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National Postcodes to be introduced
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I'm curious to know what such a "description" entails and where they would get it from. Maybe it's something like automated navigation directions eg "turn left onto the R101, then right onto the L10202 and it is 300metres up on left". You'd think a simple map would be more reliable than that though, as not all local roads are properly sign-posted.gerard2210 wrote: »We were told in rural areas where there is no name on the address there will be a description of the house. Will have to wait and see how it goes. Also if its addressed to pat murphy and he is no longer at the address the code is to be delivered as addressed as code is for the house not pat murphy.0 -
plodder wrote:I'm curious to know what such a "description" entails and where they would get it from. Maybe it's something like automated navigation directions eg "turn left onto the R101, then right onto the L10202 and it is 300metres up on left". You'd think a simple map would be more reliable than that though, as not all local roads are properly sign-posted.
Probably a description of the house. ( white dormer with red door) taken from Google maps . I'm sure the address will contain the townland which will have between 30-50 houses so a decent house description should find the house.0 -
Possibly, but that sounds like quite a costly undertaking since the description would have to be written by real people looking at google maps. You could probably generate photos of the house easily enough. Will be interesting to see how they do it.gerard2210 wrote: »Probably a description of the house. ( white dormer with red door) taken from Google maps . I'm sure the address will contain the townland which will have between 30-50 houses so a decent house description should find the house.0 -
A couple of letters to the Editor in the Irish Times yesterday and today.
Yesterday, with the title ‘Utterly useless’ postcodes from a Gavin Tobin of Ethos Technology:Sir, – The revelation by Eircode chief Liam Duggan (“Eircode chief defends use of seven-digit code system”, July 6th) that grid-based postcodes are in his words “utterly useless” may come as a shock to the rest of the developed world.
The only thing a grid-based design cannot do over Eircodes’ poorly structured “random” design is offer a unique postcode to every apartment in a block.
Grid-based postcodes are perfect for reporting all emergencies (both dwelling and non-dwelling, such as road traffic accidents ), perfect for goods deliveries and perfect for the public and tourists. They are simple, easily understood and can be put on street signs and along way-marked trails. An Eircode needs a computer or app to decipher and amazingly is not compatible with street signs because they don’t have a letterbox.
Does Ireland want a confusing random postcode or a structured smart postcode designed to facilitate the needs of our emergency services, citizens, businesses and visitors. Even at the eleventh hour it is still not too late to change the code to something useful. – Yours, etc,
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/utterly-useless-postcodes-1.2276495
This morning, from a George Reynolds of Blessington, titled Utterly useless postcodes? Use the Irish GridGeorge Reynolds wrote:Sir, – Apart from the UK and Canada, no European country nor the USA, use coded grid coordinates for postcodes. France, Spain, Sweden and Germany use a simpler hierarchical code based around the actual post distribution system.
The argument for Ireland and the UK is that rural dwellers are difficult to locate for deliveries and emergencies as they are not part of the town and street system.
However, there is a cheaper and very effective alternative – the national grid coordinate.
A 10-digit code as used by hillwalkers will get you to within 10m of any house in rural Ireland and will work quite well even in towns and cities.
When shortened to eight digits as in my address below, the coordinate is good to within 100m, which would be adequate for most emergency services or a parcel delivery in a rural setting.
The national grid is free, simple to understand and is printed on most Ordnance Survey maps.
It can also be found on every GPS and satnav system. The benefits are that no codification is required and ease of use. A 10 digit number is no longer than many telephone numbers with their area codes and an added benefit is that one can estimate the distance or proximity of another address by comparing the numbers. – Yours, etc,
GEORGE REYNOLDS
Blessington,
Co Wicklow,
2982-2139.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/utterly-useless-postcodes-use-the-irish-grid-1.22779220 -
Few tweets today about Eircode having about 50,000 inaccurate Irish language names in its database, well basically saying the pre exisiting geodirectory has that many so eircode database will too.
Of course the eircode opposition are loving it, blaming eircode for it.0 -
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It won't be long before we ear a flood of complaints about web sites that reject the new postcodes as the companies databases haven't been updated to recognise them. UK sites will be the most affected.0
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I thought the whole point of these was that they would be more useful than postcodes that were about postal service delivery!
Instead what do we get... An Post delivery node based system.
What happens if those nodes change over the years ? New postcodes for everyone !?
What relevance is An Post's delivery system to any other user of this system?!
It seems like all the potential problems and advantages of different systems were mentioned on this thread years ago.
The government clearly seems to want to reinvent the wheel for some reason and has ploughed ahead with a system that clearly hits all the potholes that were mapped out years ago,
We're stuck with it now! So I suppose we'll just have to make the most of it.
It's very disappointing though and a very significant waste of resources. This thread's contributors would have done a FAR better job!!
I actually don't think Loc8 was a perfect solution either. We needed something human-friendly.
What we have now is basically just a database look up key.
Well done IRL Gov!
Slow clap!
I've a feeling I'll be texting people google maps links for a long time to come!0 -
Eircode are the ones "publishing" the errors.Few tweets today about Eircode having about 50,000 inaccurate Irish language names in its database, well basically saying the pre exisiting geodirectory has that many so eircode database will too.
Of course the eircode opposition are loving it, blaming eircode for it.
But this just highlights the political shambles that eircode is the public face of. A few days before this is released, after a decade of talking about it, and it's still not clear who is responsible for anything. The Dept of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht has a Placenames Branch that keeps track of place names (http://www.logainm.ie). The Department of the Environment seems to be responsible for deciding when/how a place can change it's name (see Dingle/Daingean). An Post, which used to be an arm of the Dept of Communications, is answerable only to itself when it comes to deciding what is an acceptable Postal address (including requiring some people who live in Roscommon to use Co Westmeath in their address). Now eircode comes along, but it's not clear whether it has any actual role in managing addresses, or is it just generating labels to apply to the An Post GeoDirectory, and charging businesses for the use of this intellectual property, or did they just use the GeoDirectory as their starting point, and they'll be responsible for managing and maintaining their own separate database going forward, that will tend to deviate from An Posts version more and more over time. Will Eircode fix these 50,000 incorrect placenames in their database, or will they wave their hands and say it's up to An Post?0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 19125
I thought the whole point of these was that they would be more useful than postcodes that were about postal service delivery!
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We're stuck with it now! So I suppose we'll just have to make the most of it.
It's very disappointing though and a very significant waste of resources. This thread's contributors would have done a FAR better job!!
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Well done IRL Gov!
Slow clap!
I've a feeling I'll be texting people google maps links for a long time to come!
I think that in fact it would be quite easy to redo the Eircode system if it is a failure. It is all computer based, so it would be quite easy to produce an Aircode system to run in parallel for a while and it replace the defunct Eircode if it were to prove to be useless.0 -
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Eircode are the ones "publishing" the errors.
But this just highlights the political shambles that eircode is the public face of. A few days before this is released, after a decade of talking about it, and it's still not clear who is responsible for anything. The Dept of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht has a Placenames Branch that keeps track of place names (http://www.logainm.ie). The Department of the Environment seems to be responsible for deciding when/how a place can change it's name (see Dingle/Daingean). An Post, which used to be an arm of the Dept of Communications, is answerable only to itself when it comes to deciding what is an acceptable Postal address (including requiring some people who live in Roscommon to use Co Westmeath in their address). Now eircode comes along, but it's not clear whether it has any actual role in managing addresses, or is it just generating labels to apply to the An Post GeoDirectory, and charging businesses for the use of this intellectual property, or did they just use the GeoDirectory as their starting point, and they'll be responsible for managing and maintaining their own separate database going forward, that will tend to deviate from An Posts version more and more over time. Will Eircode fix these 50,000 incorrect placenames in their database, or will they wave their hands and say it's up to An Post?
The geodirectory is the core database of the ECAD, they paid An Post €9 million to use it as the core database for a period of 10 years.
If the geodirectory is wrong, then the owner of that database (An Post and OSI) are responsible for fixing it and thus the ECAD gets the updates accordingly.
It's pretty straight forward. No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
I expect to see a lot of this after launch tho, maybe a headline in The Sun "I'm pregnant because eircode lost my online delivery of condoms"0 -
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Sam Russell wrote: »I think that in fact it would be quite easy to redo the Eircode system if it is a failure. It is all computer based, so it would be quite easy to produce an Aircode system to run in parallel for a while and it replace the defunct Eircode if it were to prove to be useless.
Redoing them wouldn't be politically viable tbh.
There would be uproar about wasted money0 -
Fundamentally we need actual addresses. It shouldn't be possible to get planning permission for a building without an address.
We've been FAR too sloppy with the "system" over the years and this is he legacy.
I'd like to see some legislation on addresses and retrospective application of numbers to houses.
You can number houses in rural areas easily enough without messing up town land names or naming roads.
A lot of the paranoia here comes down to Northern Ireland naming roads and applying a unionist bias to their names.
Also having roads with no names is frankly stupid. You should call them something! it's perfectly possible to get consensus.
This is the kind of thing local authorities should be doing!
Naming your house and not using a number in an urban area shouldn't be possible. Where no numbers exist thy should be applied and where people just insist on naming things and not using numbers they shouldn't get mail.
I mean this is like refusing to use telephone numbers and insisting you should be able to call the operator ! You can't!0 -
So a 7 character code from eircode can help with the problem of non-unique addresses, but a 7 character code from Loc8 can't?And because they are of no use to helping with the problems of non unique addresses.
Neat trick that!
It's not the eircode itself that helps with the issue of non-unique addresses, it's the database that the eircode is stored in. You could maintain exactly the same database with loc8 codes that are based on the physical properties of the dwelling, if restricting people to the use of their "official" postcode was critical to your business.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 19125
Redoing them wouldn't be politically viable tbh.
There would be uproar about wasted money
Seamus Brennan dumped the direction signs for Dublin as they were being put up. He faced no backlash for stopping an ugly system.Fundamentally we need actual addresses. It shouldn't be possible to get planning permission for a building without an address.
We've been FAR too sloppy with the "system" over the years and this is he legacy.
I'd like to see some legislation on addresses and retrospective application of numbers to houses.
You can number houses in rural areas easily enough without messing up town land names or naming roads.
A lot of the paranoia here comes down to Northern Ireland naming roads and applying a unionist bias to their names.
Also having roads with no names is frankly stupid. You should call them something! it's perfectly possible to get consensus.
This is the kind of thing local authorities should be doing!
Naming your house and not using a number in an urban area shouldn't be possible. Where no numbers exist thy should be applied and where people just insist on naming things and not using numbers they shouldn't get mail.
I mean this is like refusing to use telephone numbers and insisting you should be able to call the operator ! You can't!
All urban houses should get a number - allowing names is just stupid. They can have the name, but in the line above the number, street name.
A simple start for rural houses with non-unique addresses would be to require all home owners to put a name on their house 'Burke's' or 'Shangila' or 'The White House'. This would be registered with some agency on a first come first served - names would be permanent (or at least long lasting). This would then be painted onto the gate post or on a plaque outside the house. So a visitor would know they had arrived at the correct house. Numbers can come later after they agree on a road name.
A single authority would be required to verify all of this - either the local planning or the Revenue (who collect the LPT).
It is a pity that this was not part of the Eircode fiasco.0 -
So a 7 character code from eircode can help with the problem of non-unique addresses, but a 7 character code from Loc8 can't?
Neat trick that!
Correct.
Loc8 codes, for all the brilliance of the innovation, are based on a self-service system. I have been able to generate three separate codes for my end-of-terrace house - a rural bungalow with 100m of road frontage could have a dozen or more. There is nothing to stop me from using those multiple codes for fraudulent purposes, such as taking out multiple insurance policies for my house, applying for grants and so on. There are billions of unused Loc8 codes, and no way of verifying which relate to bona fide residences or offices.
The point of a resolution-one postcode is that one code verifiably relates to one, and only one, property and vice versa. At a stroke dozens, probably hundreds, of opportunities for fraud are eliminated, as noted with BER certificates up the thread.0 -
I actually have no issue with vanity names for houses or buildings as long as it's followered by a street number.
Snootyville
12 Main Street
Ballygobackwards
Co Atlantis
X99 AXBX
Same for apartment buildings or office complexes.
Fill in buildings should just get something like a letter after
12, 12A,12B,13,140 -
Are there many websites that already updated to include an Eircode? I noticed this evening that ParcelMotel includes an Eircode field for card payments on their website.0
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Are there many websites that already updated to include an Eircode? I noticed this evening that ParcelMotel includes an Eircode field for card payments on their website.
The only ones we know of so far are ones that "leaked" before the launch on Monday. So far SEAI and PayPal. It's likely all the government websites will be updated next week to look for eircode too.0 -
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Householders are going to have a lot of interaction with their address entry in Eircodes and they are best positioned to identify errors. There should be a process for them to submit corrections, for the corrections to be examined, and changes made as necessary. For example, if they notice incorrect spellings, incorrect Irish versions, incorrect X/Y.Now eircode comes along, but it's not clear whether it has any actual role in managing addresses
If Eircode doesn't have a process for improving the database by using this feedback then they will irritate households and perpetuate errors. It should be possible for householders to change or remove an old house name that they inherited when they purchased the house.
By taking on this role, ECAD will become the most up-to-date file and evolve to be the national address file. It can then be linked in with the electoral register etc. and used as the basis for administrative registers.0 -
That's nonsense. They're based on geo-coordinates, and you don't pick your own geo-coordinates. Loc8 codes are no more "self-service" than eircodes are (you'll be able to "self-serve" your eircode by looking it up on a map long before you get your postcard) except that, obviously nobody has spent €2-€5 million printing off and delivering postcards with the Loc8 code for every house in the country.Correct.
Loc8 codes, for all the brilliance of the innovation, are based on a self-service system.
Just how stupid do you think Insurance companies are? Even if they couldn't figure out which Loc8 code refers to the center of whichever polygon it is you want them to insure (even though An Post has managed to do that), they are certainly capable of figuring out that they've received multiple applications from neighbouring codes.I have been able to generate three separate codes for my end-of-terrace house - a rural bungalow with 100m of road frontage could have a dozen or more. There is nothing to stop me from using those multiple codes for fraudulent purposes, such as taking out multiple insurance policies for my house, applying for grants and so on. There are billions of unused Loc8 codes, and no way of verifying which relate to bona fide residences or offices.
Modern GIS systems make the process of checking whether any particular Loc8 (or any other purely geo-code based) code is the "official" code for an address trivial. This is simply not an advantage of eircode - the mapping already exits, and using the maps with any particular geo-coding system is pretty straightforward.The point of a resolution-one postcode is that one code verifiably relates to one, and only one, property and vice versa. At a stroke dozens, probably hundreds, of opportunities for fraud are eliminated, as noted with BER certificates up the thread.0 -
That's nonsense. They're based on geo-coordinates, and you don't pick your own geo-coordinates. Loc8 codes are no more "self-service" than eircodes are (you'll be able to "self-serve" your eircode by looking it up on a map long before you get your postcard) except that, obviously nobody has spent €2-€5 million printing off and delivering postcards with the Loc8 code for every house in the country.
Just how stupid do you think Insurance companies are? Even if they couldn't figure out which Loc8 code refers to the center of whichever polygon it is you want them to insure (even though An Post has managed to do that), they are certainly capable of figuring out that they've received multiple applications from neighbouring codes.
Modern GIS systems make the process of checking whether any particular Loc8 (or any other purely geo-code based) code is the "official" code for an address trivial. This is simply not an advantage of eircode - the mapping already exits, and using the maps with any particular geo-coding system is pretty straightforward.
What you're suggesting is actually what we have now. Ericode is the official postcode of an address and it's unique and can be used for address validation and navigation to properties. That's what 99% of what people will use a postcode for. Loc8 can serve the 1% who need a code for other purposes.
No one spent €27 million designing eircode. Have you actually checked how that figure is broken down? The design cost is tiny, the bulk of the cost is for using the geodirectory (which is essential for addresses) and encoding government databases and residual prep work, all that's expense would have been incurred even if they chose loc8 as the national postcode. So the claim that loc8 would give the country a "free" postcode is just wrong
Well actually what you're suggesting is we just use loc8 and then everyone can invest in a GIS system to work out the correct code to use...0 -
in 6 moths time we will be wondering how we lived without them.0
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I know it's what we have now - that's the whole point - they could have used any geo-code based code, instead of this ridiculous random number ****e, and achieved 100% functionality for everyone, without sacrificing anything (except that ability to copyright the codes, and license their use, for a small fee, of course).What you're suggesting is actually what we have now. Ericode is the official postcode of an address and it's unique and can be used for address validation and navigation to properties. That's what 99% of what people will use a postcode for. Loc8 can serve the 1% who need a code for other purposes.
Which is where the argument about "illegal state aid" comes in. The state can't give An Post money directly, but it can design a postcode system that requires the use of an existing An Post asset, and pick a number out of the air for the use of that asset. I'll say stright off that I really have no idea how much An Post currently makes from the licensing of the GeoDirectory, or whether Eircode represents a boondoggle for them - but it's a reasonable question that the Minister could answer in 5 minutes, if he cared to, rather than having the answer ragged out of him by Brussels if the issue is pursued that far.No one spent €27 million designing eircode. Have you actually checked how that figure is broken down? The design cost is tiny, the bulk of the cost is for using the geodirectory (which is essential for addresses) and encoding government databases and residual prep work, all that's expense would have been incurred even if they chose loc8 as the national postcode. So the claim that loc8 would give the country a "free" postcode is just wrong.
There are other resources that could have been used instead of the GeoDirectory (because I'm pretty sure that An Post didn't do all that mapping themselves), but that would required a commitment to a simple and straightforward post code system, which was never going to happen as long as An Post said that they didn't need one.
Nope, I'm suggesting that we use a rational code, and only the people who think it is necessary should invest in a GIS system to maximise it's potential for their use. (The polluter pays principle, and all that)Well actually what you're suggesting is we just use loc8 and then everyone can invest in a GIS system to work out the correct code to use...0 -
I actually have no issue with vanity names for houses or buildings as long as it's followered by a street number.
Snootyville
12 Main Street
Ballygobackwards
Co Atlantis
X99 AXBX
Same for apartment buildings or office complexes.
Fill in buildings should just get something like a letter after
12, 12A,12B,13,14
The problem is with people not putting up any info on their house whatsoever.
So, Mrs Miggins, The White Cottage, 747 Evergreen Terrace, Springtown, Co Somewhere will in reality have no name on the doorbell or the letterbox, no number on the door and the name of the house nowhere be displayed.
And she will probably ring An Post every time a letter is lost, giving out stink about their incompetence.
She will probably not use the Eircode, because "there's no need for it".
And as I write this post, I am seeing a banner ad for Eircode on my boards page.
So a lot of the problems are brought about by the people themselves, i.e insisting "No, this is NOT Co Here, this is County There and I will NOT use the incorrect address", or "sure if I put my name on the door, every Joe will know I live here" and so on. The problem is, if the government sat down with everyone with tea and biscuits to discuss every new thing coming in in detail and asked people for their submission and maybe some smartypants knows better than anyone else, we would still be deciding on streetnames and the color of the Irish flag for the new Irish state after the end of British occupation.
Democracy can only go so far.0 -
I know it's what we have now - that's the whole point - they could have used any geo-code based code, instead of this ridiculous random number ****e, and achieved 100% functionality for everyone, without sacrificing anything (except that ability to copyright the codes, and license their use, for a small fee, of course).
Which is where the argument about "illegal state aid" comes in. The state can't give An Post money directly, but it can design a postcode system that requires the use of an existing An Post asset, and pick a number out of the air for the use of that asset. I'll say stright off that I really have no idea how much An Post currently makes from the licensing of the GeoDirectory, or whether Eircode represents a boondoggle for them - but it's a reasonable question that the Minister could answer in 5 minutes, if he cared to, rather than having the answer ragged out of him by Brussels if the issue is pursued that far.
There are other resources that could have been used instead of the GeoDirectory (because I'm pretty sure that An Post didn't do all that mapping themselves), but that would required a commitment to a simple and straightforward post code system, which was never going to happen as long as An Post said that they didn't need one.
Nope, I'm suggesting that we use a rational code, and only the people who think it is necessary should invest in a GIS system to maximise it's potential for their use. (The polluter pays principle, and all that)
An Post is a semi-state company, meaning the government can give and take money from them whenever they want. They are a shareholder. Same as with ESB, they took money from them last year, same as Irish Rail, they give them money because they can't make any themselves.
This "illegal state aid" claim is pretty bogus
And by the way, I whole heartedly support a postcode that's self financing by being able to be licenced out to commercial entities for them to also benefit from using it. It's a proven system that works.0 -
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A lot of the paranoia here comes down to Northern Ireland naming roads and applying a unionist bias to their names.
!
I lived in the DUP, indeed Robinson citadel of Castlereagh Borough Council's functional area and believe or not, that council was particularly insistent on new housing estates incorporating the Irish townland names and it made sure that roads near me were called "Clontonacally Road", "Ballymaconaghy Road", "Moneyreagh Road" etc.
God bless the DUP for that!
All across those six counties, every road has a name and most have name boards at junctions at headlight level. In South Down and East Tyrone, many are bilingual and perfectly legible. Each house on a rural road has a number (except I think in Fermanagh) and even without a post code, it is far easier to find a rural address.
Although off topic, I would add that frontages onto public roads are generally much tidier, some have footpaths and nearly all have their driveways surfaced.
Contrast with the physical and administrative mess south of the border.
I moved to Limerick and started encountering estates called Windsor Court, Westbury etc. Then with the advent of the Celtic Bubble, there was an explosion of hybrid names such as "Cúl Crannagh" and "Glencairín": names that mean nothing and have no local resonance.0
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