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Notwork Error wrote: »My post.
Hey people!:)
I quite like it. I'd tend to disagree on it being session heavy, I wouldn't define hill sprints as a workout as such because the volume is low and recovery is pretty quick. If it was mile repeats and a tempo in one week, I'd say differently but I feel the plan is quite light on workouts and I'd recommend moving up to the 980m loop at some stage because you will get used to running the 650s and as you get faster, you will have more time to recover in 6 minutes which you don't really want, the session will get easier as you improve so at some point, "moving on up";) will be the best thing you can do to improve inregards speed endurance. I'd agree with Clearliers assessment about the benefits but there has to some fun and camraderie thrown in too.
I'd agree with Meno about the tempo's. A pretty decent guide is that a tempo run that takes 40-60+minutes should be done around MP. 40 minutes and below should beyour normal tempo pace which I think would be the best type of run for you to do if you are already incorporating MP running in your long runs. One thing of note on that, I wouldn't have a tempo run the same week as a race or long run with MP wgich you have a few times, your normal speed session would be a better fit there. Alternating the tempo run with weeks you aren't doing a race or MP long run. Early in the plan, It might be better to start your tempo run at 25 mins and build it up to 30, 35, and cap it there.
I would also cutback the mileage the week of the half, no need to do an extra 6 miles that day on top of an already tough effort. Bigger cutback weeks might be a good idea early in the plan too as you want to get those mileage adaptions to sink in early which will help with the bigger load down the road. Don't be afraid to cutback the MLR on cutback weeks.
I don't think there is much change needed to the structure, somebody's been studying!;)That would be my take on it anyway.
Ah, we are close enough all in all
I am sure we can come together for some kind of agreement
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Ah, we are close enough all in all
I am sure we can come together for some kind of agreement
I think we probably can ..
I am *proud* to say have 2 weeks with 0 sessions/tempos/races/MPmiles, and 4 weeks with just 1 of those. So far ...
For both of you, I did 19miles around DCHM last year (1.5miles from bus to PP, then race, then 4.5miles home). And honestly felt fine .... but my training was not exactly perfect last year so I will see how I feel in August.
Any praise for the general structure should go to Clearlier who saw an earlier version of this when I was planning for Paris.
Will reply to other comments later but I think I have to do some work ...
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Having a closer look at the details now. First of all thanks to Clearlier for the earlier pass last year. Thanks to commenters for liking the overall structure.
One extra thing ..... even though the plan might seem a bit intense my training in May/early-June was similar in mileage to the first 5 weeks here (and I was also having 2 "hard" efforts like race+repeats some weeks). So I have a bit of experience. Anyway ... I have made a *few* changes.
The four 20+ long runsPerhaps the attempt to do 4 20+ long runs in a row at the end might be a bit much though. I would go with at least 1 down week between them. If you are worried about endurance perhaps put an extra one in earlier in the plan??
Ah yeah, I chopped the second-last one of those to 17miles now. I'm going to reserve the right to reinstate it if some of the other 20+ don't get done (I don't really believe I have 16weeks, I'm expecting to miss at least at week or two to virus/cough stuff ..)
parkrun in the first week
I dropped the parkrun from the first week (-16) altogether
*sniff* (not a cold if anyone is wondering, different kind of sniff)
The HM 19miler ...Also not to nitpick but don't worry getting in an extra 6 miles in before/after the HM. Concentrate on racing a good half and not hitting 19 miles. so maybe just an easy 1-2 mile warmup and a mile or two after if you are up for it (I never am!!)Notwork Error wrote: »I would also cutback the mileage the week of the half, no need to do an extra 6 miles that day on top of an already tough effort. Bigger cutback weeks might be a good idea early in the plan too as you want to get those mileage adaptions to sink in early which will help with the bigger load down the road.
OK .. I did succeed in doing a 19miler around DCHM last year; but at that time overall mileage was less of course. So I'll take the advice and aim for 2miles-before, 2miles after. Done on the plan now.
The strides/hillsprintsI'd have to agree with him and I know nothing about anything! why the hill sprints and strides the day after a session as a matter of interestStrides and hillsprints are great and it is fine to do them the day after a session (strides more so than hills) but I have found a few times that I haven't been able to do them properly after a tough session because my legs were just too tight/sore.Notwork Error wrote: »I wouldn't define hill sprints as a workout as such because the volume is low and recovery is pretty quick.
I think apart from the strides/hills sprints being light themselves, I don't find the 5x650ms too hard on the body (at least not in terms of affecting the next day), and that's the typical Tuesday session. So I will leave the Wednesdays as they are but can always stick the strides/sprints on Saturday if I ever feel I need to.
too many sessions?My Initial reaction is that it is a bit too 'session heavy'. You seem to have at least 2 sessions per week as well as a long run (or else one session and MP miles in the long run) which I feel might be a bit too much for a plan averaging 40ish miles per week.
I'd be inclined to only do one session per week + a long run. That could be a tempo, parkrun, intervals or an MP long run.
Ok, so this is the controversial one ..... Meno wraps up tempo/repeats/race/LSRwithMP into one group of "hard runs". So ... not quite as bad as it looks, right now (after dropping 1 parkrun) there are 2 weeks with no hard runs, 5 weeks with one hard run and yes ... 9 weeks with 2 hard runs, I admit it.
I can probably live with chopping back a wee bit more. Didn't do anything yet and I'll explain why.... NE seemed unconcerned about the repeats (and I don't feel these take too much from my legs), but he/meno agree better not to have "tempo" and "LSR with MP"/race the same week (and there are three of those). Anyway, I was going to move two of the "tempos" into adjacent weeks (weeks with 0 hard runs) and then I noticed that if I do that I bring the tempo right up within 2 days of a prior race .... which seems less than ideal. Basically in the "weeks of 2 hard runs" the tempo on Tuesday is far away from the LSR with MP which is not till Sunday (and there was no hard run the weekend before).
I'm overcomplicating matters with these details but what I mean is that the tempos in weeks -15 and -7 are in better places (fairly *good* places) than it might seem from looking at the week as a standalone.
I kind-of expect that a couple extra of the repeat workouts will get dropped due to "life" (the tempos are substitutes for dates I already know I can't make) and I may decide not to replace them with tempos/repeats-by-myself when that happens. Which would lighten things a small bit.
the temposI also like combining my session with my weekly MLR, especially when doing tempo runs. So It could be 2/3 warmup, 7/8 tempo (MP) 2/3 cool down. I think when you are doing 6-7-8 mile tempos don't try to do them much faster than PMP.Notwork Error wrote: »Alternating the tempo run with weeks you aren't doing a race or MP long run. Early in the plan, It might be better to start your tempo run at 25 mins and build it up to 30, 35, and cap it there.
In that plan "6 mile tempo" means 1mile w/u, 4miles tempo, 1mile c/d. So at 10k pace tempo that's about 32mins fast ... for a longer tempo of 7miles (5 fast) I'll was planning to take the fast pace down to around HM pace.
I saw those MLRs with pace on your plan, meno. I think they look nice and they are very marathon appropriate, but I'm not sure yet I'm able to handle them (mentally). There is something very simple about putting the speed on Tuesday and keeping it there always ....
the repeatsNotwork Error wrote: »I feel the plan is quite light on workouts and I'd recommend moving up to the 980m loop at some stage because you will get used to running the 650s and as you get faster, you will have more time to recover in 6 minutes which you don't really want, the session will get easier as you improve so at some point.
I agree. And already the >3min recovery is more than I need. Just not sure there will be enough recovery yet if I jump to the longer lap ... when I get 2:40 for the 650s then I'll move up!
I not sure even meno and NE can have survived to the bottom of this post .... Was even a bit of torture writing it
so apologies to anyone subscribed on the log. Also sorry the cutting-down has been so grudging :rolleyes: ... 0 -
Well you did want some attention
Personally, I'm happy to be following a plan that has already gone through years of discussion
My amateur 2 cents on the hill sprints -- if you do the really short ones (6 x 8-10 secs) as prescribed by Clearlier, they really take nothing out of you and are invigorating.0 -
Well you did want some attention
Personally, I'm happy to be following a plan that has already gone through years of discussion
My amateur 2 cents on the hill sprints -- if you do the really short ones (6 x 8-10 secs) as prescribed by Clearlier, they really take nothing out of you and are invigorating.
They were Clearlier's suggestion, and I think he said "no more than 15secs" at the time. And the same is true of the strides ... little bit of speed/technique, hardly notice it!
I think your meno plan is a good one, and the sessions are much more marathon-appropriate than what I'll be doing ... to some extent I'm sticking-to-what-I-know this time, to make sure I get the runs in without too much agonising.0 -
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My only advice is not to feel under pressure to do certain workouts or to flog yourself to hit certain paces just because it is now written down in 'the plan'. There will be good and bad days and you won't always run as fast as you want but that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Ah no I won't feel constrained too much by it. Sometimes the way I get myself out the door is by allowing myself to do a steady run instead of a session, or by decreasing hill content etc. That's the reason I ditched P&D so quickly after seeing some of the detail ....Good luck with it.
Thank you! fingers crossed I will make the start line!0 -
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Fair play to you for addressing all feedback and tweaking plan as advised by the more knowledgeable amongst us. Show us the new spreadsheet so so I've another one to save down
Same link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cFyfj-X7_qXYT8NHewjmIUi90Hn_9k6if077fxv9dko/edit#gid=0
Only tweaks so far, the only other thing is that the yellow stuff may change slightly in the execution of this. Just one parkrun there now ....
Have done very similar to weeks -16,..., -13 already back in May/early-June. So the initial weeks at least are for sure within my capabilities, we'll see about the rest 0 -
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hillsiderunner wrote: »In "cough-issues"? :rolleyes:
For the second marathon you should use "the meno plan" tbh (assuming you do not have Tuesday intervals to go to!). It's better than this one, but I'm trying to fit to the shape of my week ...
(coughs actually quiet at the moment though)
that's great
All the advice etc on why X should be done this way or why Y only works in certain circumstances is good. Until last year I just went out and ran, so am still learning about paces/sessions/hill sprints etc etc. I'll be looking at marathon plans next year so this is all really interesting between you and Anna too.0 -
that's great
All the advice etc on why X should be done this way or why Y only works in certain circumstances is good. Until last year I just went out and ran, so am still learning about paces/sessions/hill sprints etc etc. I'll be looking at marathon plans next year so this is all really interesting between you and Anna too.
Same here, FD, I have to say even doing a little bit of a session once a week has made a huge difference to me. Now, the marathon is a different beast but the Meno plan has worked really well for others here. I'm aghast really when I think about attempting to do DCM last year on the base that I had... no wonder it was a nightmare. 0 -
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Bungy Girl wrote: »Taking in AAAALLLLLL in
I looked back at my training for 2007.....
It's actually a wonder I didn't permanently injure myself. The prep for 2016 starts now !
2007 you say, what's your Maiden name then? 0 -
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Bungy Girl wrote: »Aquinn with your finely tuned internet stalking skills, you tell me :P
either starts with G, L, H, Mc, or O'S?? 0 -
Bungy Girl wrote: »Taking in AAAALLLLLL in
I looked back at my training for 2007.....
It's actually a wonder I didn't permanently injure myself. The prep for 2016 starts now !
*imagines a 2007 full of races and sessions*
I also had a lot of badgering advice about pace last year when I was on the Novices thread for a while. It's painful to be looking ahead to 16weeks with only one parkrun, but there'll be less nagging (not to mention that it would *seem* from those comments that came in, that it would be ok to substitute parkrun some week I can't do the repeats ) 0 -
hillsiderunner wrote: »*imagines a 2007 full of races and sessions*
I also had a lot of badgering advice about pace last year when I was on the Novices thread for a while. It's painful to be looking ahead to 16weeks with only one parkrun, but there'll be less nagging (not to mention that it would *seem* from those comments that came in, that it would be ok to substitute parkrun some week I can't do the repeats )
I did a couple of parkruns in the run up to London at the behest of the TRR planso you are OK :pac:
Yes I just skipped my Thursday sessions when I was doing this (Thursday sessions were generally mile repeats, my fastest session of the week). The only issue was that you would have to do your longrun on a Sunday on very tired legs (so don't be adding PMP miles to those LSRs). The day after a race I would do my Long run ridiculously easy; more than 2 minutes/mile slower than PMP at times . 0 -
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I did a couple of parkruns in the run up to London at the behest of the TRR planso you are OK :pac:
Yes I just skipped my Thursday sessions when I was doing this (Thursday sessions were generally mile repeats, my fastest session of the week). The only issue was that you would have to do your longrun on a Sunday on very tired legs (so don't be adding PMP miles to those LSRs). The day after a race I would do my Long run ridiculously easy; more than 2 minutes/mile slower than PMP at times .
No I was thinking myself I wouldn't ever do that if there were MP miles the next day.. and I've turned over a new leaf since 2014 (;)), it's not like I was thinking of a lots of parkruns .. just maybe an extra one if there was a clear week.Plus you're in Edinburgh, so who would know... surely nobody here would go to the trouble of looking up foreign parkrun results...
I'd run and tell I think anyway. Gosh from that comment you'd almost think you were trying to imagine ways of doing secret parkruns :rolleyes:0 -
The first running after "the ribs" was the week before last, Wednesday and Thursday, both done running around the grass borders of the playing fields of my local park.
Wednesday, 24th June: 5miles @10:28pace
Thursday, 25th June: 6.5miles @10:05pace (lashing rain)
Pretty sure the slower pace was mostly due to the grass underfoot rather than missed training. Definitely harder work than on cement or tarmac. I'd thought grass was the perfect surface to keep the ribs from getting upset, but they got worse after Thursday and I had to stop the running again. It had probably been too early to start running at all I think.
Saturday, 27th June: 35miles cycle
Ribs still definitely to sore to run on. Cycling seemed ok since there's no impact or twisting, so I headed out East along the coast on my bicycle to get a bit of cardio in. Nice evening for it.
Physio on Monday and I was given a bit of tissue massage, a few exercises to do, and the rule of 5miles every second day. Also confirmed it was ok to cycle as much as I wanted.
Monday, 29th June: 5.23miles accidental progression run @8:48 avg pace
I went out with the idea of doing something between easy and steady pace. First mile was as it should be at 9:38, then the next one came in a bit faster at 9:08. Then about half-way in mile 3 I looked at my watch and saw a faster pace again ... and the germ of an idea was planted, I would try to bring that one in another 30secs below the mile 2 pace... and I did - 8:36. Then I got stuck into mile 4 and despite pushing on this I was surprised to bring it in at 7:42, nearly a whole minute off the previous one. Probably the few days off had given my legs a boost. Final mile and a bit at a slower pace ...
[9:38, 9:08, 8:36, 7:42, 8:50, .23 @8:49]
Nothing like the rush of a 7:xx min mile after a bunch of slower ones.
Tuesday, 30th June: 15-20 miles social cycle
Wednesday, 1st July: 5.25miles easy (untimed) run
Friday, 3rd July: 5.3miles easy run @9:40 avg pace
Laaaaaate night run and I got some clapping from a few people out on the street from a house party, and later another small round of applause from people leaving a pub.
Saturday, 4th July: 45miles cycle
Decided to get in another long cycle and that I'd go further along the coast this time, all the way to North Berwick. Set off in late afternoon, and had a good cycle out with a mixture of cloud and sun ... loads of poppies on the cycle paths near the sea, a bunch of people fishing about 8miles out, golf courses bordering the road as I got further out (advertising the Scottish Open next week) .. was enjoying everything most of the way out, but the last few miles into North Berwick were a bit harder. I had brought sandwiches along so I bought a latte when I got into town and sat on the sea wall for about 30 mins looking out at the beach - still people lying out even though it was after 7pm by now.... I was thinking to myself that if the running was still going to be rationed next week, that I could go even further along the coast and do a 55miler the weekend after :rolleyes:. This feeling did not last.
Then I got on my bike for the cycle back into town, and straight away it felt harder. Maybe a very minor bit of headwind, maybe a very slight incline in places, I'm not sure ... those first 10 miles on the return leg were tough. I started feeling a bit better once I'd made more progress towards town. There was a woman out on her porch when I stopped at a traffic lights about 10miles from home, and I must have looked a bit wrecked because she said "You're doing great", and then we had a chat about where I'd been/was-heading. The good weather has everyone in a supportive mood. Then back onto the bike paths for the final section, past the poppies, lovely little birds flying round. I added a small little detour at the end to make it 45miles and got back to my flat as the sun was coming down.
All the same I won't be planning on 55 miles next weekend even if I'm still in rehab. No way.
Sunday, 5th July: 6.3miles steady run @9:00 pace
Very tired this morning, but I started to pick up around lunchtime. And there was no way I wasn't going to use my "every second day". So I went out with the idea of something between easy and steady pace. The 9:00 pace I did is close to MP pace for me .... but I'm not calling it an MP run because it felt a good bit harder, especially for the later miles. My legs actually felt wobbly when I met a medium-size hill around 4.5miles (a hill I normally have no trouble with). I managed to resist the urge to walk though. The effort was consistent all the way through ... and the pace quickened a bit as the run progressed. But this was *tough*. I would bet this is the effects of yesterday's cycle.
weekly total: 22miles
Hit the end of June during the week so here are the stats:
Runs|12
Sessions|2
Long Runs|2
Races|0
parkruns|1
Month|2013|2014|2015
January|55|85|70
February|69|9|96
March|53|57|134
April|85|61|85
May|65|71|145
June|51|43|89
July|25|99
August|84|120
September|18|131
October|83|0
November|78|3
December|53|56
Total|719|735|619
Tomorrow is a rest-day from running and a visit to the physio. Hoping I'll get permission to get back to a proper running schedule.0 -
Have been to the physio and had mobilisation done on my back, *and* permission to attempt all of this week, even the intervals. I am to see how the intervals go, and then see how I get on doing the midweek runs back-to-back. If all goes well I can do the weekend as planned, if I have a bit of re-niggling, I have to scale the LSR down to 8miles. Still will be going back for another appointment in 10 days.
week 1/16
| plan | actual
Mon | - | enjoying this
Tue | 5miles incl 5x650m |
Wed | 5miles + 5 hill sprints |
Thu | 6miles easy|
Fri | - |
Sat| 4miles easy |
Sun | 12miles LSR |
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