Should we be thankful for the crusades?

Saipanne · 26-06-2015 02:50PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Boards really needs an oh fcuk off button.:)

I think that would lead to a dramatic reduction in bans.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 26-06-2015 02:54PM

super_furry wrote: »

Impossible to say. What role did and do the Crusades continue to have in developing the radical Islam mindset?

You'll often hear ISIS members in propaganda videos referring to Europeans as Crusaders.

Pumpkinseeds · 26-06-2015 02:57PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually clearly you are not.

Oh. My. God.

So the Crusaders went to fight the Moors by going in the wrong direction. Or were those Moors in Jerusalem?

Just stop. Please. Read a book. Educate yourself.

Why do you think any of us care whether you've been in a church in the last decade? Has it relevance to your argument or how indifferent you are to religion? LOL

Here ya go sweetheart, maybe you need a little education, I picked something designed for kids, just so you'll understand it.

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Middle Ages

Reconquista and Islam in Spain

History >> Middle Ages for Kids

What was the Reconquista?

The Reconquista is the name given to a long series of wars and battles between the Christian Kingdoms and the Muslim Moors for control of the Iberian Peninsula. It lasted for a good portion of the Middle Ages from 718 to 1492.

What is the Iberian Peninsula?

The Iberian Peninsula is located in the far southwest of Europe. Today the majority of the peninsula includes the countries Spain and Portugal. It is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, and the Pyrenees Mountains.

Who were the Moors?

The Moors were Muslims who lived in the northern African countries of Morocco and Algeria. They called the land of the Iberian Peninsula "Al-Andalus".

The Moors Invade Europe

In 711 the Moors crossed the Mediterranean Sea from North Africa and invaded the Iberian Peninsula. Over the next seven years they advanced into Europe and controlled the majority of the peninsula.

The division of the land before Granada was retaken

Start of the Reconquista

The Reconquista began in 718 when King Pelayo of the Visigoths defeated the Muslim army in Alcama at the Battle of Covadonga. This was the first significant victory of the Christians over the Moors.

Many Battles

Over the next several hundred years the Christians and the Moors would do battle. Charlemagne would halt the Moors advance at the borders of France, but taking back the peninsula would take over 700 years. There were many battles won and lost on both sides. Both sides also experienced internal struggles for power and civil war.

The Catholic Church

During the latter part of the Reconquista it was considered a holy war similar to the Crusades. The Catholic Church wanted the Muslims removed from Europe. Several military orders of the church such as the Order of Santiago and the Knights Templar fought in the Reconquista.

Fall of Granada

After years of fighting, the nation of Spain was united when King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile were married in 1469. The land of Granada was still ruled by the Moors, however. Ferdinand and Isabella then turned their united forces on Grenada, taking it back in 1492 and ending the Reconquista.

The Moors surrendering to Ferdinand and Isabella

Timeline of the Reconquista

711 - The Moors conquer the Iberian Peninsula.
718 - The Reconquista begins with the victory of Pelayo at the Battle of Covadonga.
721 - The Moors are turned back from France with a defeat at the Battle of Toulouse.
791 - King Alfonso II becomes King of Asterieas. He will firmly establish the kingdom in northern Iberia.
930 to 950 - The King of Leon defeats the Moors in several battles.
950 - The Duchy of Castile is established as an independent Christian state.
1085 - Christian warriors capture Toledo.
1086 - The Almoravids arrive from North Africa to help the Moors in pushing back the Christians.
1094 - El Cid takes control of Valencia.
1143 - The Kingdom of Portugal is established.
1236 - By this date half of Iberia had been retaken by Christian forces.
1309 - Fernando IV takes Gibraltar.
1468 - Ferdinand and Isabella unite Castile and Aragon into a single united Spain.
1492 - The Reconquista is complete with the fall of Granada.

Interesting Facts about the Reconquista

During the Second Crusade, Crusaders passing through Portugal helped the Portuguese army to retake Lisbon from the Moors.
The national hero of Spain, El Cid, fought against the Moors and took control of the city of Valencia in 1094.
King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were called the "Catholic Monarchs".
It was Ferdinand and Isabella who authorized the expedition of Christopher Columbus in 1492.
After the Reconquista, Muslims and Jews who lived in Spain were forced to convert to Christianity or they were expelled from the country.

Take a ten question quiz at the Reconquista questions page.

More subjects on the Middle Ages:

Overview
Timeline
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Glossary and Terms

Knights and Castles
Becoming a Knight
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Knight's coat of arms
Tournaments, Jousts, and Chivalry

Culture
Daily Life in the Middle Ages
Middle Ages Art and Literature
The Catholic Church and Cathedrals
Entertainment and Music
The King's Court

Major Events
The Black Death
The Crusades
Hundred Years War
Magna Carta
Norman Conquest of 1066
Reconquista of Spain
Wars of the Roses

Nations
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People
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History >> Middle Ages for Kids

jam_mac_jam · 26-06-2015 02:59PM

topper75 wrote: »

True.

The 'spread of Islam' did breathe in Europe's letterbox though at a later date when the Turks moved toward Vienna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Vienna

This is one of the most pivotal events in entire history of Europe in my opinion. Yet none of my schoolteachers ever even referred to it.

I could not morally justify the crusades. But, I'm not religious so ...

For other really important stuff that our Western-Euro focused school curricula don't address, read A Little History of the World by E. H. Gombrich.

I agree with you but I was thinking more of Spain.

The Corinthian · 26-06-2015 03:01PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

What was the Reconquista?

And there was I thinking that we were discussing the Crusades. Yup, even you said that "Crusades was essentially the Catholic church versus the Moors" - nothing about the Reconquista.

I do wish computers had a button that allowed you to slap the person you're replying to with a dead haddock whenever they post something really, really stupid.

Muckracker · 26-06-2015 03:45PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Here ya go sweetheart, maybe you need a little education, I picked something designed for kids, just so you'll understand it.

Just so you know, you're not coming across as cool and as funny as you think you are.

TomBtheGoat · 26-06-2015 03:53PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

Absolutely not. When the Crusaders first took Jerusalem, they indiscriminately massacred Christians, Jews and Muslims with abandon. Prior to that, those three main religions coexisted peacefully. The Crusaders had a lot of blood on their hands and they sowed the seeds for the centuries of religious warfare to come. You reap what you sow and to this day, their barbarity is still remembered in the Middle East.

Muckracker · 26-06-2015 03:58PM

Anyone interested in history should read up on the First Crusade, fascinating (and brutal) stuff. The fact that they reached Jerusalem is remarkable.

crockholm · 26-06-2015 04:05PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

Absolutely not. When the Crusaders first took Jerusalem, they indiscriminately massacred Christians, Jews and Muslims with abandon. Prior to that, those three main religions coexisted peacefully. The Crusaders had a lot of blood on their hands and they sowed the seeds for the centuries of religious warfare to come. You reap what you sow and to this day, their barbarity is still remembered in the Middle East.

I really don't know where this canard of everyone coexisting peacefully under a benign caliphate comes from,from the initial conquest of Jerusalem in the 630's by the invading Arabs to the First crusade,lots of really awful things were done in that city under muslim patronage.Sackings of holy sites,both Xtian and Jewish (ever wonder how the Jews felt about the dome of the rock being built in the holy of holies?),Massacres, expulsions,Jizya taxes-it had it all.

The long history of Jerusalem is more complex than good and bad guys-from it's very beginnings it seemed destined to be ruled by assholes in the name of the almighty.

The Corinthian · 26-06-2015 04:14PM

crockholm wrote: »

I really don't know where this canard of everyone coexisting peacefully under a benign caliphate comes from,from the initial conquest of Jerusalem in the 630's by the invading Arabs to the First crusade,lots of really awful things were done in that city under muslim patronage.Sackings of holy sites,both Xtian and Jewish (ever wonder how the Jews felt about the dome of the rock being built in the holy of holies?),Massacres, expulsions,Jizya taxes-it had it all.

I think it's some sort of white man's guilt revisionism, kind of thing - Ridley Scott's film Kingdom of Heaven really laid that nonsense on thick. In reality, life under the Saracens was on balance better than under the Crusaders, but there wasn't much between them. Both were more than happy to indulge in atrocities and persecutions.

The long history of Jerusalem is more complex than good and bad guys-from it's very beginnings it seemed destined to be ruled by assholes in the name of the almighty.

Basically. That city is cursed.

dpofloinn · 26-06-2015 04:18PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

As opposed to the Catholic church in the 21st century who still won't permit the use of condoms among Catholics, despite the situation in Africa with Aids and HIV? All religions have their flaws, I'm not promoting one or the other. But back in the days of the Crusades, if I'd to put my life in the hands of Moorish doctor or an English doctor I'd have chosen the Moor.

Sorry to burst your bubble there Captain Hindsight, but no you wouldn't. You would have lived in a time when the majority of folk would have been been completely ignorant of the world around them .You most likely would live and die within a hundred yards of where you were born. Chances are you would in your lifetime not travel any further than the boundary lines of your parish. Combine that with a fear of outsiders and a life completely ruled by the church. You would have killed that Moorish Doctor long before he had the chance to cure you.

jam_mac_jam · 26-06-2015 04:21PM

Moors are from North Africa anyway, not really much to do with the crusades... why is everyone going on about moors...

dpofloinn · 26-06-2015 04:25PM

Because there is a parallel between the OPs question on Islamic expansion and the Moorish expansion into Spain and their eventual expulsion by the christian Spanish

Muckracker · 26-06-2015 04:26PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think it's some sort of white man's guilt revisionism, kind of thing - Ridley Scott's film Kingdom of Heaven really laid that nonsense on thick. In reality, life under the Saracens was on balance better than under the Crusaders, but there wasn't much between them. Both were more than happy to indulge in atrocities and persecutions.

Basically. That city is cursed.

Didn't that film end with Saladin letting the Christians leave Jerusalem when in reality they were sold into slavery?

Not a NSA agent · 26-06-2015 04:37PM

Without the crusades we could have had a majority religion which has a low view on women, gay people and anyone who doesnt follow their religion. Thanks to the crusades we ended up with...oh

26-06-2015 04:41PM

Well the crusades laid the groundwork for the two world wars if you follow the timelines of the teutonic order

melissak · 26-06-2015 05:41PM

No

RobertKK wrote: »

The crusades were mainly a reaction to the spread of Islam. They are often viewed as being something bad, while positive arguments are ignored.

Does anyone believe we would have the freedoms we have, if the crusades had not happened and the spread of Islam into Europe had not been stopped?
Taking this further, did the crusades stop the rest of the world from being converted to Islam?
For example, the Americas, parts of Australasia, where Europeans went and it was Christianity that became the dominant religion.

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

melissak · 26-06-2015 05:44PM

No

RobertKK wrote: »

The crusades were mainly a reaction to the spread of Islam. They are often viewed as being something bad, while positive arguments are ignored.

Does anyone believe we would have the freedoms we have, if the crusades had not happened and the spread of Islam into Europe had not been stopped?
Taking this further, did the crusades stop the rest of the world from being converted to Islam?
For example, the Americas, parts of Australasia, where Europeans went and it was Christianity that became the dominant religion.

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

The Corinthian · 26-06-2015 05:48PM

dpofloinn wrote: »

Because there is a parallel between the OPs question on Islamic expansion and the Moorish expansion into Spain and their eventual expulsion by the christian Spanish

No, the Moors were brought up by someone who confused the Reconquista with the Crusades and called them as such.

TBH, this entire thread has been started by an OP who had no clue of the history behind the Crusades and was then further fueled by the historical tripe of numerous other ignoramuses.

Muckracker wrote: »

Didn't that film end with Saladin letting the Christians leave Jerusalem when in reality they were sold into slavery?

Yup. Well the poor. The rich were able to ransom themselves.

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

Without the crusades we could have had a majority religion which has a low view on women, gay people and anyone who doesnt follow their religion. Thanks to the crusades we ended up with...oh

Ironically, the Ottoman Empire decriminalised homosexuality in 1858.

England and Wales did so in 1967, Scotland in 1981, NI in 1982, Ireland in 1993 and even the USA only fully decriminalised it in 2003.

titan18 · 26-06-2015 06:18PM

This thread is kind of funny. At least The Corinthian knew what he was talking about.

Eugene Norman · 26-06-2015 06:21PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, the Moors were brought up by someone who confused the Reconquista with the Crusades and called them as such.

TBH, this entire thread has been started by an OP who had no clue of the history behind the Crusades and was then further fueled by the historical tripe of numerous other ignoramuses.

Yup. Well the poor. The rich were able to ransom themselves.

Ironically, the Ottoman Empire decriminalised homosexuality in 1858.

England and Wales did so in 1967, Scotland in 1981, NI in 1982, Ireland in 1993 and even the USA only fully decriminalised it in 2003.

And France in 1789. Turkey then did go on to commit an actual real genocide, unlike the minor mediaeval skirmishes that were the crusades

Eugene Norman · 26-06-2015 06:26PM

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

Absolutely not. When the Crusaders first took Jerusalem, they indiscriminately massacred Christians, Jews and Muslims with abandon. Prior to that, those three main religions coexisted peacefully. The Crusaders had a lot of blood on their hands and they sowed the seeds for the centuries of religious warfare to come. You reap what you sow and to this day, their barbarity is still remembered in the Middle East.

That killing wouldn't really have been remembered were it not for recent events. In world history it's minuscule, merely 2000 people.

Nor were the crusades genocidal.

The really history of the conflicts between Islam and the West ( or Christianity) is one of massive retrenchment by the Christians, not just in Europe but in North Africa, the Levant etc. the crusades were a blip in that on going conflict.

pablomakaveli · 26-06-2015 06:52PM

A lot of people seem to forget what came before the crusades. Its usually portrayed as an unprovoked attack by Christians on Muslims. However keep in mind before the crusades we had the Islamic conquests of North Africa, Spain , Sicily and parts of the Byzantine Empire. The crusades were inevitable really. Both sides were as bad as each other.

The_Valeyard · 26-06-2015 07:30PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

And France in 1789. Turkey then did go on to commit an actual real genocide, unlike the minor mediaeval skirmishes that were the crusades

The Armenian genocide? When people think genocide they ususly think of a massacre over a short space of time, what happened to the Armenian population happened over 6-7 years.

Genocides and 'crusades' of sorts have happened all throughout history.

Son Of A Vidic · 27-06-2015 01:38PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

For what? Military adventure, personal glory and all in the name of religion. No thanks. Murder in the name of any religion, is not something to ever be thankfully for or celebrated.

RDM_83 again · 27-06-2015 01:53PM

Its not mentioned much but there was some level of religious tolerance in the crusader states too, there is a passage by a Muslim chronicler mentioning worshipping at a site being let in by Templars "who were my friends"

ScumLord · 27-06-2015 02:02PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

A lot of people seem to forget what came before the crusades.

Well it was a long time ago and the memory isn't what it used to be.

suicide_circus · 27-06-2015 02:29PM

I do appreciate the efforts of the people Vienna and the Chtistisan coalition in halting the advance if the Ottomans in 1529.

bnt · 27-06-2015 04:35PM

The Crusades weren't about "stopping the spread of Islam", they were explicitly about conquering the "Holy Land" for Christianity. The conquest of Spain - much closer to Rome and England - wasn't as much of a concern by comparison. Remember that folks back then didn't have the luxury of a "big picture" view that we do.

I partly blame the Crusades for causing Islam to turn inwards and become more dogmatic and defensive. I say "partly" because the Mongols under Genghis Khan did far more damage in this regard, conquering huge swathes of territory in the East of the Islamic world. They had been relatively open and progressive before that, making significant advances in science and culture. As a result of those onslaughts on the Islamic world, they developed a siege mentality, and hardiners took over.

SaveOurLyric · 27-06-2015 05:13PM

The world would be a better place without the problem of Islam.
If the crusades stemmed is spread, then I guess, yes, they were a good thing.

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

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