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Dairy Farming General

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  • #9512
    keep going
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,551 ✭✭✭keep going


    A word of caution as regards the clover trial.first this is some of the abest land that exist in ideal l8cation for clover growth, they had problems getting rid of it in the blocks they didnt want it .secondly its not a trial on clover replacing nitrogen,all paddocks are receiving full nitrogen allowance and thirdly its a 5 year trial.clover always increased intakes the problem is it often lets you down when you need it most.the extra production did it come from extra dm produced or increased intakes


  • #9513
    Greengrass1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭Greengrass1


    Anyone see aidan brennan piece in the back of the ifj re fertiliser?
    Says if your on a 21 day round and spreading a bag of can behind cows it's too much
    what ye reckon?


  • #9514
    browned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 661 ✭✭✭browned


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    Moorepark sounded like a right day anyway but by fook acdc were worth missing it for!'.some performance for a bunch of auld lads!!
    Read last few bits Re the loosing 250 per cow if feeding over a tonne of meal ,love to know what there basing it on .im feeding over a tonne average,growing and utilising large amounts of grass with high volumes of milk and kg of solids with fertility .i ain't loosing money.is this one of Jackie kennedys attempts at dairy advice ???.stinks of lazy Tegasc advice that they read from a kiwi rag and a one size fits all approach .ditto the clover ,maby there getting results but clover aint worth a ****e in spring or back end on most Irish farms .tegasc and moorepark are great organisations ,moorepark in particular but a lot of stuff they come out with needs to be seriously questioned

    It's a shame they didn't give figure as to how they came up with their figures. From the book it's based on a group of farms with an average stocking rate of 2.35/ha producing 404kgsms with 9.6 tonnes utilised. Might be advice for the average farmer and not the top performing herd utilising large volumes of grass. Hard to know.
    I know it's fashionable to have a pop at jack Kennedy but in his defence he's not a teagasc employee as far as I know.

    The researchers I was talking to agree that it's useless in spring until temp reach 9c but not so much in the autumn. Their research is suggesting that when grass quality starts to tail off from mid summer onwards clover will compensate for the energy deficit which is usually supplements with ration on farms.


  • #9515
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    With research everything should be published, background and introduction, methods used, ongoing results and observations, and particularly with comparative research the control used to compare against and conclusions reached. One Issue they have is the deviations could be quite large as it would be difficult to get the scale to reduce them but at the same time possible deviations should also be explained in the conclusions. In the clover trial if they keep the.same groups of cows together and rotate them thru the different diets each year it could reduce the deviation the cows genetics could bring to the results but again not straight forward to do so


  • #9516
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    Will there be something published on what was went thru in moorepark to pick up or online?


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  • #9517
    mahoney_j
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,705 ✭✭✭✭mahoney_j


    Deepsouthwest wrote: »
    Surely the fertiliser companies would have a real vested interest in this, as they stand to lose the most if these clover trials prove to be successful in the long term.
    Can't understand a lot of the Teagasc slamming here sometimes. We have a superb research centre, arguably one of the best in the world, who is trying to sell NOTHING. Yet guys love having a go at them. Fair enough their trials and systems aren't for everyone, but their not forcing anyone to implement them.

    I'm one who always questions Tegasc,yes there a great organisation but I find there advice for a large part kiwi based with little taken into account of situations on Irish farms.we have stricter nitrates ,co co inspections ,different climate and cruicaly much smaller farms .the big bug bear I have is there one advice suits all farms ,big or small .profit and efficiency are key but much different ways of going about it on a say farm capable of milking 30to 100 cows and a farm with a couple of 100.the fact that some questioned that stand which implied that anyone feeding over a tonne of meal is loosing over 250 per cow and got wishy washy answers tells its own story


  • #9518
    mf240
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,890 ✭✭✭mf240


    Theres lies , damn lies and then theres statistics.

    In 09 teagasc were advising not to feed any meal . Despite the very wet year.

    Rolled barley that year was only costing 13 cent a kg in merchants.


  • #9519
    kowtow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Milked out wrote: »
    With research everything should be published, background and introduction, methods used, ongoing results and observations, and particularly with comparative research the control used to compare against and conclusions reached.

    To be fair most of the actual published research by Teagasc has quite robust statistical methodology disclosed - I suspect the loss / meal thing was a bit "off the cuff", or done to illustrate a point.

    I think they are a fantastic research institution and moore park is very impressive indeed. However - I have strong reservations about preaching a one size fits all business model into a free market, particularly when the risks aren't highlighted.

    It would be wonderful to eliminate risk but in a free market that is what we get paid for.


  • #9520
    browned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 661 ✭✭✭browned


    Where's this one model fits all line coming from.
    You have a Moorepark model based on a 40ha farm.
    You have greenfield's in Kilkenny and shinagh for large scale conversions.
    You have the heavy farms model for the 30-40% of heavy farms out there.
    You have Ballyhaise for the Northern boundary counties
    Johnstown has a winter milk model
    Next generation have a focus on high ebi HF
    Kilworth has a robotic milker model being developed 80 cow herds

    Granted They do seem to be lacking in research for small 30-40 cow herd


  • #9521
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    kowtow wrote: »
    To be fair most of the actual published research by Teagasc has quite robust statistical methodology disclosed - I suspect the loss / meal thing was a bit "off the cuff", or done to illustrate a point.

    I think they are a fantastic research institution and moore park is very impressive indeed. However - I have strong reservations about preaching a one size fits all business model into a free market, particularly when the risks aren't highlighted.

    It would be wonderful to eliminate risk but in a free market that is what we get paid for.

    I don't doubt for a second that the published research is robust. The problem is they present all research as having the same merit. ie a field trial will be given the same standing as a multi year published research project if it suits their agenda.

    I have great time for teagasc. I received huge assistance from my own adviser when getting back in as well as some very selfless help with an educational equivalence matter from regional and national offices. That said they have a fairly narrow point of view and many of the more senior people have a very condescending attitude to farmers. On more than one occasion I have heard teagasc personnel dismiss operations like mj's as being totally beyond the capacity of "ordinary" farmers. They won't even discuss these systems. Stans award was a real pain in the butt to them.


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  • #9522
    Blackgrass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Blackgrass


    Greengrass1 wrote: »
    +1 the grass based lads in England would love if they had an advisery service like teagasc and a research centre as good as moore park.
    All are implementing research done in moorepark and alot go and visit it

    There's bugger all research done in Uk and you need to take what is with a huge grain of salt as those doing it on subscription based don't like sharing unless paid up or otherwise you need someone to finance it and you'll rarely get info published that doesn't aaah go against the sponsor lets say ;). No real Govt back independent facilities really


  • #9523
    mahoney_j
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,705 ✭✭✭✭mahoney_j


    freedominacup wrote: »
    I don't doubt for a second that the published research is robust. The problem is they present all research as having the same merit. ie a field trial will be given the same standing as a multi year published research project if it suits their agenda.

    I have great time for teagasc. I received huge assistance from my own adviser when getting back in as well as some very selfless help with an educational equivalence matter from regional and national offices. That said they have a fairly narrow point of view and many of the more senior people have a very condescending attitude to farmers. On more than one occasion I have heard teagasc personnel dismiss operations like mj's as being totally beyond the capacity of "ordinary" farmers. They won't even discuss these systems. Stans award was a real pain in the butt to them.
    + 1000!!!.ps what I'm at is nothing exceptional ,I have a relatively small milk block and I have to make use of every acre of it as well as producing big volume but cruicaly also solids and not at the expense of fertility .i don't see what I'm at as rocket science ,it's fairly easily repeatable as long as you've an open mind to different ways of doing things and pursuing a different approach (slightly)as to what is preached .stans operation as well as your own and other guys like jays and Clydes to me is the target but without going the liquid route(unless a viable liquid quota is obtained ).but to also take the account of what someone like frazzled is achieving.


  • #9524
    tanko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,429 ✭✭✭tanko


    Heard the tail end of an interview with Simon Coveney earlier. I think I heard him say that there will be 300,000 more cows being milked in 5 years time than now. This seems very ambitious to me, is it realistic?


  • #9525
    browned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 661 ✭✭✭browned


    So where would the likes of Noel o toole fit in. on a limited milking platform producing 1585kg Ms/ha off a prodomantly grass based diet

    The only way teagasc can win is to have 17,000 trial farms. Once for every dairy farmer in the country


  • #9526
    jaymla627
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    tanko wrote: »
    Heard the tail end of an interview with Simon Coveney earlier. I think I heard him say that there will be 300,000 more cows being milked in 5 years time than now. This seems very ambitious to me, is it realistic?

    If you spread that number over every dairy farmer in the country it's actually only 17 cows a farm its not that ambitious a target when put into that context, the problems are going to arise on the processing side more so glanbia was at breaking point this year trying to process peak milk....
    I reckon seasonality penelties will come into play big time from next year to try and get guys to flatten their supply curves, it's something that hasn't been mentioned a whole lot but compact calving and 90% of herds calving in six weeks is going to put processors under serious pressure going forward if we do get this increase in cow numbers and not to forget alot of peak milk will have to go into powder a product which really has no premium on world markets


  • #9527
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    tanko wrote: »
    Heard the tail end of an interview with Simon Coveney earlier. I think I heard him say that there will be 300,000 more cows being milked in 5 years time than now. This seems very ambitious to me, is it realistic?

    Less than 20 cows per farm on average. I'd be shocked if that target isn't a small dot in the rear view mirror in five years. On average my discussion group is far ahead of that target this year.


  • #9528
    mahoney_j
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,705 ✭✭✭✭mahoney_j


    jaymla627 wrote: »
    If you spread that number over every dairy farmer in the country it's actually only 17 cows a farm its not that ambitious a target when put into that context, the problems are going to arise on the processing side more so glanbia was at breaking point this year trying to process peak milk....
    I reckon seasonality penelties will come into play big time from next year to try and get guys to flatten their supply curves, it's something that hasn't been mentioned a whole lot but compact calving and 90% of herds calving in six weeks is going to put processors under serious pressure going forward if we do get this increase in cow numbers and not to forget alot of peak milk will have to go into power a product which really has no premium on world markets

    Fook em ,most coops etc have suppliers paying for increased production facilities through revolving funds and share ups .


  • #9529
    jaymla627
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    Fook em ,most coops etc have suppliers paying for increased production facilities through revolving funds and share ups .

    It will be a matter of Fook the supplier in glanbia when they enforce their 16% rule on may/June milk, read a article concerning a English guy milking 600 odd cows who is supplying glanbia cheese over their he was operating a spring calving system with 90% of herd calved in Feb/March but had to change to starting calving in april due to the penelties he was been hit with


  • #9530
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    browned wrote: »
    Where's this one model fits all line coming from.
    You have a Moorepark model based on a 40ha farm.
    You have greenfield's in Kilkenny and shinagh for large scale conversions.
    You have the heavy farms model for the 30-40% of heavy farms out there.
    You have Ballyhaise for the Northern boundary counties
    Johnstown has a winter milk model
    Next generation have a focus on high ebi HF
    Kilworth has a robotic milker model being developed 80 cow herds

    Granted They do seem to be lacking in research for small 30-40 cow herd

    Ffs, will ye read that post. Every one is catered for. If ye can't see that then ye don't want to see it. A lot of the issue is with the nut running the farm. If you care to take a drive 5 miles any direction from ye're farms you'll see that there are a lot of average farms out there.

    Teagasc promote based on research suited to the Irish climate and soil.

    Roads
    Calve to suit soil
    Six wk in calf
    Measure and budget grass
    Ph p&k with reseeding
    Do not substitute grass with nuts rather feed when and how much is required
    Match SR to farm

    This is not Kiwi stuff its best practice, simple

    I don't care what cow you have this advise suits every cow. It's the farmer needs to change not the cow, she's been that way for millions of years.


  • #9531
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    Greengrass1 wrote: »
    Anyone see aidan brennan piece in the back of the ifj re fertiliser?
    Says if your on a 21 day round and spreading a bag of can behind cows it's too much
    what ye reckon?

    He is now a Journo with inches to fill.

    He suggested at a symposium in Kk this Spring that a P&K holiday would be a good way to control costs this year. When I asked to expand on his idea after I'd pointed out its folly he got a little stuck.


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  • #9532
    Greengrass1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭Greengrass1


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    He is now a Journo with inches to fill.

    He suggested at a symposium in Kk this Spring that a P&K holiday would be a good way to control costs this year. When I asked to expand on his idea after I'd pointed out its folly he got a little stuck.

    I tried 20 units 2 weeks ago on sone paddocks instead of usual 27 seeing as sr was down to 3
    hard to tell tbh seeing as growrh has slipped but we're back at the 27 units now


  • #9533
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    Greengrass1 wrote: »
    I tried 20 units 2 weeks ago on sone paddocks instead of usual 27 seeing as sr was down to 3
    hard to tell tbh seeing as growrh has slipped but we're back at the 27 units now

    What reason did he give for it being too much?


  • #9534
    Greengrass1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭Greengrass1


    Milked out wrote: »
    What reason did he give for it being too much?

    HIs point was you would be creating surplus which there would be no point in if you had enough silage
    still I like to control my grass instead of running into deficits which would happen


  • #9535
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    frazzledhome wrote: »
    He is now a Journo with inches to fill.

    He suggested at a symposium in Kk this Spring that a P&K holiday would be a good way to control costs this year. When I asked to expand on his idea after I'd pointed out its folly he got a little stuck.

    Whatever about a complete holiday there's some merit in letting the taxman pay for raising your indexes. If you are generally doing a good job on soil fertility maintenance only in a low price year may be an idea. It can be bought in a high price year, doesn't necessarily have to be spread.


  • #9536
    frazzledhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,278 ✭✭✭frazzledhome


    freedominacup wrote: »
    Whatever about a complete holiday there's some merit in letting the taxman pay for raising your indexes. If you are generally doing a good job on soil fertility maintenance only in a low price year may be an idea. It can be bought in a high price year, doesn't necessarily have to be spread.

    Sorry Free whatever I'd cut it wouldn't be that. Simply with Nitrate Regs it is impossible to replace what the lorry takes daily. The only way is to mine it from outside land but on a fully stocked farm your creating a tail spin.

    I think tax needs to be planned on a longer term basis than what a few lorries of 10-10-20 can do for you.


  • #9537
    Greengrass1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭Greengrass1


    jaymla627 wrote: »
    If you spread that number over every dairy farmer in the country it's actually only 17 cows a farm its not that ambitious a target when put into that context, the problems are going to arise on the processing side more so glanbia was at breaking point this year trying to process peak milk....
    I reckon seasonality penelties will come into play big time from next year to try and get guys to flatten their supply curves, it's something that hasn't been mentioned a whole lot but compact calving and 90% of herds calving in six weeks is going to put processors under serious pressure going forward if we do get this increase in cow numbers and not to forget alot of peak milk will have to go into powder a product which really has no premium on world markets

    I'm not so sure on that one jay.
    We're 30% autumn calvers here and we supply 16% of our milk this yr in may and June and always have.
    Autumn calving has very little influence on our peak here.

    We're considering getting rid of autumn calving and just milk on.


  • #9538
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    Greengrass1 wrote: »
    I'm not so sure on that one jay.
    We're 30% autumn calvers here and we supply 16% of our milk this yr in may and June and always have.
    Autumn calving has very little influence on our peak here.

    We're considering getting rid of autumn calving and just milk on.

    I'd say it's when your supply would be 16% of litres in one month gg that penalties would kick in as in 16% in may or JunE not over 2 months


  • #9539
    Timmaay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,396 ✭✭✭✭Timmaay


    Greengrass1 wrote: »
    I'm not so sure on that one jay.
    We're 30% autumn calvers here and we supply 16% of our milk this yr in may and June and always have.
    Autumn calving has very little influence on our peak here.

    We're considering getting rid of autumn calving and just milk on.

    The talk with glanbia was 16% of just June's supply, but that alongside the 2 cent "expansion levy" both got scrapped when strathroy put the squeeze on glanbia! Small fraction of autumn calving here, but even still we'll do over 15% of the years milk in June, it's too many April may calvers in our case, who are full pelt for June.


  • #9540
    Greengrass1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭Greengrass1


    Milked out wrote: »
    I'd say it's when your supply would be 16% of litres in one month gg that penalties would kick in as in 16% in may or JunE not over 2 months

    Sorry didn't phrase that right
    we supplied 16% of our annual supply in may
    and another 16% of our anual supply in june


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  • #9541
    jaymla627
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Timmaay wrote: »
    The talk with glanbia was 16% of just June's supply, but that alongside the 2 cent "expansion levy" both got scrapped when strathroy put the squeeze on glanbia! Small fraction of autumn calving here, but even still we'll do over 15% of the years milk in June, it's too many April may calvers in our case, who are full pelt for June.

    They have it wrote into contract about changing terms like the 16% at a months notice, lorry driver here was having to do 19 hour days at one stage such was the waiting times at ballyragget, that's not sustainable another 10 % say increase on peak supply over this year and glanbia would be off - loading milk to other processors at a fair rate if they could get them to even take it


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