Calling grown women "girls", offensive?

08-07-2015 11:46PM #1

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/08/stop-calling-women-girls-its-either-patronising-or-sexually-suggestive?CMP=fb_gu

Reading this article and I immediately thought feminism gone mad or whatever, but I can see how the 2 politicians would get annoyed at being called girls in the situation talked about I guess.

As for the sexual side that was brought up, that sounded like a load of crap really. Does every somewhat feminist article have to mention pay inequality in some way too? I don't believe it's an issue in society moving forward as all the bigwig men who grew up in a time when sexism was prevalent start to die off and being replaced I think that stat will find the balance between the sexes.

Thoughts? I realise this could be a tough topic to discuss properly on here but the article has me thinking (maybe more than it should).

Billy86 · 08-07-2015 11:48PM

From the Article wrote:

I cannot imagine a group of male senior executives referred to as “boys”, but it’s easy to conjure up “girls” in the reverse scenario.

England’s women’s football team – World Cup bronze medal winners no less – were frequently referred to as “girls” by pundits and commentators.

One might argue that male footballers are referred to as “lads” or “the boys”, which is true. But these terms are not so loaded.

I'm usually quite hospitable towards a lot of feminist argument (either agreeing or at least seeing where they are coming from) but on this one... get f***ed.

08-07-2015 11:52PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm usually quite hospitable towards a lot of feminist argument (either agreeing or at least seeing where they are coming from) but on this one... get f***ed.

I do agree, it's a badly written article and it was actually one of the comments that got me thinking. You'd never really hear a couple of circa 50 year old men be called "boys" but these 2 were called "girls" which I guess is disrespectful.

Billy86 · 08-07-2015 11:52PM

She also uses an Elvis Presley song from 1962 as an example. Because women's rights and how they are viewed/treated in society has not changed one jot in the last 63 years. Sure, a quick view of the early episodes of Mad Men will teach you that... their offices are exactly what every workplace is still like today.

anncoates · 08-07-2015 11:54PM

It would probably be a far less problematic world - or at least Internet - if words were judged on the basis of specific context and intent rather than agenda.

The Guardian is becoming like an embarrassing younger sibling. You're essentially in their corner but they make you cringe about twice a week.

Billy86 · 08-07-2015 11:54PM

Liam O wrote: »

I do agree, it's a badly written article and it was actually one of the comments that got me thinking. You'd never really hear a couple of circa 50 year old men be called "boys" but these 2 were called "girls" which I guess is disrespectful.

I've heard men over 40 referred to as 'boys' plenty of times. It's usually from their wives/female work colleagues/etc as well - less 'boys boys boyiz!' type stuff and more playful, like "going out with the boys for a few drinks after work Friday?" or "what were you and the rest of the boys planning in that meeting?" type of stuff.

fatknacker · 08-07-2015 11:55PM

Girls are not as scary threatening as "women"
But what is mammy?
Mammy's me da.

sunshine and showers · 08-07-2015 11:58PM

It depends on the situation, really. If it was in a professional context, I'd be offended tbh.
Best to air on the side of caution and say ladies.

eviltwin · 09-07-2015 12:04AM

Depends on how it's meant. Girls/boys would be common among my friends, it's familiar and light hearted and implies camaraderie. In a professional setting it's just patronising and meant to belittle someone. Big difference.

osarusan · 09-07-2015 12:08AM

anncoates wrote: »

It would probably be a far less problematic world - or at least Internet - if words were judged on the basis of specific context and intent rather than agenda.

The Guardian is becoming like an embarrassing younger sibling. You're essentially in their corner but they make you cringe about twice a week.

The Guardian should just get rid of their 'comment is free' section. Much of the criticism comes from content in that section.

_Whimsical_ · 09-07-2015 12:11AM

I really don't have much of a problem with it myself in general life but I can see how it could be offensive in a professional settting. I have a relation in quite a high powered job who refers to his female colleagues as "the girls". It's always "the girls had a great laugh at that", "ah the girls get awful upset now when there's a performance review so I never call it that when I'm talking to them" etc. It does seem condescending but to my shame from his comments I had always pictured him in a Mad Men-esque sort of office full of giddy young secretaries that he's carefully managing and trying not to upset. It wasn't a conscious notion, just what was conjured from the tales. Instead at a party there all the family were a bit shocked to find these "girls" were women in their 40s in high ranking positions,capable, sophisticated,very professional. Someone else actually mentioned "are these the "girls"???" to me with a laugh.

I think if you call women girls it's easier to tar them with these notions of needing to tread of eggshells and break things gently to them and in so doing easier to consider them weaker and less capable, sure you have to take care of the girls! In a professional capacity I would probably take umbrage at being referred to as "one of the girls".

efb · 09-07-2015 12:13AM

Men don't like being referred to "boy" "lad" or "son" by their peers, I imagine it's the same for women.

It usually inferres immaturity

madmaggie · 09-07-2015 12:14AM

Being of the middle aged variety, I love being called a girl. Makes me feel less over the hill.

Tombi! · 09-07-2015 12:20AM

Girls - a great bunch of lads.

Context matters; calling a bunch of 20 year old college students that are female "girls" wouldn't be a problem imo.
Referring to a woman in a serious context as a girl can be derogatory. No different from saying those two women in the article are kids.
Context and common sense goes a long way. If a woman makes an effort to be professional and mature, treat them that way.

Carlos Orange · 09-07-2015 12:22AM

efb wrote: »

Men don't like being referred to "boy" "lad" or "son" by their peers, I imagine it's the same for women.

It usually inferres immaturity

That obviously isn't true. Women (at least the tiny subset I work work) call each other girls all the time. People seem to only complain when they don't consider the person a peer. Women just need a word to refer to women that has the casualness of guys and that they don't object to men using. Unfortunately all that comes to mind is dolls and that obviously doesn't work.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 09-07-2015 12:26AM

I don't mind being called boy or kid by an elder, I don't like son though:mad::mad:.

Jesus Wept · 09-07-2015 12:27AM

I've had this thought many times, it is bizarre to refer to grown women as girls

On another note, the journalist sounds a bit of a shrill tool.

wrote:

The term “girls” should really be limited to the under-13s. After that, add the prefix of “teenage”, and I’d say around the age of 16, shift to referring to “young women”. Then, at 18: women. It’s not difficult.

Not difficult, but overly complicated. Can I ID ye?

Also:

'Hello teenage girls'
'Hello young women'

Unless I am aiming to sound like a complete creep, I'll avoid that. :P

09-07-2015 12:30AM

My gran is over 80 and refers to her friends as 'the girls'. That's fine, as it's in a social context. God forbid anyone else calls her a girl in any other setting, she will tell them to call her Mrs Abc or her first name, as in those instances it would be disrespectful.

My boss calls me all kinds of things when it's the two of us - pet, dote, The House Elf, Vicky Pollard - and we laugh (I call him Pappy, Arnie or The Bossinator), but when we're in a room with other people in a professional setting he refers to me by name or title, to women generally he uses something gender neutral, their titles, or just calls them women.

It's ALL about the context.

wp_rathead · 09-07-2015 12:30AM

It's pretty unprofessional - can 100% understand why Women would find it rather offensive/demeaning

Don't think any "PC Gone Mad"Ness needed here

Claire Cohen in the Telegraph however seems to try find sexism in anything from Prince William calling Kate Middleton "the missus" to feeling sympathy for Women English Football player who scored OG
She is making a mockery out of the legitimate feminist movement imo

Gamer Bhoy 89 · 09-07-2015 12:32AM

I'll never forget when someone dismissed me with "you're not a man, you're only a chap" at the age of 24. The most emasculating thing I've ever heard spoken to me. So in some cases I can see why it would annoy some women. However, being called "girls" and calling it "sexually suggestive" is a bit of an exaggeration, in my opinion.

SpaceTime · 09-07-2015 12:33AM

I think it very much depends on the context.

I've been fairly shocked on a few occasions to hear execs and female secretaries in their 50s/60s calling the administration unit "the girls" and the engineers "the lads" even though "the girls" actually includes several men.

That's quite different to someone talking about "the boys" or "the girls" in the sense of describing a group of men or women without those loaded stereotypes.

Very much depends on the context.

Also guys and in Ireland lads can sometimes just mean a group of people. I hear women described as "the lads" in cork for example.

efb · 09-07-2015 12:41AM

psinno wrote: »

That obviously isn't true. Women (at least the tiny subset I work work) call each other girls all the time. People seem to only complain when they don't consider the person a peer. Women just need a word to refer to women that has the casualness of guys and that they don't object to men using. Unfortunately all that comes to mind is dolls and that obviously doesn't work.

I don't mean friends, thats why I used peers.

hatrickpatrick · 09-07-2015 12:43AM

The trouble is that there isn't a female equivalent of "lads". "Men" and "women" is too formal for a lot of situations (not this one of course) but a guy is hardly going to say "I'm heading for a beer with my men, see ye later"...

It's all about intent, really. The word "boys" can be used in either an affectionate or derogatory manner in the same way.

candy-gal1 · 09-07-2015 12:44AM

Eh no, not imho anyway, I take it as a compliment

Gamer Bhoy 89 · 09-07-2015 12:45AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The trouble is that there isn't a female equivalent of "lads". "Men" and "women" is too formal for a lot of situations (not this one of course) but a guy is hardly going to say "I'm heading for a beer with my men, see ye later"...

It's all about intent, really. The word "boys" can be used in either an affectionate or derogatory manner in the same way.

Don't know why I found that as funny as I did. Couldn't stop laughing

The Backwards Man · 09-07-2015 12:47AM

All dollybirds to me.

hatrickpatrick · 09-07-2015 12:49AM

anncoates wrote: »

The Guardian is becoming like an embarrassing younger sibling. You're essentially in their corner but they make you cringe about twice a week.

In my view it's already gone much further down that rabbit hole than you're suggesting - I'm not sure if I'm even in their corner anymore. The Guardian and the Huffington Post are two publications I used to have the utmost respect for in their quest to defend protesters, activists, privacy and free speech. In the last couple of years, both seem to be absolutely hellbent on following the SJW agenda and taking any opportunity to either ascribe the villain label to men or the victim label to women.

It's sad, really. These two papers provide a very valuable public service in covering issues of concern to ordinary people which the mainstream media neglects to mention - that both of the have jumped on the SJW bandwagon and sacrificed a lot of their principles in the process is something which as an activist I find deeply troubling.

There's an easy enough barometer for this, interestingly. As soon as a previously liberal publication begins to use the word "problematic" to describe art, expression or conversation which isn't 100% pc-sanitized, there's usually no going back and that publication has fallen into shadow.

suicide_circus · 09-07-2015 12:49AM

The correct term is "hoes"

beks101 · 09-07-2015 12:57AM

Christ. I can think of one million things to get offended by as a female before being called a "girl" would be one of them.

Carlos Orange · 09-07-2015 12:58AM

efb wrote: »

I don't mean friends, thats why I used peers.

They also use girls to refer to groups of women they haven't met face to face and in some cases they haven't even talked to.

hatrickpatrick · 09-07-2015 01:00AM

Gamer Bhoy 89 wrote: »

I'll never forget when someone dismissed me with "you're not a man, you're only a chap" at the age of 24. The most emasculating thing I've ever heard spoken to me.

Seriously? Duuuuuude.

Calling grown women "girls", offensive?

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