Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

Deedsie · 25-06-2015 1:56pm

kenmc wrote: »

Well that's only true as long as it is the law, and not some notion of the law that a guard might mistakenly believe or randomly make up, which is upheld. I'm thinking specifically of those who think you have to cycle on a cycle track, even though that was repealed in 2012.

Oh and as long as they uphold the law evenly amongst all road users and don't go for the low hanging fruit as a money making exercise.

(FWIW I stop for red and don't cycle on the path.)

That could be said for any law? If I buy an item but a Garda accuses me of stealing it and mistakenly arrests me? You can only do your best to not break the law and appeal if you fee you are being mistreated?

In a case like that the law is an ass. And I would certainly be appealing any fine in such a case. I am sure the Garda would accept he was wrong when the newer legislation is pointed out to them?

kenmc · 25-06-2015 1:57pm

Deedsie wrote: »

That could be said for any law? If I buy an item but a Garda accuses me of stealing it and mistakenly arrests me? You can only do your best to not break the law and appeal if you fee you are being mistreated?

In a case like that the law is an ass. And I would certainly be appealing any fine in such a case. I am sure the Garda would accept he was wrong when the newer legislation is pointed out to them?

I think you have more faith in them than me alas

Fian · 25-06-2015 4:15pm

kenmc wrote: »

I think you have more faith in them than me alas

And I suspect less experience....

kenmc · 25-06-2015 5:04pm

Fian wrote: »

And I suspect less experience....

what you talkin about Willis? I hope you're not saying I'm "known to the gardai?"

SilverLiningOK · 25-06-2015 5:13pm

Cyclist.ie have today written to Pascal Donohoe Minister of Transport requesting delay in introduction of these fines - http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/proposed-fixed-charge-notices-cycling-offences

check_six · 25-06-2015 5:27pm

SilverLiningOK wrote: »

Cyclist.ie have today written to Pascal Donohoe Minister of Transport requesting delay in introduction of these fines - http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/proposed-fixed-charge-notices-cycling-offences

Any idea why? I don't think the website mentions it.

rubadub · 25-06-2015 5:38pm

check_six wrote: »

Any idea why? I don't think the website mentions it.

There is a link to the letter. One issue was asking for allowing cyclists to break red lights in a reasonable manner, which most I see do, same as pedestrians.

In the US several states allow motorbikes to break red lights let alone bicycles.

http://cincinnaticaferacer.com/2013/12/02/ohio-should-allow-motorcyclists-to-legally-run-red-lights/

States with safe-on-red laws

Arkansas – In effect since 2005, state law allows a motorcyclist to proceed with caution, after coming to a full and complete stop, through a red light that fails to detect the bike. (Arkansas Code section 27-52-206)

Idaho – (2006) If a signal fails to operate after one cycle of the traffic light that a motorcyclist may proceed, using due caution and care, after coming to a full and complete stop at the intersection. (Statute 49-802)

Illinois – (2012) Permits a driver of a motorcycles or bicycle facing a red light that fails to change within a reasonable period of time of not less than 120 seconds to proceed after yielding the right-of-way to any oncoming traffic. However, this law doesn’t apply to municipalities of over 2,000,000 people – such as Chicago. (625 ILCS 5/11-306)

Minnesota – (2002) A person operating a bicycle or motorcycle who runs a red light has an affirmative defense if the driver first came to a complete stop, the traffic light stayed red for an unreasonable amount of time and appeared not to detect the vehicle and no motor vehicles or people were approaching the street. (Statute 169.06)

Missouri – (2009) State law tells both motorcyclists and bicyclists that run red lights that they have an affirmative defense if they brought their vehicle to a complete stop, the light was red for an unreasonable time period, and there were no motor vehicle or person approaching. (Statute 304.285)

Nevada – (2013) Those using motorcycles, bicycles, mopeds, and tri-mobiles are allowed to proceed through an intersection with a red light after waiting for two traffic light cycles, and they yield to other vehicle traffic or pedestrians. (Statute 484B.307)

North Carolina – (2007) Motorcyclists are permitted to move cautiously through a steady red light after coming to a complete stop and waiting a minimum of three minutes and if no other vehicle or pedestrians are approaching the intersection. (NCGS 20-158)

Oklahoma – (2010) Motorcycles can proceed cautiously through a steady red light intersection after a making a complete stop and if no other motor vehicle or person is approaching the roadway. (Statute 47-11-202)

South Carolina – (2008) After making a complete stop and waiting for a minimum of 120 seconds, the driver of a motorcycle, moped, or bicycle may treat a steady red light that doesn’t change as a stop sign and proceed with caution. (S.C. Code 56-5-970)

Tennessee – (2003) After coming to a complete stop, motorcyclists and bicyclists may proceed through a steady red light when it is safe to do so. (Tennessee Traffic Control Signals 55-8-110)

Virginia – (2011) Drivers of motorcycles, mopeds, and bicycles may move with caution through non-responsive red lights as long as they yield the right-of-way to others approaching the intersection, and have come to a complete stop for two complete light cycles or 120 seconds, whichever is shorter.(Statute 46-2-833)

Wisconsin – (2006) A motorcycle, moped or bicycle is permitted to run a steady red light after making a complete stop and waiting at least 45 seconds and then yields the right–of-way to any vehicular traffic or pedestrians using the intersection. (Statute 346.37)

In early 2013, Nebraska introduced Bill LB 85 proposing a safe-on-red law, but the bill currently has a status of “indefinitely postponed.”

Most gardai do already appear to allow this, as they are sensible and know why the law was actually made, and what it actually set out to prevent. Unlike the moaning and likely hypocritcal <bad word snipped> who will illegally jaywalk yet scream about someone on a mode of transport they are not using doing the same.

tomasrojo · 01-07-2015 2:20pm

Cycling on footpaths removed from planned on-the-spot fines

“I’m not going to change the status quo,” Minister Donohoe said. “I’m aware of circumstances where an adult could be with a minor who is on a bike and they are … on a footpath” for the child’s safety.”

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/01/cycling-on-footpaths-removed-from-planned-on-the-spot-fines/

My initial reaction is that bundling obnoxious footpath cycling in with unsafe cycling FPNs is indeed a better idea.

tomasrojo · 01-07-2015 2:22pm

Half my posts now seem to include a link to irishcycle.com. It is indefatigable.

Rakish Paddy · 01-07-2015 6:00pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Cycling on footpaths removed from planned on-the-spot fines

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/01/cycling-on-footpaths-removed-from-planned-on-the-spot-fines/

My initial reaction is that bundling obnoxious footpath cycling in with unsafe cycling FPNs is indeed a better idea.

Would a more sensible approach not be to make it an automatic offence for anyone above the age of 18 (just an example - the age should probably be lower) to cycle on the footpath. Excluding it as a specific offence sounds like a climbdown to avoid having to enforce it.

I generally walk approximately 40 mins to and from work on the north side of Dublin, and most days could count between 10 and 20 people cycling on the footpath on my route each way. The worst blackspots are the footpath and platforms along the Luas line between Heuston and Smithfield, then again all along Amiens St. On the south side, if you walk the length of the pedestrian part of Grafton Street at any time of day you will not get from one end to the other without encountering at least a few cyclists, and likewise with the footpath around the perimeter of St. Stephen's Green. I don't have scientific data to back it up, but of the three 'big ones' (cycling on the footpath, breaking red lights and cycling the wrong way on a one-way street), I notice more footpath cycling than anything else. It's a massive nuisance in general (ask anyone who walks daily in Dublin city centre) and a danger especially to anyone who's not able to move fast enough to get out of the way of a rogue footpath cyclist.

I really think the Gardaí need to come down hard to deter footpath cycling as it really is now badly out of hand in Dublin, and I could be wrong but the wording being reported sounds like it's providing an excuse to continue with the current non-enforcement.

I don't accept the argument that 'The roads are too dangerous - it's safer to cycle on the footpath'. While the roads may be scary and dangerous and cycling infrastructure may be lousy, if you're not up to cycling on the roads then either walk or take public transport. Cycling on the footpath should not be considered by anyone to be a valid option for an adult and offenders should be fined in a consistent manner.

monument · 01-07-2015 6:36pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Half my posts now seem to include a link to irishcycle.com. It is indefatigable.

Thanks. Your cheque is in the post. Don't tell the mods.

RainyDay · 01-07-2015 8:46pm

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Would a more sensible approach not be to make it an automatic offence for anyone above the age of 18 (just an example - the age should probably be lower) to cycle on the footpath. Excluding it as a specific offence sounds like a climbdown to avoid having to enforce it.

I generally walk approximately 40 mins to and from work on the north side of Dublin, and most days could count between 10 and 20 people cycling on the footpath on my route each way. The worst blackspots are the footpath and platforms along the Luas line between Heuston and Smithfield, then again all along Amiens St. On the south side, if you walk the length of the pedestrian part of Grafton Street at any time of day you will not get from one end to the other without encountering at least a few cyclists, and likewise with the footpath around the perimeter of St. Stephen's Green. I don't have scientific data to back it up, but of the three 'big ones' (cycling on the footpath, breaking red lights and cycling the wrong way on a one-way street), I notice more footpath cycling than anything else. It's a massive nuisance in general (ask anyone who walks daily in Dublin city centre) and a danger especially to anyone who's not able to move fast enough to get out of the way of a rogue footpath cyclist.

I really think the Gardaí need to come down hard to deter footpath cycling as it really is now badly out of hand in Dublin, and I could be wrong but the wording being reported sounds like it's providing an excuse to continue with the current non-enforcement.

I don't accept the argument that 'The roads are too dangerous - it's safer to cycle on the footpath'. While the roads may be scary and dangerous and cycling infrastructure may be lousy, if you're not up to cycling on the roads then either walk or take public transport. Cycling on the footpath should not be considered by anyone to be a valid option for an adult and offenders should be fined in a consistent manner.

I agree with you in principle, except that when I'm cycling with my kids who are on the path, I really have to cycle on the path too, as I'm going way too slow to be safe on the road.

Maybe an exclusion for adults cycling with kids...

barrymanilow · 01-07-2015 9:40pm

Burning Bridges wrote: »

Anyone any experience of the Parisian situation , where cycling through red lights is allowed because it makes it safer?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097882/Paris-allow-cyclists-run-red-lights-bid-cut-accidents.html

I completely agree , when I'm at the front of the cue at a red and I see the way is clear I always go for it . It means the traffic behind doesn't have to wait for me to accelerate . I can get well clear and I'm more visible taking off down the empty road ahead and able to move faster up the next junction too.Cars have to deal with me a lot less . Also on certain narrow roads in Limerick its far safer for me to mount the footpath for a while and let heavy vehicles or buses go. That's when I have checked its clear of course and safe to do so . Hopefully with that footpath law will come better cycle lanes but I wouldn't count on it !

oakley2097 · 01-07-2015 11:38pm

Cyclist should be on the road

If the traffic is too fast in cities (yes, it is) it should be slowed to 30kph with minimum passing distance so that all rider feel (are) safe

Cycle lanes will never go everywhere, why bother with a half fix

tomasrojo · 01-07-2015 11:50pm

As a courtesy, even if it were not illegal, I think when there are pedestrians on a footpath, cyclists should not cycle there, but rather wheel the bike, if they really need to progress that way.

However, objectively speaking, cycling slowly on relatively uncrowded or deserted footpaths with good sight lines is not a major problem, so I think it's appropriate that it should not be included in the Fixed-Penalty Notices. If someone is doing some really obnoxious footpath cycling, there is the option to issue a FPN for inconsiderate cycling (or whatever they're going to call it).

KingBrian2 · 01-07-2015 11:58pm

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Would a more sensible approach not be to make it an automatic offence for anyone above the age of 18 (just an example - the age should probably be lower) to cycle on the footpath. Excluding it as a specific offence sounds like a climbdown to avoid having to enforce it.

I generally walk approximately 40 mins to and from work on the north side of Dublin, and most days could count between 10 and 20 people cycling on the footpath on my route each way. The worst blackspots are the footpath and platforms along the Luas line between Heuston and Smithfield, then again all along Amiens St. On the south side, if you walk the length of the pedestrian part of Grafton Street at any time of day you will not get from one end to the other without encountering at least a few cyclists, and likewise with the footpath around the perimeter of St. Stephen's Green. I don't have scientific data to back it up, but of the three 'big ones' (cycling on the footpath, breaking red lights and cycling the wrong way on a one-way street), I notice more footpath cycling than anything else. It's a massive nuisance in general (ask anyone who walks daily in Dublin city centre) and a danger especially to anyone who's not able to move fast enough to get out of the way of a rogue footpath cyclist.

I really think the Gardaí need to come down hard to deter footpath cycling as it really is now badly out of hand in Dublin, and I could be wrong but the wording being reported sounds like it's providing an excuse to continue with the current non-enforcement.

I don't accept the argument that 'The roads are too dangerous - it's safer to cycle on the footpath'. While the roads may be scary and dangerous and cycling infrastructure may be lousy, if you're not up to cycling on the roads then either walk or take public transport. Cycling on the footpath should not be considered by anyone to be a valid option for an adult and offenders should be fined in a consistent manner.

Cycling on the road and path is interchangeable by means of the cycling lanes. Sometimes they are on the road others on the path but owing to the deteriorating conditions of cycling lanes on paths it becomes the case that we cycle on paths regardless of a lane or not.

Darkglasses · 02-07-2015 12:12am

KingBrian2 wrote: »

we cycle on paths regardless of a lane or not.

Speak for yourself.

Tenzor07 · 02-07-2015 8:13am

Well now!

Cyclists-who-use-footpaths-will-not-be-fined-

Grandpa Hassan · 02-07-2015 8:40am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well now!

Cyclists-who-use-footpaths-will-not-be-fined-

Makes complete sense. Too tight legislation targeting one class of cyclist screws it for all. A bit like the licensing idea.

This can perfectly adequately be captured under cycling irresponsibly or dangerously. No reason why footpaths have to be specifically mentioned.

Burning Bridges · 02-07-2015 8:44am

Driving into Dublin today , there were several private cars in the Bus/cycle lane, tearing up the Terenure road.

buffalo · 02-07-2015 9:50am

I cycled on the footpath this morning.

On Portland Row, there was a car parked half on the footpath, the other half blocking the cycle lane. The two lanes of car traffic wouldn't leave an extra inch to allow cyclists to pass on the inside, so I confess, I mounted the footpath and scooted around the car. No pedestrians were encountered nor harmed during this manoeuvre.

Where do I send the €50?

JamJamJamJam · 02-07-2015 10:00am

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Would a more sensible approach not be to make it an automatic offence for anyone above the age of 18 (just an example - the age should probably be lower) to cycle on the footpath. Excluding it as a specific offence sounds like a climbdown to avoid having to enforce it.

I generally walk approximately 40 mins to and from work on the north side of Dublin, and most days could count between 10 and 20 people cycling on the footpath on my route each way. The worst blackspots are the footpath and platforms along the Luas line between Heuston and Smithfield, then again all along Amiens St. On the south side, if you walk the length of the pedestrian part of Grafton Street at any time of day you will not get from one end to the other without encountering at least a few cyclists, and likewise with the footpath around the perimeter of St. Stephen's Green. I don't have scientific data to back it up, but of the three 'big ones' (cycling on the footpath, breaking red lights and cycling the wrong way on a one-way street), I notice more footpath cycling than anything else. It's a massive nuisance in general (ask anyone who walks daily in Dublin city centre) and a danger especially to anyone who's not able to move fast enough to get out of the way of a rogue footpath cyclist.

I really think the Gardaí need to come down hard to deter footpath cycling as it really is now badly out of hand in Dublin, and I could be wrong but the wording being reported sounds like it's providing an excuse to continue with the current non-enforcement.

I don't accept the argument that 'The roads are too dangerous - it's safer to cycle on the footpath'. While the roads may be scary and dangerous and cycling infrastructure may be lousy, if you're not up to cycling on the roads then either walk or take public transport. Cycling on the footpath should not be considered by anyone to be a valid option for an adult and offenders should be fined in a consistent manner.

You're right that it's potentially dangerous, but I think there's a vast difference between blazing up the footpath at 20kph on a busy street and rolling along at near-pedestrian speed on a quiet street. In the same way, joggers are potentially dangerous pedestrians, but if they were sprinting the danger is much more considerable. I think cycling with 'due care and attention' covers the issue appropriately.

In fact, I occupy twice the space on the footpath when I dismount and wheel the bike along, especially with the wide handlebars on my hybrid. That always feels like I'm being a much greater inconvenience to other pedestrians.

magicbastarder · 02-07-2015 10:00am

buffalo wrote: »

so I confess, I mounted the footpath and scooted around the car. No pedestrians were encountered nor harmed during this manoeuvre.

you probably made a small tear in the space-time continuum.

Jawgap · 02-07-2015 10:02am

Was on Portland Row this morning and nearly got taken out by a cyclist......

.......I don't think he even saw me.

Skrynesaver · 02-07-2015 10:03am

buffalo wrote: »

I cycled on the footpath this morning.

On Portland Row, there was a car parked half on the footpath, the other half blocking the cycle lane. The two lanes of car traffic wouldn't leave an extra inch to allow cyclists to pass on the inside, so I confess, I mounted the footpath and scooted around the car. No pedestrians were encountered nor harmed during this manoeuvre.

Where do I send the €50?

Outside the Corpo depot emblazoned in DCC livery by any chance?

I'll take the €50 off your hands for you...

JamJamJamJam · 02-07-2015 10:05am

Jawgap wrote: »

Was on Portland Row this morning and nearly got taken out by a cyclist......

.......I don't think he even saw me.

You should have been wearing your hi vis jacket :-P

Jawgap · 02-07-2015 10:22am

JamJamJamJam wrote: »

You should have been wearing your hi vis jacket :-P

RSA and Gardai now encouraging cyclists not to wear hi-viz

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/616535809613762560

magicbastarder · 02-07-2015 10:27am

paschal's message: 'don't shout if you've a tampon in your hand'.

tomasrojo · 02-07-2015 10:28am

Maybe in the mind of the team that came up with the images a "sensible" cyclist that wouldn't be breaking these laws also would have "the sense" to wear hi-viz (and the other accoutrements of safety that are usually mandatory in mainstream depictions of cyclists).

Kind of nice to see these bodies showing "normal" cyclists though.

magicbastarder · 02-07-2015 10:32am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Kind of nice to see these bodies showing "normal" cyclists though.

both posters show female cyclists (well, old school womens frames).

Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

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