Should we be thankful for the crusades?

RobertKK

The crusades were mainly a reaction to the spread of Islam. They are often viewed as being something bad, while positive arguments are ignored.

Does anyone believe we would have the freedoms we have, if the crusades had not happened and the spread of Islam into Europe had not been stopped?
Taking this further, did the crusades stop the rest of the world from being converted to Islam?
For example, the Americas, parts of Australasia, where Europeans went and it was Christianity that became the dominant religion.

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

The Diabolical Monocle

Its a fair point. Thought about this before and its kind of the lesser of two evils in a sense.
Obviously if you're a native American from history in Peru or wherever getting a colonial sword in the face its not too appealing, but then again we could have ended up with a world of burkas and stonings for the very long term.

Short term pain long term gain.

ScumLord

Europe was coming into it's own at the time, even though the Muslims made their way through a lot of Spain and France they could only really get away with it because the European nations hadn't consolidated themselves into organised groups. Once France got the slightest bit of organisation into it's military it drove the Islamic invaders out.

Maybe it could be argued it gave European states the push it needed to create the powerful nations still around today but I don't think the Islamic empire would have made it too far into Europe.

The crusades were little better than large scale viking raids, they might have drawn a line in the sand that made the middle eastern countries second guess going anywhere near Europe but it also created a long term blood feud between Christians and Muslims that we're still suffering through today. The things the Crusaders did was disgusting, they went on a killing spree killing everyone they came across.

wes

I am sure there will be some fools who will say the same about 9/11 or something several 100 years from now, and go on about those awful westerners and what not.

Pumpkinseeds

The Moors were far more advanced in Science and Medicine than the Europeans. At the time of the Crusades most European countries still thought it was unhealthy to wash themselves or their clothing. So no, I don't think we should be grateful for the slaughter of people based on religious beliefs, politics and greed.

Dravokivich

Would you be thankful for the Crusades if you weren't Christian?

TwoShedsJackson

Should we be thankful for an attempted genocide inspired by religion? I'm going to go with no.

wes

Does this include the crusades against the wrong type of Christians btw. Constantinople was sacked by crusaders. Crusaders also wiped out another European Christian sect the Cathars. Not to mention atrocities against Jews as well.

The crusaders actually share a lot in common with ISIS, both frame there many atrocities as being "defensive", but there actions show this to be complete and utter nonsense. Both are/were genocidal fanatics, and the fact that both groups have there defenders is utterly bizarre.

wes

Dravokivich wrote: »

Would you be thankful for the Crusades if you weren't Christian?

Remember you had to be the right kind of Christian as well.

Oink

Stop me if I'm wrong but was the whole point of the crusades not to keep a host of murderous hooligans entertained? I mean, the whole idea was to get all them fighting nobles to go fight somewhere else. So they just told them hey, why don't you go save Jerusalem or something. It wasn't about saving Europe from the Moors, it was about get our own idiots out of the place.

Saipanne

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

The Moors were far more advanced in Science and Medicine than the Europeans.

Islam. The finest minds of the 11th century.

The Diabolical Monocle

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

The Moors were far more advanced in Science and Medicine than the Europeans. At the time of the Crusades most European countries still thought it was unhealthy to wash themselves or their clothing. So no, I don't think we should be grateful for the slaughter of people based on religious beliefs, politics and greed.

Looks obvious at first ... But given the option of that or a giant caliphate for centuries it gets a bit tricky.

ScumLord

wes wrote: »

The crusaders actually share a lot in common with ISIS,

They were a lot worse than ISIS. Image if you heard there were thousands of armed Muslims marching towards Europe with the intent of rampaging through cities killing men, women and children. It would be terrifying.

super_furry

Impossible to say. What role did and do the Crusades continue to have in developing the radical Islam mindset?

wes

ScumLord wrote: »

They were a lot worse than ISIS. Image if you heard there were thousands of armed Muslims marching towards Europe with the intent of rampaging through cities killing men, women and children. It would be terrifying.

Fair point, I was talking more in the ideological sense. In that they claim to be acting in defense of there people, and then end up murdering just as many of there own.

wp_rathead

Ya we got to take their more advanced science and medicine and use it to Europes advantage
Oh and got taste some their spices
All it took was the near 20 million deaths - so ya totally am grateful

buried

Total utter gibberish. The first crusade was created by Urban II in order to help Constantinople reclaim parts of Anatolia. Then the Frankish barons went on the offensive straight into the middle east and Jerusalem to seek bounty and land for themselves. Both Islamic caliphates in the middle east at the time had no intention of 'spreading Islam'.

jam_mac_jam

The crusades were nothing to do with the spread of Islam and didn't stop the spread of Islam.

What are you on about?

Saipanne

Did he mean the efforts of Charlemagne?

buried

Saipanne wrote: »

Did he mean the efforts of Charlemagne?

Charles Martel he could be on about. Charlemagne's grandfather.

The Corinthian

RobertKK wrote: »

Does anyone believe we would have the freedoms we have, if the crusades had not happened and the spread of Islam into Europe had not been stopped?

If you do believe this then you really need to study history more.

The crusades were concentrated on the defense of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire and the 'liberation' of the Holy Land. They also ended long before Islamic expansion did, they were already petering out by the 14th century and effectively came to an end with the fall of Constantinople 1453. The expansion of Islam, instead was halted at the battle of Vienna over two centuries later in 1683.

Did they help to slow down expansion? In reality they helped speed it up, because in running to the 'defense' of Byzantine Empire, the Crusaders also managed to sack it more than once, install at least one 'Latin' dynasty and overall weaken an already weakened power from eventual invasion from the Ottomans.

Islam was ultimately stopped by a number of factors. Europe, originally trailing in terms of knowledge and learning, overtook the Islamic World, thanks to the Renaissance and, later, the Enlightenment. And the Islamic World became fractured and balkanized, with the Ottomans eventually becoming the dominant power, but never having the same success of the original Islamic expansion.

In short, it really didn't have much, if anything, to do with the Crusades at all, so your entire thesis is flawed and just based on a lack of historical knowledge.

Pumpkinseeds

Saipanne wrote: »

Islam. The finest minds of the 11th century.

As opposed to the Catholic church in the 21st century who still won't permit the use of condoms among Catholics, despite the situation in Africa with Aids and HIV? All religions have their flaws, I'm not promoting one or the other. But back in the days of the Crusades, if I'd to put my life in the hands of Moorish doctor or an English doctor I'd have chosen the Moor.

Saipanne

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

As opposed to the Catholic church in the 21st century who still won't permit the use of condoms among Catholics, despite the situation in Africa with Aids and HIV? All religions have their flaws, I'm not promoting one or the other. But back in the days of the Crusades, if I'd to put my life in the hands of Moorish doctor or an English doctor I'd have chosen the Moor.

If you can find a single post anywhere where I defend or support any abrahamic religion I'll meet you in person and bow at your feet.

Otherwise, FO.

The Corinthian

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

As opposed to the Catholic church in the 21st century who still won't permit the use of condoms among Catholics, despite the situation in Africa with Aids and HIV? All religions have their flaws, I'm not promoting one or the other. But back in the days of the Crusades, if I'd to put my life in the hands of Moorish doctor or an English doctor I'd have chosen the Moor.

LOL. Sure, you definitely didn't give any indication of which religion you really hate in your last post.

crockholm

Oink wrote: »

Stop me if I'm wrong but was the whole point of the crusades not to keep a host of murderous hooligans entertained? I mean, the whole idea was to get all them fighting nobles to go fight somewhere else. So they just told them hey, why don't you go save Jerusalem or something. It wasn't about saving Europe from the Moors, it was about get our own idiots out of the place.

OK, I'll stop you.You are wrong.Very wrong historically.It may pass for"A man in a pub told me..." type history,but that would be it.

crockholm

ScumLord wrote: »

They were a lot worse than ISIS. Image if you heard there were thousands of armed Muslims marching towards Europe with the intent of rampaging through cities killing men, women and children. It would be terrifying.

You ought to read the history of the Balkans then.

Pumpkinseeds

The Corinthian wrote: »

LOL. Sure, you definitely didn't give any indication of which religion you really hate in your last post.

I don't particulary hate any religion, if anything I'm indifferent to them. I'm merely being specific as the Crusades was essentially the Catholic church versus the Moors, using the Spanish monarchy to do it's dirty work. In terms of medicine, the Moors had learning and were much more advanced in medicine than the English who pretty much used leeches and bleeding as a cure for everything. I haven't been inside a church for at least a decade.

The Corinthian

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I don't particulary hate any religion, if anything I'm indifferent to them.

Actually clearly you are not.

I'm merely being specific as the Crusades was essentially the Catholic church versus the Moors, using the Spanish monarchy to do it's dirty work. In terms of medicine, the Moors had learning and were much more advanced in medicine than the English who pretty much used leeches and bleeding as a cure for everything.

Oh. My. God.

So the Crusaders went to fight the Moors by going in the wrong direction. Or were those Moors in Jerusalem?

Just stop. Please. Read a book. Educate yourself.

I haven't been inside a church for at least a decade.

Why do you think any of us care whether you've been in a church in the last decade? Has it relevance to your argument or how indifferent you are to religion? LOL

Irish Praetorian

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ya we got to take their more advanced science and medicine and use it to Europes advantage
Oh and got taste some their spices
All it took was the near 20 million deaths - so ya totally am grateful

Think you've tossed an extra 0 in there by mistake.

Pumpkinseeds

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually clearly you are not.

Oh. My. God.

So the Crusaders went to fight the Moors by going in the wrong direction. Or were those Moors in Jerusalem?

Just stop. Please. Read a book. Educate yourself.

Why do you think any of us care whether you've been in a church in the last decade? Has it relevance to your argument or how indifferent you are to religion? LOL

Boards really needs an oh fcuk off button.:)

topper75

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The crusades were nothing to do with the spread of Islam and didn't stop the spread of Islam.

What are you on about?

True.

The 'spread of Islam' did breathe in Europe's letterbox though at a later date when the Turks moved toward Vienna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Vienna

This is one of the most pivotal events in entire history of Europe in my opinion. Yet none of my schoolteachers ever even referred to it.

I could not morally justify the crusades. But, I'm not religious so ...

For other really important stuff that our Western-Euro focused school curricula don't address, read A Little History of the World by E. H. Gombrich.

Saipanne

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Boards really needs an oh fcuk off button.:)

I think that would lead to a dramatic reduction in bans.

DEFTLEFTHAND

super_furry wrote: »

Impossible to say. What role did and do the Crusades continue to have in developing the radical Islam mindset?

You'll often hear ISIS members in propaganda videos referring to Europeans as Crusaders.

Pumpkinseeds

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually clearly you are not.

Oh. My. God.

So the Crusaders went to fight the Moors by going in the wrong direction. Or were those Moors in Jerusalem?

Just stop. Please. Read a book. Educate yourself.

Why do you think any of us care whether you've been in a church in the last decade? Has it relevance to your argument or how indifferent you are to religion? LOL

Here ya go sweetheart, maybe you need a little education, I picked something designed for kids, just so you'll understand it.

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Middle Ages

Reconquista and Islam in Spain

History >> Middle Ages for Kids

What was the Reconquista?

The Reconquista is the name given to a long series of wars and battles between the Christian Kingdoms and the Muslim Moors for control of the Iberian Peninsula. It lasted for a good portion of the Middle Ages from 718 to 1492.

What is the Iberian Peninsula?

The Iberian Peninsula is located in the far southwest of Europe. Today the majority of the peninsula includes the countries Spain and Portugal. It is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, and the Pyrenees Mountains.

Who were the Moors?

The Moors were Muslims who lived in the northern African countries of Morocco and Algeria. They called the land of the Iberian Peninsula "Al-Andalus".

The Moors Invade Europe

In 711 the Moors crossed the Mediterranean Sea from North Africa and invaded the Iberian Peninsula. Over the next seven years they advanced into Europe and controlled the majority of the peninsula.

The division of the land before Granada was retaken

Start of the Reconquista

The Reconquista began in 718 when King Pelayo of the Visigoths defeated the Muslim army in Alcama at the Battle of Covadonga. This was the first significant victory of the Christians over the Moors.

Many Battles

Over the next several hundred years the Christians and the Moors would do battle. Charlemagne would halt the Moors advance at the borders of France, but taking back the peninsula would take over 700 years. There were many battles won and lost on both sides. Both sides also experienced internal struggles for power and civil war.

The Catholic Church

During the latter part of the Reconquista it was considered a holy war similar to the Crusades. The Catholic Church wanted the Muslims removed from Europe. Several military orders of the church such as the Order of Santiago and the Knights Templar fought in the Reconquista.

Fall of Granada

After years of fighting, the nation of Spain was united when King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile were married in 1469. The land of Granada was still ruled by the Moors, however. Ferdinand and Isabella then turned their united forces on Grenada, taking it back in 1492 and ending the Reconquista.

The Moors surrendering to Ferdinand and Isabella

Timeline of the Reconquista

• 711 - The Moors conquer the Iberian Peninsula.
• 718 - The Reconquista begins with the victory of Pelayo at the Battle of Covadonga.
• 721 - The Moors are turned back from France with a defeat at the Battle of Toulouse.
• 791 - King Alfonso II becomes King of Asterieas. He will firmly establish the kingdom in northern Iberia.
• 930 to 950 - The King of Leon defeats the Moors in several battles.
• 950 - The Duchy of Castile is established as an independent Christian state.
• 1085 - Christian warriors capture Toledo.
• 1086 - The Almoravids arrive from North Africa to help the Moors in pushing back the Christians.
• 1094 - El Cid takes control of Valencia.
• 1143 - The Kingdom of Portugal is established.
• 1236 - By this date half of Iberia had been retaken by Christian forces.
• 1309 - Fernando IV takes Gibraltar.
• 1468 - Ferdinand and Isabella unite Castile and Aragon into a single united Spain.
• 1492 - The Reconquista is complete with the fall of Granada.

Interesting Facts about the Reconquista

• During the Second Crusade, Crusaders passing through Portugal helped the Portuguese army to retake Lisbon from the Moors.
• The national hero of Spain, El Cid, fought against the Moors and took control of the city of Valencia in 1094.
• King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were called the "Catholic Monarchs".
• It was Ferdinand and Isabella who authorized the expedition of Christopher Columbus in 1492.
• After the Reconquista, Muslims and Jews who lived in Spain were forced to convert to Christianity or they were expelled from the country.

Take a ten question quiz at the Reconquista questions page.

More subjects on the Middle Ages:

Overview
Timeline
Feudal System
Guilds
Medieval Monasteries
Glossary and Terms

Knights and Castles
Becoming a Knight
Castles
History of Knights
Knight's Armor and Weapons
Knight's coat of arms
Tournaments, Jousts, and Chivalry

Culture
Daily Life in the Middle Ages
Middle Ages Art and Literature
The Catholic Church and Cathedrals
Entertainment and Music
The King's Court

Major Events
The Black Death
The Crusades
Hundred Years War
Magna Carta
Norman Conquest of 1066
Reconquista of Spain
Wars of the Roses

Nations
Anglo-Saxons
Byzantine Empire
The Franks
Kievan Rus
Vikings for kids

People
Alfred the Great
Charlemagne
Genghis Khan
Joan of Arc
Justinian I
Marco Polo
Saint Francis of Assisi
William the Conqueror
Famous Queens



History >> Middle Ages for Kids

jam_mac_jam

topper75 wrote: »

True.

The 'spread of Islam' did breathe in Europe's letterbox though at a later date when the Turks moved toward Vienna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Vienna

This is one of the most pivotal events in entire history of Europe in my opinion. Yet none of my schoolteachers ever even referred to it.

I could not morally justify the crusades. But, I'm not religious so ...

For other really important stuff that our Western-Euro focused school curricula don't address, read A Little History of the World by E. H. Gombrich.

I agree with you but I was thinking more of Spain.

The Corinthian

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

What was the Reconquista?

And there was I thinking that we were discussing the Crusades. Yup, even you said that "Crusades was essentially the Catholic church versus the Moors" - nothing about the Reconquista.

I do wish computers had a button that allowed you to slap the person you're replying to with a dead haddock whenever they post something really, really stupid.

Muckracker

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Here ya go sweetheart, maybe you need a little education, I picked something designed for kids, just so you'll understand it.

Just so you know, you're not coming across as cool and as funny as you think you are.

TomBtheGoat

RobertKK wrote: »

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

Absolutely not. When the Crusaders first took Jerusalem, they indiscriminately massacred Christians, Jews and Muslims with abandon. Prior to that, those three main religions coexisted peacefully. The Crusaders had a lot of blood on their hands and they sowed the seeds for the centuries of religious warfare to come. You reap what you sow and to this day, their barbarity is still remembered in the Middle East.

Muckracker

Anyone interested in history should read up on the First Crusade, fascinating (and brutal) stuff. The fact that they reached Jerusalem is remarkable.

crockholm

TomBtheGoat wrote: »

Absolutely not. When the Crusaders first took Jerusalem, they indiscriminately massacred Christians, Jews and Muslims with abandon. Prior to that, those three main religions coexisted peacefully. The Crusaders had a lot of blood on their hands and they sowed the seeds for the centuries of religious warfare to come. You reap what you sow and to this day, their barbarity is still remembered in the Middle East.

I really don't know where this canard of everyone coexisting peacefully under a benign caliphate comes from,from the initial conquest of Jerusalem in the 630's by the invading Arabs to the First crusade,lots of really awful things were done in that city under muslim patronage.Sackings of holy sites,both Xtian and Jewish (ever wonder how the Jews felt about the dome of the rock being built in the holy of holies?),Massacres, expulsions,Jizya taxes-it had it all.

The long history of Jerusalem is more complex than good and bad guys-from it's very beginnings it seemed destined to be ruled by assholes in the name of the almighty.

The Corinthian

crockholm wrote: »

I really don't know where this canard of everyone coexisting peacefully under a benign caliphate comes from,from the initial conquest of Jerusalem in the 630's by the invading Arabs to the First crusade,lots of really awful things were done in that city under muslim patronage.Sackings of holy sites,both Xtian and Jewish (ever wonder how the Jews felt about the dome of the rock being built in the holy of holies?),Massacres, expulsions,Jizya taxes-it had it all.

I think it's some sort of white man's guilt revisionism, kind of thing - Ridley Scott's film Kingdom of Heaven really laid that nonsense on thick. In reality, life under the Saracens was on balance better than under the Crusaders, but there wasn't much between them. Both were more than happy to indulge in atrocities and persecutions.

The long history of Jerusalem is more complex than good and bad guys-from it's very beginnings it seemed destined to be ruled by assholes in the name of the almighty.

Basically. That city is cursed.

dpofloinn

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

As opposed to the Catholic church in the 21st century who still won't permit the use of condoms among Catholics, despite the situation in Africa with Aids and HIV? All religions have their flaws, I'm not promoting one or the other. But back in the days of the Crusades, if I'd to put my life in the hands of Moorish doctor or an English doctor I'd have chosen the Moor.

Sorry to burst your bubble there Captain Hindsight, but no you wouldn't. You would have lived in a time when the majority of folk would have been been completely ignorant of the world around them .You most likely would live and die within a hundred yards of where you were born. Chances are you would in your lifetime not travel any further than the boundary lines of your parish. Combine that with a fear of outsiders and a life completely ruled by the church. You would have killed that Moorish Doctor long before he had the chance to cure you.

jam_mac_jam

Moors are from North Africa anyway, not really much to do with the crusades... why is everyone going on about moors...

dpofloinn

Because there is a parallel between the OPs question on Islamic expansion and the Moorish expansion into Spain and their eventual expulsion by the christian Spanish

Muckracker

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think it's some sort of white man's guilt revisionism, kind of thing - Ridley Scott's film Kingdom of Heaven really laid that nonsense on thick. In reality, life under the Saracens was on balance better than under the Crusaders, but there wasn't much between them. Both were more than happy to indulge in atrocities and persecutions.

Basically. That city is cursed.

Didn't that film end with Saladin letting the Christians leave Jerusalem when in reality they were sold into slavery?

Not a NSA agent

Without the crusades we could have had a majority religion which has a low view on women, gay people and anyone who doesnt follow their religion. Thanks to the crusades we ended up with...oh

riffmongous

Well the crusades laid the groundwork for the two world wars if you follow the timelines of the teutonic order

melissak

No

RobertKK wrote: »

The crusades were mainly a reaction to the spread of Islam. They are often viewed as being something bad, while positive arguments are ignored.

Does anyone believe we would have the freedoms we have, if the crusades had not happened and the spread of Islam into Europe had not been stopped?
Taking this further, did the crusades stop the rest of the world from being converted to Islam?
For example, the Americas, parts of Australasia, where Europeans went and it was Christianity that became the dominant religion.

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

melissak

No

RobertKK wrote: »

The crusades were mainly a reaction to the spread of Islam. They are often viewed as being something bad, while positive arguments are ignored.

Does anyone believe we would have the freedoms we have, if the crusades had not happened and the spread of Islam into Europe had not been stopped?
Taking this further, did the crusades stop the rest of the world from being converted to Islam?
For example, the Americas, parts of Australasia, where Europeans went and it was Christianity that became the dominant religion.

Should we be thankful for the crusades?

The Corinthian

dpofloinn wrote: »

Because there is a parallel between the OPs question on Islamic expansion and the Moorish expansion into Spain and their eventual expulsion by the christian Spanish

No, the Moors were brought up by someone who confused the Reconquista with the Crusades and called them as such.

TBH, this entire thread has been started by an OP who had no clue of the history behind the Crusades and was then further fueled by the historical tripe of numerous other ignoramuses.

Muckracker wrote: »

Didn't that film end with Saladin letting the Christians leave Jerusalem when in reality they were sold into slavery?

Yup. Well the poor. The rich were able to ransom themselves.

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

Without the crusades we could have had a majority religion which has a low view on women, gay people and anyone who doesnt follow their religion. Thanks to the crusades we ended up with...oh

Ironically, the Ottoman Empire decriminalised homosexuality in 1858.

England and Wales did so in 1967, Scotland in 1981, NI in 1982, Ireland in 1993 and even the USA only fully decriminalised it in 2003.

titan18

This thread is kind of funny. At least The Corinthian knew what he was talking about.