Calling grown women "girls", offensive?

Liam O

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/08/stop-calling-women-girls-its-either-patronising-or-sexually-suggestive?CMP=fb_gu

Reading this article and I immediately thought feminism gone mad or whatever, but I can see how the 2 politicians would get annoyed at being called girls in the situation talked about I guess.

As for the sexual side that was brought up, that sounded like a load of crap really. Does every somewhat feminist article have to mention pay inequality in some way too? I don't believe it's an issue in society moving forward as all the bigwig men who grew up in a time when sexism was prevalent start to die off and being replaced I think that stat will find the balance between the sexes.

Thoughts? I realise this could be a tough topic to discuss properly on here but the article has me thinking (maybe more than it should).

Billy86

From the Article wrote:

I cannot imagine a group of male senior executives referred to as “boys”, but it’s easy to conjure up “girls” in the reverse scenario.

England’s women’s football team – World Cup bronze medal winners no less – were frequently referred to as “girls” by pundits and commentators.

One might argue that male footballers are referred to as “lads” or “the boys”, which is true. But these terms are not so loaded.

I'm usually quite hospitable towards a lot of feminist argument (either agreeing or at least seeing where they are coming from) but on this one... get f***ed.

Liam O

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm usually quite hospitable towards a lot of feminist argument (either agreeing or at least seeing where they are coming from) but on this one... get f***ed.

I do agree, it's a badly written article and it was actually one of the comments that got me thinking. You'd never really hear a couple of circa 50 year old men be called "boys" but these 2 were called "girls" which I guess is disrespectful.

Billy86

She also uses an Elvis Presley song from 1962 as an example. Because women's rights and how they are viewed/treated in society has not changed one jot in the last 63 years. Sure, a quick view of the early episodes of Mad Men will teach you that... their offices are exactly what every workplace is still like today.

anncoates

It would probably be a far less problematic world - or at least Internet - if words were judged on the basis of specific context and intent rather than agenda.

The Guardian is becoming like an embarrassing younger sibling. You're essentially in their corner but they make you cringe about twice a week.

Billy86

Liam O wrote: »

I do agree, it's a badly written article and it was actually one of the comments that got me thinking. You'd never really hear a couple of circa 50 year old men be called "boys" but these 2 were called "girls" which I guess is disrespectful.

I've heard men over 40 referred to as 'boys' plenty of times. It's usually from their wives/female work colleagues/etc as well - less 'boys boys boyiz!' type stuff and more playful, like "going out with the boys for a few drinks after work Friday?" or "what were you and the rest of the boys planning in that meeting?" type of stuff.

fatknacker

Girls are not as scary threatening as "women"
But what is mammy?
Mammy's me da.

sunshine and showers

It depends on the situation, really. If it was in a professional context, I'd be offended tbh.
Best to air on the side of caution and say ladies.

eviltwin

Depends on how it's meant. Girls/boys would be common among my friends, it's familiar and light hearted and implies camaraderie. In a professional setting it's just patronising and meant to belittle someone. Big difference.

osarusan

anncoates wrote: »

It would probably be a far less problematic world - or at least Internet - if words were judged on the basis of specific context and intent rather than agenda.

The Guardian is becoming like an embarrassing younger sibling. You're essentially in their corner but they make you cringe about twice a week.

The Guardian should just get rid of their 'comment is free' section. Much of the criticism comes from content in that section.

_Whimsical_

I really don't have much of a problem with it myself in general life but I can see how it could be offensive in a professional settting. I have a relation in quite a high powered job who refers to his female colleagues as "the girls". It's always "the girls had a great laugh at that", "ah the girls get awful upset now when there's a performance review so I never call it that when I'm talking to them" etc. It does seem condescending but to my shame from his comments I had always pictured him in a Mad Men-esque sort of office full of giddy young secretaries that he's carefully managing and trying not to upset. It wasn't a conscious notion, just what was conjured from the tales. Instead at a party there all the family were a bit shocked to find these "girls" were women in their 40s in high ranking positions,capable, sophisticated,very professional. Someone else actually mentioned "are these the "girls"???" to me with a laugh.

I think if you call women girls it's easier to tar them with these notions of needing to tread of eggshells and break things gently to them and in so doing easier to consider them weaker and less capable, sure you have to take care of the girls! In a professional capacity I would probably take umbrage at being referred to as "one of the girls".

efb

Men don't like being referred to "boy" "lad" or "son" by their peers, I imagine it's the same for women.

It usually inferres immaturity

madmaggie

Being of the middle aged variety, I love being called a girl. Makes me feel less over the hill.

Tombi!

Girls - a great bunch of lads.

Context matters; calling a bunch of 20 year old college students that are female "girls" wouldn't be a problem imo.
Referring to a woman in a serious context as a girl can be derogatory. No different from saying those two women in the article are kids.
Context and common sense goes a long way. If a woman makes an effort to be professional and mature, treat them that way.

Carlos Orange

efb wrote: »

Men don't like being referred to "boy" "lad" or "son" by their peers, I imagine it's the same for women.

It usually inferres immaturity

That obviously isn't true. Women (at least the tiny subset I work work) call each other girls all the time. People seem to only complain when they don't consider the person a peer. Women just need a word to refer to women that has the casualness of guys and that they don't object to men using. Unfortunately all that comes to mind is dolls and that obviously doesn't work.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I don't mind being called boy or kid by an elder, I don't like son though:mad::mad:.

Jesus Wept

I've had this thought many times, it is bizarre to refer to grown women as girls

On another note, the journalist sounds a bit of a shrill tool.

wrote:

The term “girls” should really be limited to the under-13s. After that, add the prefix of “teenage”, and I’d say around the age of 16, shift to referring to “young women”. Then, at 18: women. It’s not difficult.

Not difficult, but overly complicated. Can I ID ye?

Also:

'Hello teenage girls'
'Hello young women'

Unless I am aiming to sound like a complete creep, I'll avoid that. :P

My gran is over 80 and refers to her friends as 'the girls'. That's fine, as it's in a social context. God forbid anyone else calls her a girl in any other setting, she will tell them to call her Mrs Abc or her first name, as in those instances it would be disrespectful.

My boss calls me all kinds of things when it's the two of us - pet, dote, The House Elf, Vicky Pollard - and we laugh (I call him Pappy, Arnie or The Bossinator), but when we're in a room with other people in a professional setting he refers to me by name or title, to women generally he uses something gender neutral, their titles, or just calls them women.

It's ALL about the context.

wp_rathead

It's pretty unprofessional - can 100% understand why Women would find it rather offensive/demeaning

Don't think any "PC Gone Mad"Ness needed here

Claire Cohen in the Telegraph however seems to try find sexism in anything from Prince William calling Kate Middleton "the missus" to feeling sympathy for Women English Football player who scored OG
She is making a mockery out of the legitimate feminist movement imo

Gamer Bhoy 89

I'll never forget when someone dismissed me with "you're not a man, you're only a chap" at the age of 24. The most emasculating thing I've ever heard spoken to me. So in some cases I can see why it would annoy some women. However, being called "girls" and calling it "sexually suggestive" is a bit of an exaggeration, in my opinion.

SpaceTime

I think it very much depends on the context.

I've been fairly shocked on a few occasions to hear execs and female secretaries in their 50s/60s calling the administration unit "the girls" and the engineers "the lads" even though "the girls" actually includes several men.

That's quite different to someone talking about "the boys" or "the girls" in the sense of describing a group of men or women without those loaded stereotypes.

Very much depends on the context.

Also guys and in Ireland lads can sometimes just mean a group of people. I hear women described as "the lads" in cork for example.

efb

psinno wrote: »

That obviously isn't true. Women (at least the tiny subset I work work) call each other girls all the time. People seem to only complain when they don't consider the person a peer. Women just need a word to refer to women that has the casualness of guys and that they don't object to men using. Unfortunately all that comes to mind is dolls and that obviously doesn't work.

I don't mean friends, thats why I used peers.

hatrickpatrick

The trouble is that there isn't a female equivalent of "lads". "Men" and "women" is too formal for a lot of situations (not this one of course) but a guy is hardly going to say "I'm heading for a beer with my men, see ye later"...

It's all about intent, really. The word "boys" can be used in either an affectionate or derogatory manner in the same way.

candy-gal1

Eh no, not imho anyway, I take it as a compliment

Gamer Bhoy 89

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The trouble is that there isn't a female equivalent of "lads". "Men" and "women" is too formal for a lot of situations (not this one of course) but a guy is hardly going to say "I'm heading for a beer with my men, see ye later"...

It's all about intent, really. The word "boys" can be used in either an affectionate or derogatory manner in the same way.

Don't know why I found that as funny as I did. Couldn't stop laughing

The Backwards Man

All dollybirds to me.

hatrickpatrick

anncoates wrote: »

The Guardian is becoming like an embarrassing younger sibling. You're essentially in their corner but they make you cringe about twice a week.

In my view it's already gone much further down that rabbit hole than you're suggesting - I'm not sure if I'm even in their corner anymore. The Guardian and the Huffington Post are two publications I used to have the utmost respect for in their quest to defend protesters, activists, privacy and free speech. In the last couple of years, both seem to be absolutely hellbent on following the SJW agenda and taking any opportunity to either ascribe the villain label to men or the victim label to women.

It's sad, really. These two papers provide a very valuable public service in covering issues of concern to ordinary people which the mainstream media neglects to mention - that both of the have jumped on the SJW bandwagon and sacrificed a lot of their principles in the process is something which as an activist I find deeply troubling.

There's an easy enough barometer for this, interestingly. As soon as a previously liberal publication begins to use the word "problematic" to describe art, expression or conversation which isn't 100% pc-sanitized, there's usually no going back and that publication has fallen into shadow.

suicide_circus

The correct term is "hoes"

beks101

Christ. I can think of one million things to get offended by as a female before being called a "girl" would be one of them.

Carlos Orange

efb wrote: »

I don't mean friends, thats why I used peers.

They also use girls to refer to groups of women they haven't met face to face and in some cases they haven't even talked to.

hatrickpatrick

Gamer Bhoy 89 wrote: »

I'll never forget when someone dismissed me with "you're not a man, you're only a chap" at the age of 24. The most emasculating thing I've ever heard spoken to me.

Seriously? Duuuuuude.

Summer wind

There's girls there's women and there's ladies
There's yes'es there's no's and there's maybes:)

These gob****es are lucky if this is all they've got to trouble them.

ProfessorPlum

When you're being wheeled down the corridor for your triple bypass surgery, and you pass your anaesthetist and cardiac surgeon, both female, and you feel it appropriate to exclaim "let's go girls" and feel that's OK, then you need to ask yourself where that line is. Like others have said, it's all about context. 2 grown women, senior politicians, with serious administrative roles, should never be referred to as 'girls', except maybe by their mothers and close friends. Shocking really that people in this day age don't appreciate that.

NachoBusiness

I love the way the journo of the article quotes Nicky Morgan (the UK's Equality Minster) as being "unimpressed" when paps said: "Morning Girls" to her but yet didn't also point out that she said: "Thank you" to them with a smile as she was walked off. So far from being unimpressed, one could easily argue that she was in fact, quite impressed.

Here's the clip the article was based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNNQcCPCMVY

One eyed Jack

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I really don't have much of a problem with it myself in general life but I can see how it could be offensive in a professional settting. I have a relation in quite a high powered job who refers to his female colleagues as "the girls". It's always "the girls had a great laugh at that", "ah the girls get awful upset now when there's a performance review so I never call it that when I'm talking to them" etc. It does seem condescending but to my shame from his comments I had always pictured him in a Mad Men-esque sort of office full of giddy young secretaries that he's carefully managing and trying not to upset. It wasn't a conscious notion, just what was conjured from the tales. Instead at a party there all the family were a bit shocked to find these "girls" were women in their 40s in high ranking positions,capable, sophisticated,very professional. Someone else actually mentioned "are these the "girls"???" to me with a laugh.

I think if you call women girls it's easier to tar them with these notions of needing to tread of eggshells and break things gently to them and in so doing easier to consider them weaker and less capable, sure you have to take care of the girls! In a professional capacity I would probably take umbrage at being referred to as "one of the girls".

Y'know, I've spent nearly my whole working life in mostly female environments (not by design, purely by circumstance) and I've worked with women both older and younger than me, and I never thought too much about whether I referred to them as ladies, girls, women, and then as I read your post I was thinking "Jesus yer man is a bit sad really", until I realised -

I could well be him

Relax Whimsical, I doubt we're related, but that last paragraph, definitely I would never think of any woman like that, and no woman has ever mentioned it to me either. I've also been known to call women by other, ahem, shall we say 'terms of endearment', but it's never been intended in a patronising eggshells or thinking women were less capable or any of the rest of it, quite the opposite in fact - admiration (but not in a putting women up on pedestals adulation kind of way)...


Jesus I'm getting awful paranoid with all this sexism stuff lately :pac:

Samaris

Good gods, I underestimated AH. I expected this thread to..well, I didn't expect it to be so...well...civilised.

As regards the article, yeah, it was inappropriate and fair play to them for smacking the cheeky photographer.

I don't mind "girls" in a social context. I'd be more likely to say "I'm going out to meet the girls" than "I'm going out to meet the women", same way as I'd say "I'm going out to meet the lads" rather than "men". Professionally though, one would really have to know your people well to know how to address them. The photographer certainly didn't know them well and had no right to ...basically catcall them. Those are mature women and deserve to be treated with more respect. Same as saying "alright there, lads!" to the Prime Minister would be inappropriate too.

Pat Mustard

Calling women “girls” is especially undermining and patronising in the workplace. People might say this is oversensitive (I am a woman after all), but in a world in which substantial pay inequality and glass ceilings still exist, language matters.

There’s a simple rule to test whether something is sexist: would the situation be the same if applied to a man and not a woman?

I cannot imagine a group of male senior executives referred to as “boys”, but it’s easy to conjure up “girls” in the reverse scenario.

England’s women’s football team – World Cup bronze medal winners no less – were frequently referred to as “girls” by pundits and commentators.

One might argue that male footballers are referred to as “lads” or “the boys”, which is true. But these terms are not so loaded.

Another bullsh1t article by the Guardian.

darkpagandeath

I get called "here mister" all the time. Never been called “here boy”

Samaris

I agree with some points you make there, Pat, and disagree with others.

I -can- imagine a group of male adults being called "boys", even in a professional context.

However, it's -not- got the same connotations. And the terms aren't quite so loaded. Thing is, someday we will probably be able to use these terms without any issues of background context, and no fear of misinterpretation. Someday, we will not need to be cautious of our words as regards a group of people, because there will be no underlying issues to be concerned about.

In short, just like in any other area of life, one should choose their words by what the other party is comfortable with, not just what oneself is comfortable with. You can make any comments you like in your own mind, but when speaking to and about another, it is mannerly to refer to them as they wish to be referred to. If a pair of mature, professional women do not wish to be referred to as "girls", then that's their prerogative, and to refer to them elseways is rude.

Liam O

Ha, I didn't actually see the clip until it was posted above, that's actually hilarious how surprised she seemed to be called girls. I think both parties were having a laugh and my already low respect for the article has been downgraded even further.

darkpagandeath

It's odd though the use of "Girls night out" same with men "Boys night out" where does line get drawn.

Samaris

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's odd though the use of "Girls night out" same with men "Boys night out" where does line get drawn.

It's drawn by connotation. I think both terms are more than just the gender of those going out, it's more to do with the purpose of it. If you're going on the pull with a group (of the same gender!) it's the "x" night out. Same if you're going out to do stereotypically male/female things. By the way, there's nothing -wrong- with doing those things. Just not all nights out with all females/males are about the stereotypes.

Sheesh. I reckon an awful lot of modern Western issues would be solved if we could just reckon that everyone is a person first, gender second. It's so damned childish that we talk so much about "women" and "men" like we're different species.

darkpagandeath

Samaris wrote: »

It's drawn by connotation. I think both terms are more than just the gender of those going out, it's more to do with the purpose of it. If you're going on the pull with a group (of the same gender!) it's the "x" night out. Same if you're going out to do stereotypically male/female things. By the way, there's nothing -wrong- with doing those things. Just not all nights out with all females/males are about the stereotypes.

Sheesh. I reckon an awful lot of modern Western issues would be solved if we could just reckon that everyone is a person first, gender second. It's so damned childish that we talk so much about "women" and "men" like we're different species.

Or not put connotations into the English language that are not there ? Call me Boy all you like no bother to me. I think people these days are looking to be offended for x y z reason.

NachoBusiness

I'm offended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1h1PrjUImE

BlackEdelweiss

My wife who is in her mid 30's still goes on girls night out, since we moved away she often says she misses all the girls, she goes for drinks with the girls from work plus lots of other instances involving the word girls while referring to middle aged women most of whom are older than her. And all her friends and workmates say the same things. Such a load of ****e!

darkpagandeath

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

My wife who is in her mid 30's still goes on girls night out, since we moved away she often says she misses all the girls, she goes for drinks with the girls from work plus lots of other instances involving the word girls while referring to middle aged women most of whom are older than her. And all her friends and workmates say the same things. Such a load of ****e!

My other half is in her mid 30s takes it as a badge of honour she got refused buying beer for me from the local offie.

One eyed Jack

Maybe these women just weren't members of the old boys network?

strelok

i think a more interesting question is trying to think of something feminists wouldn't get irrationally offended by


i'm going to go with cheese.

feminists love lactose.

Servebot

I usually refer to post adolescent females as women.

Day Lewin

Ah, here, lads....


I rest my case.

kylith

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

My wife who is in her mid 30's still goes on girls night out, since we moved away she often says she misses all the girls, she goes for drinks with the girls from work plus lots of other instances involving the word girls while referring to middle aged women most of whom are older than her. And all her friends and workmates say the same things. Such a load of ****e!

The difference is that one is self-identifying in a social context, and the other is being identified as a 'girl', with the immature connotations, in a professional setting.