; Sterling doesn't seem to have it, but he might change yet, we don't know, but at the moment I can't see him getting anywhere close to them.
    You're talking about players who've been nominated for numerous ballon d'ors here. That is hardly a fair yardstick. I think Liverpool would be more than happy to have numerous elite Premier League players, stretching it out to elite European level is probably unfair to both Liverpool and 20 year old Sterling.

    If Sterling becomes one of the best players in the Premier League, he has done fine.


  • #1128
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    CSF wrote: »
    You're talking about players who've been nominated for numerous ballon d'ors here. That is hardly a fair yardstick. I think Liverpool would be more than happy to have numerous elite Premier League players, stretching it out to elite European level is probably unfair to both Liverpool and 20 year old Sterling.

    If Sterling becomes one of the best players in the Premier League, he has done fine.

    Even the likes of Hazard, Sanchez or Suarez have/had the necessary attitude required to reach their level; as I've said before, he doesn't have this and unless he changes he won't become nearly as good as them.


  • #1129
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Judging his attitude by a laughing gas video is laughable (PUNS). I also remember Hazard acting like a right **** when he pushed for his first big transfer..


  • #1130
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's only 20.

    He has the potential to be a really good player. Time will tell.

    I hope he does


  • #1131
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    AdamD wrote: »
    Judging his attitude by a laughing gas video is laughable (PUNS). I also remember Hazard acting like a right **** when he pushed for his first big transfer..

    To be fair to Hazard, Mourinho turned him into a far better player by getting him to play for the team and work much harder without the ball. Sterling could yet turn himself around but he'll need to get started quick at City next season or the fans will get at him, especially with the pricetag on him.


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  • #1132
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    Even the likes of Hazard, Sanchez or Suarez have/had the necessary attitude required to reach their level; as I've said before, he doesn't have this and unless he changes he won't become nearly as good as them.
    *ahem*

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1189782-eden-hazard-why-lille-star-isnt-worth-the-money

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/why-chelsea-could-regret-eden-hazard-851748

    You're being overly harsh on Sterling out of bitterness because he did not want to stay at Liverpool.


  • #1133
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Rooney has been criticised more than for not looking after himself during the summer and coming back overweight. He's probably not the poster boy for knuckling down and working hard.

    I don't think it's inconceivable that Sterling could reach a similar level to Rooney.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #1134
    batistuta9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,528 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    When Rodgers called him the 'best young player in Europe', he was called deluded yet now people think he is exactly that. He's undoubtedly a very good player, as I've said before, but unless he changes his attitude drastically, I can't see him ending up at the heights expected of him. I'm also sure plenty of United fans would say he's not better than a 20yr old Ronaldo or Rooney either.

    united fans be wrong
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/24/how-does-raheem-sterling-score-against-ronaldo-messi-age-20


  • #1135
    Corholio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    united fans be wrong
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/24/how-does-raheem-sterling-score-against-ronaldo-messi-age-20

    In fairness that's a pretty awful article. Along the lines of 'Here's some stats to show he was better than Ronaldo at age 20, but actually now let me tell you why those stats don't mean a lot'


  • #1136
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    CSF wrote: »
    *ahem*

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1189782-eden-hazard-why-lille-star-isnt-worth-the-money

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/why-chelsea-could-regret-eden-hazard-851748

    You're being overly harsh on Sterling out of bitterness because he did not want to stay at Liverpool.

    As I said above, Hazard (with the help Mourinho) helped to turn himself around and became a team player. That said, is Pellegrini good enough to tame some of Sterling's ego? Time will tell, but I think Mourinho is far better at that than Pellegrini is.


  • #1137
    MD1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭MD1990


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    He's only 20.

    He has the potential to be a really good player. Time will tell.

    I hope he does
    :confused: Why he is joining City


  • #1138
    MD1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭MD1990


    ShoulderChip wrote: »
    never happened to Chelsea did it?
    Chelsea didn't play the right style of football or have the attacking players that would attract Real or Barca. Hazard is a player that could attract Real in the future though.


  • #1139
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,513 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    MightyMandarin wrote: »
    As I said above, Hazard (with the help Mourinho) helped to turn himself around and became a team player. That said, is Pellegrini good enough to tame some of Sterling's ego? Time will tell, but I think Mourinho is far better at that than Pellegrini is.
    Ah come on, you're contradicting yourself now. Even Mourinho was complaining about Hazard's attitude this time last year. Hazard nearly left because of it. He hasn't an amazing attitude, no better than Sterling's. Merely 4 years more experience, maturity and maybe (we'll see) slightly more talent to begin with.

    You're really just looking for any stick to beat Sterling with at this stage because it is alot easier to lose your most valuable player if you can act like you came out the best of it. But Liverpool haven't. They'd be much better off with Sterling for the next 10 years (it might not even be next year that he finds himself but I do see him being extremely eager to prove himself now) than that 50 million.

    What Liverpool have done well in here though, is to come out of this with 50 million for a player that completely isolated himself from the club. They've done very well at making the best of a bad situation.


  • #1140
    Talib Fiasco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,428 ✭✭✭Talib Fiasco


    MD1990 wrote: »
    :confused: Why he is joining City

    Because as anyone who is mature and actually loves the game and not just one club, who wouldn't want to see a guy like that fulfil his potential and not become a David Bentley type player. All bitter rivalries and childish stuff aside, it'd be great if a guy like Sterling, or any guy who goes for big money at such a young age see out his potential.


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  • #1141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MD1990 wrote: »
    :confused: Why he is joining City

    Why not.

    I like the way he plays,he's exciting to watch. Unfortunately he's with another club now but I'll look forward to watching him as I do Silva, Aguero Sanchez etc


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